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Hey Vale, has this brutal silver market taken Tulving out? - Page 8
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Thread: Hey Vale, has this brutal silver market taken Tulving out?

  1. #71
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    Things sure are slowing down in the Tulving bankruptcy. I wonder how his other legal problems are progressing?

    Claims Pass $5,000,000

    July 10, 2014 7:40AM EST
    I have heard from the court that yesterday claims in The Tulving Company's bankruptcy passed $5,000,000, with about 118 customers (and 5 other creditors, such as Ford, the IRS, and a bank).
    Estimating the total claims filed is very inaccurate, as it is very difficult to predict how many people will file Proof of Claim forms based on how many have been filed so far. That said, if claims continue at the rate that they have for the past 1-2 weeks (higher than previously, perhaps now that I have explained that all creditors must file a Proof of Claim form to get any money), there would be around 275 creditors with total claims of about $11M. That would be much less than the up to 1,000 creditors with $40M in claims that I was estimating. I cannot say whether this estimate is way off (it could be), whether the actual number of creditors is much less than I thought, whether creditors are waiting to file, or whether there are many creditors not willing to file (prefering privacy over money).

    As a reminder, Proof of Claim forms must be received by the court by September 30, 2014.



    Ford Gets the Van


    July 10, 2014 7:20AM EST
    Yesterday, there was a hearing to determine if Ford could repossess the Ford E-350 SD van that Tulving bought in in November, 2010. There had been no objections.
    Ford is owed $13,384.17, and valued the van at $14,400. It should have a negligible impact on the assets available to creditors, as I was not treating the van as having value (since we have known of Ford's secured interest in it for a long time), and the value of the van is so close to what is owed.



    California Payroll Tax Owed

    July 4, 2014 7:45AM EST
    The State of California has put in a claim for $9,888.54 for unpaid taxes ($8,989.5 and a 10% penalty ($898.96).
    This is for the period January 1, 2014 through March 10, 2014. It covers SDI, PIT, UI, and ETT payroll taxes. The majority of the claim is a priority claim (priority claims get paid in full before any non-priority claims get paid).

    Aside from this claim, the other claims by non-customers so far have totaled under $3,000 (except for Ford that is owed a bit over $13,000, but has the truck as security, which should cover most or all of what they are owed), including the IRS claim.
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  2. #72
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    Just when you thought all that Silver you bought was hidden from everyone's eye's, oh crap!!! Unless you've paid in cash with no name on a sales receipt, you most likely have records of your transactions in someone's data base. Which may never be a problem, but if the government ever "needs" your Silver, they will probably gather up all that data base information and have the IRS settle things. After all the IRS gets to use their own set of rules and they won't care about your losses on the Titanic. If you can't cough up the Silver we have proof you bought and we know you never reported selling any, then you owe us umpteen thousand extra this year. Otherwise you'll need to rent a deep sea diving suit and metal detector.

    Bare minimum, how much will all that private information be worth to other precious metal dealers. It's not like Tulving has a list of people buying five ounces at a time, but a minimum of 500 ounces.




    Customer List to be Auctioned for $150K+

    August 8, 2014 8:40AM EST
    R. Todd Neilson, the bankruptcy trustee, has filed a motion (Docket #158, #159) to sell the Tulving customer list (along with domain name, phone number, customer order records, etc.) for $150,000 (or a higher amount, if a higher bidder is found at an auction). He has already had discusssions with 4 other interested parties.
    While this sounds good, there is one part that concerns me. A footnote refers to 363(b)(1), which (in general) prohibits the sale of personally identifiable information in a bankruptcy if the debtor had a policy of prohibiting such transfers, unless a consumer privacy ombudsman is appointed and approves the sale. Mr. Neilson stated that he believes that no such policy exists. This surprised me, due to the extreme privacy constraints of many bullion buyers. I could not believe Tulving would not have had made statements regarding privacy.

    In under a minute, I found that the Tulving website on many pages discussing specific types of bullion coins stated "Privacy Policy... We have no commissioned salesmen looking at your records. We have no telemarketers. We do not sell your private personal information to 3rd parties. We only use the personal information that is provided to us to serve our customers and to complete our business transactions. ... If you have any questions regarding our policies and practice’s you can call us at 800-995-1708 Or E-Mail hannes@tulving.com or write us at..."

