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realmoney
17th January 2010, 06:47
Wondering what everyone's take on SHTF lessons learned. Seems like drinkable water (followed by food) trumps almost anything over there. People "seem" to be banding together and not looting/rioting/stealing (or from what I see on TV anyway), so would this be an argument to lower ammo on priority list?
What implications to silver as a barter?

Or is it just too early to draw conclusions yet?

TheLoneRanger
17th January 2010, 07:50
Wondering what everyone's take on SHTF lessons learned. Seems like drinkable water (followed by food) trumps almost anything over there. People "seem" to be banding together and not looting/rioting/stealing (or from what I see on TV anyway), so would this be an argument to lower ammo on priority list?
What implications to silver as a barter?

Or is it just too early to draw conclusions yet?

Gang activity is why they pulled the Canadian and Belgium Medical teams out of that one hospital.. and Gang Activity both before and after the earthquake is why there are whole sectors of Haiti where NGO's can't operate and Gang activity is why we have armed security forces with the US Aid teams.

But as to ammo for shtf... how long of a fire fight do you think you can sustain before you take unacceptable casulties?.. you start seeing family getting hit and dying or you yourself take a round or two and you might decide to give the gangs/zombies/ bluehats/pickyourboogyman what they want...

If you plan on having shootouts or offering armed resistance you need more than ammo.. some bodybags and a pocket version of good funeral prayers and services might be wise as well.

I'm not saying you shouldn't resist or fight back.. but I am saying some serious advanced tactical training and trauma first aid might get moved up in priority... with that training you can better judge your ammo requirements.. when it comes to ammo the first and most serious mistake most folks make is buying cheap milslurp FMJ ammo.. you aren't military.. you aren't restricted by the Hague and Geneva conventions.. you are allowed to use the cruelest and most lethal ammo you can buy.. I would, were I you, seriously concider not so much how much ammo but what quality of ammo I stockpile... you are going to want every advantage you can get.. that means high quality training, high quality weapons and the best most lethal ammo you can afford.

Haiti is Haiti.. your preps should be based on your best estimate of the threat profile where you plan on being when the world as you knew it ends.

Sorry if I sound harsh here.. but if you are even half serious about armed resistance to the evils that come with societal colapse.. then it has to be a 100% professional level effort to have a shot at an even chance... and If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your preps and tactics suck. This is no time for a fair fight .. this is life and death.. cheating and dirty tactics are allowed and will be used against you.

red snapper
17th January 2010, 07:52
Gang activity is why they pulled the Canadian and Belgium Medical teams out of that one hospital.. and Gang Activity both before and after the earthquake is why there are whole sectors of Haiti where NGO's can't operate and Gang activity is why we have armed security forces with the US Aid teams.

But as to ammo for shtf... how long of a fire fight do you think you can sustain before you take unacceptable casulties?.. you start seeing family getting hit and dying or you yourself take a round or two and you might decide to give the gangs/zombies/ bluehats/pickyourboogyman what they want...

If you plan on having shootouts or offering armed resistance you need more than ammo.. some bodybags and a pocket version of good funeral prayers and services might be wise as well.

I'm not saying you shouldn't resist or fight back.. but I am saying some serious advanced tactical training and trauma first aid might get moved up in priority... with that training you can better judge your ammo requirements.. when it comes to ammo the first and most serious mistake most folks make is buying cheap milslurp FMJ ammo.. you aren't military.. you aren't restricted by the Hague and Geneva conventions.. you are allowed to use the cruelest and most lethal ammo you can buy.. I would, were I you, seriously concider not so much how much ammo but what quality of ammo I stockpile... you are going to want every advantage you can get.. that means high quality training, high quality weapons and the best most lethal ammo you can afford.

Haiti is Haiti.. your preps should be based on your best estimate of the threat profile where you plan on being when the world as you knew it ends.

Sorry if I sound harsh here.. but if you are even half serious about armed resistance to the evils that come with societal colapse.. then it has to be a 100% professional level effort to have a shot at an even chance... and If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your preps and tactics suck. This is no time for a fair fight .. this is life and death.. cheating and dirty tactics are allowed and will be used against you.