    Having a consumer privacy ombudsman would likely cost money (although having the terms of the sale consistent with the privacy policy might not cost a thing). However, it sounds like that law was designed exactly for cases like this -- where people have a high expectation of privacy, and we are talking about people who may have $50,000 of bullion sitting in their home. Hannes may not have done as good a job touting his privacy policy as a larger company, but he did have a clearly thought out privacy policy.

    Unfortunately, since Mr. Neilson severed communications between me and him, I am not in a position to let him know about things like the privacy policy (and the issues on the tulvingbankruptcy.com website, which have been fixed).
    Last edited by valerb; 13th August 2014 at 00:22.
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  3. #73
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    Oh Snap, sounds like the guy found out screwing with peoples privacy isn't going to be as easy to get away with as he first thought. I sure hope not.


    Customer List Sale/Auction Postponed

    August 13, 2014 6:50AM EST
    R. Todd Neilson, the Tulving bankruptcy trustee, has withdrawn his motion to sell/auction the Tulving customer list and other intangibles, due to "certain concerns subsequently raised in respect to the proposed sale."
    Presumably, this is the concern that I brought up that Tulving may have disclosed a Privacy Policy that requires closer scrutiny of the sale to ensure that privacy concerns are met.

    My understanding is that the intangibles would still be sold/auctioned, but at a later date, with some modifications (likely adding a clause to the contract preventing disclosure to third parties).
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  4. #74
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    Is this an honest Tulving screwing or a dealer trying to bilk a customer and blame it on Tulving? Who's problem is this anyway, the dealer took the woman's money. Did he get screwed by Tulving or the woman?

    Here is the story: http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...d-coins/ng445/

    Whatever the case, it proves you can get screwed paying in advance for a product not in stock at your LCS or over the internet. You can never be 100% sure, but dealing with the largest known dealers or paying for cash and carry is your safest bet.




    Tulving's Problems Spread to Other Dealers

    August 19, 2014 6:35AM EST
    According to a Florida TV station, a woman is accusing a coin dealer in Florida of bilking her out of $30,000 of gold coins that she paid for 6 months ago. When the TV station confronted the owner, he explained that he had ordered the coins through The Tulving Company. Apparently unable to absorb the loss, he tried passing the loss on to his customer.

    I am not naming the dealer, as it appears to be an isolated incident, and he claims to be a Tulving creditor (although my records do not show him having filed a Proof of Claim form).
    Last edited by valerb; 21st August 2014 at 14:35.
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  5. #75
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    Who's the latest silver dealer to bite the dust???
    "If you don't know where you're going, you might end up some place else."
    - Yogi Berra

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xizang View Post
    Who's the latest silver dealer to bite the dust???
    They were not what I would call a reputable Silver dealer, especially with their 1% over dealer cost pitch.

    So Merit Gold and Silver won't be doing anymore bait and switch operations, at least for awhile.

    Just one more of these big guys getting what they deserve. Not really, hardly anyone goes to jail for white collar crimes.

    One has to wonder how many people are caught up in their going out of business problems?

    I'm sure this won't be the last time we hear about Merit Gold and their problems.
    Last edited by valerb; 28th August 2014 at 05:05.
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  7. #77
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    Any links to fair and objective news stories about them? Inquiring minds want to know.
    "If you don't know where you're going, you might end up some place else."
    - Yogi Berra

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xizang View Post
    Any links to fair and objective news stories about them? Inquiring minds want to know.
    You can do a search on Merit Gold and Silver complaints or just plain Merit Gold and Silver and also find them. Like many dealers, there are always people complaining, but places like Merit have a special place in this business and deserve whatever they get.

    I looked into them before because of their advertisements of 1% over dealer costs and that was a load of crap, at least it is for anyone that knows anything about this business. It was then that I saw all these complaints about their bait and switch tactics that they had going on. No I didn't call them myself, I had my fill of that kind of treatment with Monex years ago. All I wanted was some pure Silver rounds delivered and they tried to sell me everything but, including Silver paper contracts on margin or it was Silver on margin in a Silver pool, I don't remember, I just know I didn't want anything to do with it. If that wasn't bad enough, they got my phone number up front and I received a number of follow-up calls later. The dumb mistakes you make in the beginning.

    Read this one from coinweek back in February and then their follow-up that I posted below which was from an August 15th post.


    http://www.coinweek.com/bullion-repo...ction-lawsuit/

    I believe the following more or less confirms Merit had to settle this lawsuit. Just how much of a screwing people got is hard to tell.