Remind me never to rob your house then.. ;)

realmoney
17th January 2010, 08:09
Gang activity is why they pulled the Canadian and Belgium Medical teams out of that one hospital.. and Gang Activity both before and after the earthquake is why there are whole sectors of Haiti where NGO's can't operate and Gang activity is why we have armed security forces with the US Aid teams.

But as to ammo for shtf... how long of a fire fight do you think you can sustain before you take unacceptable casulties?.. you start seeing family getting hit and dying or you yourself take a round or two and you might decide to give the gangs/zombies/ bluehats/pickyourboogyman what they want...

If you plan on having shootouts or offering armed resistance you need more than ammo.. some bodybags and a pocket version of good funeral prayers and services might be wise as well.

I'm not saying you shouldn't resist or fight back.. but I am saying some serious advanced tactical training and trauma first aid might get moved up in priority... with that training you can better judge your ammo requirements.. when it comes to ammo the first and most serious mistake most folks make is buying cheap milslurp FMJ ammo.. you aren't military.. you aren't restricted by the Hague and Geneva conventions.. you are allowed to use the cruelest and most lethal ammo you can buy.. I would, were I you, seriously concider not so much how much ammo but what quality of ammo I stockpile... you are going to want every advantage you can get.. that means high quality training, high quality weapons and the best most lethal ammo you can afford.

Haiti is Haiti.. your preps should be based on your best estimate of the threat profile where you plan on being when the world as you knew it ends.

Sorry if I sound harsh here.. but if you are even half serious about armed resistance to the evils that come with societal colapse.. then it has to be a 100% professional level effort to have a shot at an even chance... and If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your preps and tactics suck. This is no time for a fair fight .. this is life and death.. cheating and dirty tactics are allowed and will be used against you.

Good points. I was actually suggesting that ammo might be much further down the list of priorities than other things (besides water/food, medicine and good first aid skills come to mind). Also, I hope neighbors/communities would come together in severe situations, but I'm not so certain today.

Anyway, if you are suggesting that ammo should be nowhere on the list, I'd have to disagree. Besides barter, when it comes down to it, no way I'm laying down while my family is under immediate threat by some thugs. I'm no Rambo, but I'll go down fighting...

TheLoneRanger
17th January 2010, 08:34
You need to be both a reliable and valuable friend to friends, and the worst possible enemy to enemies.
I am absoultely not suggesting that you not resist.. I am suggesting that if you plan on resisting that you resist successfully, and to do that you need to take training and equipment seriously. You need to seriously concider what you will be thinking about after you have attempted to resist, and to some degree failed, and had people in your care die or be raped or maimed. If you do not make a credible effort to aquire the skills to be as much of a "rambo" as you can be. Those will be moments and thoughts that will be much harder than they had to be.

The material side of prep should always be secondary to the knowledge, skill, and training side of prep... all well and good to have canning supplies .. but if you don't know how to, or have confidence in your ability, to can wholesome safe and nutrious food.. whats those canned tomatos going to be worth? No man fears to do what he knows how to do. Learn armed self defense, and make no mistake.. armed self defense is as much a martial art as Karate or knife fighting.. it takes training and practice..

check this out Here is a bunch of videos of IDPA sessions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBkz7uZEzYs

Check out the related videos on the right as well

IDPA groups are all over the place there is probably one with in easy driving distance from you and Membership is only $40 a year.. most groups meet once or twice a month the only additional cost is range fees and ammo , and most groups get a discount on the cost of renting the range, your share of range fees will depend on how many folks show up to shoot at any given meeting.. usually less than $10 here, and you are responsible to bring your own ammo.. figure 50 to 100 rounds a session. Most groups have a 1 free trial session policy so conatct the local group and try it out before you sign up .. also find out what equipment requirements are.. they have minimum caliber requirements for most categories, but most also allow folks to go with smaller pistols if thats all they have and just want to try it out.. you will need a concealed carry rig that meets IDPA safety standards so ask about that as well and if using a semi auto you will need extra magazines because reloading on the move is a part of every drill .. you have to reload revolvers as well of course and speed loaders are encouraged but folks do load loose ammo... they don't turn in great times... all drills are timed.. but accuracy counts as well...