    UPDATE: On August 13, Adam Radinsky, Head of the Consumer Protection Unit of the Santa Monica City Attorney’s Office, told CoinWeek that Merit Gold had entered into an assignment for the benefit of creditors. An assignment for the benefit of creditors is an alternative to bankruptcy, and it is possible for a business to continue to operate as a going concern during and after the process.

    On August 15, I called Merit Gold and Silver to confirm. The associate I spoke with told me that the business is closing its doors. Messages left with Merit Gold Owner Peter Epstein and CEO Michael Getlin went unanswered.


    The one thing I found most interesting about complaints on web forums in regards to their bait and switch tactics is, those defending their business model were not opposed to that practice, but defending the logic of buying numismatic products as a sound investment. Of course the argument isn't rather numismatic coins are a sound investment or not, but the issue of offering Gold and Silver at 1% over dealer cost and then trying to convince customers into buying numismatic products at huge profits for the dealer and most likely the sales person as well.
    Last edited by valerb; 28th August 2014 at 17:55.
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  9. #79
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    Tulving's records show he owes his customers $18.6 million Dollars. God that's one hell of a lot in terms of Silver rounds!!!
    Plus we are finally starting to see something positive coming out of this in the way of a criminal investigation, maybe.



    Customer List Ordered Sealed

    September 13, 2014 7:15AM EST
    As I mentioned on September 11, R. Todd Neilson made a motion with the court to have the customer list sealed. The judge yesterday ordered the customer list to be sealed. This will be a major benefit, providing peace of mind to Tulving's customers that are choosing not to file a Proof of Claim form over concerns of privacy, as their information will not be part of the public record.


    Hannes Tulving Negotiating in Criminal Investigation

    September 12, 2014 2:40PM EST
    According to court documents filed this week, Hannes Tulving, Jr. has engaged in negotiations with the United States Attorney for the District of North Carolina relating to potential criminal charges against him.


    Customers Owed $18,671,529.98


    September 11, 2014 12:35PM EST
    Yesterday, the Chapter 7 Trustee, R. Todd Neilson, filed the bankruptcy Schedules and Statement of Financial Affairs, that many have been anxiously awaiting since March.
    Although there are some important questions that it does not help answer, there is still a lot of information:


    •First, kudos to R. Todd Neilson, as the filings show that he has made a motion with the court to file the names of customers under seal, which means that they would not become part of the public record. Although Proof of Claim forms become part of the public record, this allows those choosing not to file a Proof of Claim to maintain their privacy.
    •It suggests that roughly half of all Tulving creditors have filed Proof of Claim forms so far.
    •It shows a total of $18,709,333.91 in liabilities, of which $18,671,529.98 is owed to customers. Note that these numbers could change, but I suspect the $18.6M to customers is from fairly accurate records (although a lot lower than I had anticipated). As of this morning, there were 246 claims filed adding up to $10,097,524.85.
    •It again mentions Accounts Receivable ($593,434.00), but it is not clear what that could be.
    •It shows misc. payments owed, such as to UPS, USPS, the phone/electric/gas companies, etc.
    •It confirms that Hannes Tulving was 100% owner of The Tulving Company
    •It shows that the bankruptcy attorney (Andrew Bisom) was paid March 3, 2014, the day employees were sent home. Before, we learned that Hannes first paid him in June, 2013 (when he should have filed bankruptcy).
    •It shows that Hannes was drawing about $4K/month (not including his rent, and perhaps utilities, which were paid for by The Tulving Company)
    •Surprisingly, there were a few checks were written several days after the business closed (such as a payment to UPS). It seems Hannes gave a very high priority to paying bills.
    •It does not show payments to bullion dealers, presumably because they are not creditors (I.E. they get paid before they ship metal).
    •There was a piece of information that could potentially provide a clue or lead as to Hannes' whereabouts.
    •It does not provide any clues as to the $1M liability shown as being owed the landlord on the original petition.
    •It does not state how many Tulving customers are owed money. Based on the average order size, which has proven to be very accurate, it would suggest roughly 425 customers in all (compared to the 'up to 1,000' I was estimating).
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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by valerb View Post
    Tulving's records show he owes his customers $18.6 million Dollars. God that's one hell of a lot in terms of Silver rounds!!!
    Plus we are finally starting to see something positive coming out of this in the way of a criminal investigation, maybe.



    Hey Vale, have you heard anything more about this ?

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