IDPA website and membership info http://www.idpa.com/

I'm not trying to sell anybody anything here.. all I am saying is that with all the posts about protecting your PM's/Loved Ones and SHTF and such that have been posted recently.. if you going to arm yourself, get some skills. Taking responsibility upon yourself to protect yourself and your loved ones is not a small thing and should not be treated as a small thing.

IDPA folks are good folks and have conciderable skill and patience in teaching n00b's for free... just popping off a box or two once a year at a stationary paper target ain't gonna cut it. If you can afford the big bux courses like Thunder Ranch or Frontsight, all well and even better.. but if you are on a budget IDPA is out there.

TheLoneRanger
17th January 2010, 10:02
Aw heck.. while I'm at it.. here is another critical resource if you are serious about armed self defense in SHTF or to protect your treasure... for the record I am against using lethal force in defense of property in most cases.. there are some logical exceptions such as somebody trying to steal other lethal weapons, but everybody has to draw their own line in the sand based on their own code of morals and local laws.

Anyway read this.. it is critical info that can help save your sanity after the fact and maybe increase your chances of survival before the fact.

http://www.killology.com/main.htm

in particular, these articles at the site posted above

http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

this whole series of articles

http://www.killology.com/article_psychological.htm

and this series

http://www.killology.com/article_behavioral.htm

and this series

http://www.killology.com/article_onkilling.htm

reading and understanding the above articles is critical in preparing your mind for the trauma of actually using lethal force. A prepared mind , to the degree it is prepared, has a better chance of continuing to function and not developing PTSD or other problems ...

If you think there is any chance in any foreseable situation that you might actually have to use lethal force or if you plan on using lethal force in some circumstances, or if you plan on legally carry a concealed firearm for self defense or defense of others I strongly urge you to read the above articles.

Katwoman
17th January 2010, 10:59
The situation in Haiti will likely unravel further in the coming weeks as needs are not met. A gun, and a stock pile of food and water could soon be the only thing that will keep you alive. Those who plan for these things are always laughed at until the SHTF thereafter they are source or the unprepared. Failure to be armed and prepared like a member of the militia will leave you vulnerable. In fact being a member of a militia may be the best preparation you can ever make.

tim
17th January 2010, 11:35
some thoughts on haiti............. if the usa DID NOT SEND Help .
that would be a REAL SHT HIT THE FAN CASE.
NO MEDICAL HELP
NO RELIEF SUPPLIES
.
A ""REAL"" SHTF CASE WILL BE WHEN THERE IS NO BODY COMING TO SEND RELEIF......IF USA IS LAST STRONG MAN STANDING SO TO SPEAK AND FALLS WHO IS COMING TO HELP OUT?

red snapper
17th January 2010, 11:57
some thoughts on haiti............. if the usa DID NOT SEND Help .
that would be a REAL SHT HIT THE FAN CASE.
NO MEDICAL HELP
NO RELIEF SUPPLIES
.
A ""REAL"" SHTF CASE WILL BE WHEN THERE IS NO BODY COMING TO SEND RELEIF......IF USA IS LAST STRONG MAN STANDING SO TO SPEAK AND FALLS WHO IS COMING TO HELP OUT?

So you still want the dollar to collapse and the USA to be in the **** so your silver can go to da moon?

tim
17th January 2010, 12:38
the intent of my statement is to reflect the DEEP DEPENDANCE WE ALL OUR on a government that can fail and may this decade...
if any one of us on this silver board were in haiti NOW, OUR SILVER STASH WOULD NOT BE THE SAVE ALL FOR OUR LIVES..

the lesson to be learned from haiti is this .......... THEY ALL KNEW IT WAS COMING, THE PEOPLE, THE GOVERNMENT ,EVERYBODY WHO CAN READ AND THINK KNOWS AN EARTHQUAKE WILL HIT THIER COUNTRY.. those who did not prepared suffered their chances.....

THE LESSON FOR US ALL ON THESE BOARDS IS THIS.........
WE KNOW THE USD DOLLAR WILL COLLAPSE OR DEVALUE WITH ALL ITS SOCIAL AND POLITICAL EFFECTS.....DEATHS WILL OCCUR.... BECAUSE OF IT AND BECAUSE FEW HAVE PREPARED FOR IT... THAT IS ONE LESSON I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS AND A FEW OTHERS ..........

UmassSteve
17th January 2010, 12:58
I think an underrated preparation for SHTF is simply being in shape. If you're overweight and can not run a few miles at a time, or carrying a friend with a broken ankle/bullet wound to safety, you're way down. Your guns and your stockpile of food is all well and dandy, and definitely a great thing to put on your checklist. But so is being lean, fit, able to run, able to lift, and not in danger of developing any kind of preventable health disorder from being out of shape. I mean, you can be out of shape in your fortified home, but all it really takes is a simple bottle of vodka with a flaming rag to destroy almost all of your planning (unless you've got an actual bomb shelter) and put you out on the street with just whatever you can carry. And if you're weak, overweight, and can't do work that younger or fitter people can do, you're just dead weight without your own stockpiles and your own home.

maplesilverbug
17th January 2010, 17:25
Wondering what everyone's take on SHTF lessons learned. Seems like drinkable water (followed by food) trumps almost anything over there.

This thread is pretty much moot. Why? Ever been to Haiti?

DAILY life is a SHTF sitch in Haiti!!!
Potable H2O and food are ALWAYS on the "Hot Ticket" list.

Now they have even less = nothing.

realmoney
17th January 2010, 17:47
The situation in Haiti will likely unravel further in the coming weeks as needs are not met. A gun, and a stock pile of food and water could soon be the only thing that will keep you alive. Those who plan for these things are always laughed at until the SHTF thereafter they are source or the unprepared. Failure to be armed and prepared like a member of the militia will leave you vulnerable. In fact being a member of a militia may be the best preparation you can ever make.

I may have been too hasty to say that people in Haiti seem to be working together. Recently saw a news clip of a military chopper dropping supplies from about 10ft off the ground, and it was a total free-for-all. Didn't seem organized or peaceful at all. Sad and scary whats happening there.

maplesilverbug
17th January 2010, 17:50
I may have been too hasty to say that people in Haiti seem to be working together. Recently saw a news clip of a military chopper dropping supplies from about 10ft off the ground, and it was a total free-for-all. Didn't seem organized or peaceful at all. Sad and scary whats happening there.

That would be call 'Mob Rule'.

When the **** does hit -- with 7.0 force -- self-preservation (the PRIMARY and ULTIMATE prep) kicks in with equivalent force and things really do become 'Do or Die'.

That's life.

tim
17th January 2010, 18:05
After The De Juror Legislated Division Of Soceity Dissolves .........the De Facto Divisions Of Society Emerge ... Appetite---to Live/to Eat / To Survive..........ability---to Acquire/to Possess/to Defend/......... Apptitude....... Relative To Comparison With All Others Who Seek The Same..

Will Haiti Become Better As A Country From This?
What Lessons Will Many Take From This Event?
When An Earthquake Hits California Will It Be Same?
When Dollar Collapses And Federal Gov Is Rendered Mute How Many Dead In The Financial Wars Of 2010 -2014?

Katwoman
17th January 2010, 18:17
I think an underrated preparation for SHTF is simply being in shape. If you're overweight and can not run a few miles at a time, or carrying a friend with a broken ankle/bullet wound to safety, you're way down. Your guns and your stockpile of food is all well and dandy, and definitely a great thing to put on your checklist. But so is being lean, fit, able to run, able to lift, and not in danger of developing any kind of preventable health disorder from being out of shape. I mean, you can be out of shape in your fortified home, but all it really takes is a simple bottle of vodka with a flaming rag to destroy almost all of your planning (unless you've got an actual bomb shelter) and put you out on the street with just whatever you can carry. And if you're weak, overweight, and can't do work that younger or fitter people can do, you're just dead weight without your own stockpiles and your own home.

This may be one of the smartest things you have ever said. :D

Burticus
18th January 2010, 00:36
It is futile spending time and FeRNs storing silver, water, food and other supplies if the local warlords can just come and steal everything, then rape your wife, kill you and carry off your daughter.

In a zombie apocalypse scenario, the greatest threat may be the NWO storm troopers, as observed at the NWO-20 meeting in Pittsburg, where they did not seem to distinguish between unarmed peaceful citizens and criminals looting & setting cars ablaze. Such mercenaries are heavily armed, armored, organized, trained and can call in reinforcements and heavy firepower. It is useless to "hole up" against them; you will get weaker as they get stronger. Goriller tactics are required, like sniping from behind every blade of grass, ambushes, improvised explosives, supply raids, harass & retreat, etc., as observed in Iraq & Afghanistan. When they run out of mercenaries, the minion class (politicians) and TPTB who gave the orders will all hang.

The waves of regular zombies are a lesser concern, despite their greater numbers. Drop the ringleaders at a distance and the rest should instinctively rabbit. Otherwise, a couple well-trained men (even portly ones) with AKs/ARs and stacks of loaded 30 round magazines (and 75 or 100 round drums) would mow 'em down like wheat. As the pile of corpses gets higher, the survivors will move on to look for easier victims. THEY will do the running, not you, fatso. (If you have never watched a couple shooters empty a few magazines until their barrels start smokin', then you would not appreciate the effect.) As Vladimir Lenin said, "One man with a gun can control 100 without one."

However, taking a lesson from Argentina's 2001 currency collapse, one must carry a handgun and be constantly vigilant when going anywhere. Just ask Fernando...
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
http://www.grabtheapple.com/

I am willing to advise my fellow members on water, food, firearms, ammo, body armor, etc. and also have a SurvivalGuide_Ebook.pdf that I can send anyone who wants it (571KB).

It may be more important to stockpile large supplies of ammo than food now, since the gubmint will likely try to further restrict its manufacture and sale. Just try finding 9mm right now - out of stock.

maplesilverbug
18th January 2010, 00:55
I fucking LOVE Zombies!!!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/90/219580648_4e75fc2a6d_o.jpg

maplesilverbug
18th January 2010, 01:16
In a zombie apocalypse scenario...

http://donttouchmymoleskine.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/zombie_che.jpg

valerb
18th January 2010, 04:34
Aw heck.. while I'm at it.. here is another critical resource if you are serious about armed self defense in SHTF or to protect your treasure... for the record I am against using lethal force in defense of property in most cases.. there are some logical exceptions such as somebody trying to steal other lethal weapons, but everybody has to draw their own line in the sand based on their own code of morals and local laws.

Anyway read this.. it is critical info that can help save your sanity after the fact and maybe increase your chances of survival before the fact.

http://www.killology.com/main.htm

in particular, these articles at the site posted above

http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

this whole series of articles

http://www.killology.com/article_psychological.htm

and this series

http://www.killology.com/article_behavioral.htm

and this series

http://www.killology.com/article_onkilling.htm

reading and understanding the above articles is critical in preparing your mind for the trauma of actually using lethal force. A prepared mind , to the degree it is prepared, has a better chance of continuing to function and not developing PTSD or other problems ...

If you think there is any chance in any foreseable situation that you might actually have to use lethal force or if you plan on using lethal force in some circumstances, or if you plan on legally carry a concealed firearm for self defense or defense of others I strongly urge you to read the above articles.

Thanks, great information.

Burticus
18th January 2010, 18:06
Nice pics, Maple. Laughing 'til my side hurts!

maplesilverbug
18th January 2010, 18:42
I try my worst. :)