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Aggie
17th December 2009, 22:36
I expect more of this to come.

ag

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2009_10/versions/hb430_LC_21_0297_a_2.htm

hippiebrian
17th December 2009, 22:42
Remember, this is coming from a liberal for what it's worth.

Given the choice, in no way am I going to pay the state in silver. First off, they will make a ton holding on to it, depriving me of making a ton holding on to it. They want that priviledge for a reason!

Secondly, I'm paying my taxes etc., in frn's. The government issues them, they get them back.

Keep the government's hands off my silver!

Argyria
18th December 2009, 00:18
Just one thing: *requiring* payments to the state be made in gold and silver is not going to work. It would amount to secession.

akak
18th December 2009, 00:19
Just one thing: *requiring* payments to the state be made in gold and silver is not going to work. It would amount to secession.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

cowboycarl04
18th December 2009, 09:47
Well according to section 4 of the bill, it will go into effect on the first day of 2010, which is 2 weeks away.

Chapter 37 states that

"CHAPTER 37

50-37-1.The General Assembly finds that, as mandated by Article I, Section 10 of the United States Constitution, the state shall not make anything but gold and silver coins as tender in payment of debts. Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Dollars, having no redeeming value in gold or silver coin, shall not be made a tender in payment of debts by the state."

So, if accurate, then in a few weeks, well let's just see it to believe it.

silverheartbone
18th December 2009, 09:50
Remember, this is coming from a liberal for what it's worth.

Given the choice, in no way am I going to pay the state in silver. First off, they will make a ton holding on to it, depriving me of making a ton holding on to it. They want that priviledge for a reason!

Secondly, I'm paying my taxes etc., in frn's. The government issues them, they get them back.

Keep the government's hands off my silver!

As I read the page, it provides that to conform with the founder's constitutional intent,
GEORGIA is now forcing the banks to create gold and silver accounts and to
KEEP THEN SEGREGATED FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE ACCOUNTS!!!!

Great find Aggie!

A BIG YAAAAAY TO GEORGIA.

New User
18th December 2009, 10:08
As I read the page, it provides that to conform with the founder's constitutional intent,
GEORGIA is now forcing the banks to create gold and silver accounts and to
KEEP THEN SEGREGATED FROM THE FEDERAL RESERVE ACCOUNTS!!!!

Great find Aggie!

A BIG YAAAAAY TO GEORGIA.

I don't believe this bill ever made it out of committee, let alone became signed into law. Someone with a little more time may want to google that before commencing with the backflips.

Edited to add bill status (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2009_10/sum/hb430.htm) - That was easy. It's still nice to see some states acting as if their constitutions are being violated. Hopefully it bodes well for the future.

Argyria
18th December 2009, 10:21
I don't believe this bill ever made it out of committee, let alone became signed into law. Someone with a little more time may want to google that before commencing with the backflips.

Edited to add bill status (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2009_10/sum/hb430.htm) - That was easy. It's still nice to see some states acting as if their constitutions are being violated. Hopefully it bodes well for the future.

Sorry to let the air out of the balloon, but I just don't see this happening. Someone who gets paid in FRN's is gonna expect to pay their state taxes with them. The pieces of paper say right on them legal tender for all debts, public and private. So it will take a full on succession for this to work.

Katwoman
18th December 2009, 10:23
This is great news. Georgia is taking the lead lets see how long it takes other states to follow. This is the only way for the states t protect themselves against the federal governments spending habits.

Argyria
18th December 2009, 10:26
The way for this to work, in my opinion, is to start by allowing the option. You cannot mandate that people who are paid in fiat, pay their taxes in hard money. That's not fair to them, and the people will likely revolt.

Aggie
18th December 2009, 11:06
What I got from this proposed bill is that granted this is but a 'shot across the bow' of enacting secession but it is one hell of a shot nonetheless.

IMO, the key passage....

"7-9-1.The General Assembly finds and declares that sound, constitutionally based money is essential to the livelihood of the people of this state, to the stability and growth of the economy of this state and region, and vitally affects the public interest." (Emphasis mine.)


Vital 'public interest' is being invoked. The point being is that it's hard to argue against the public interest of which I surmise the bill's authors have plenty of fodder to defend their position based on the current actions of our leadership in D.C. The hurdle here is the mechanism. But leave no doubt they are serious about it and I would gather if an orderly and equitable method were crafted for the state to convert FRN's into gold and silver accounts the people would likely handidly endorse it - especially since their purchasing power would be inversely increased in a climate of foreseeable inflation.

The bottomline: The banks are not holding up their end of the bargain in paying a reasonable interest rate on deposits but on the other hand are charging ever higher short term interest rates to borrow. The states are additionally faced with a precarious and increasingly uncooperative bond market for their own debt and revenue resolutions. This is unsustainable and IMO the nexus of this proposed bill. The State of Georgia is attempting to defend itself. Now we will see what the federal government does in its attempts to disarm it.


ag

Katwoman
18th December 2009, 11:11
What I got from this proposed bill is that granted this is but a 'shot across the bow' of enacting secession but it is one hell of a shot nonetheless.

IMO, the key passage....

"7-9-1.The General Assembly finds and declares that sound, constitutionally based money is essential to the livelihood of the people of this state, to the stability and growth of the economy of this state and region, and vitally affects the public interest." (Emphasis mine.)


Vital 'public interest' is being invoked. The point being is that it's hard to argue against the public interest of which I surmise the bill's authors have plenty of fodder to defend their position based on the current actions of our leadership in D.C. The hurdle here is the mechanism. But leave no doubt they are serious about it and I would gather if an orderly and equitable method were crafted for the state to convert FRN's into gold and silver accounts the people would likely handidly endorse it - especially since their purchasing power would be inversely increased in a climate of foreseeable inflation.

The bottomline: The banks are not holding up their end of the bargain in paying a reasonable interest rate on deposits but on the other hand are charging ever higher short term interest rates to borrow. The states are additionally faced with a precarious bond market for their own debt resolutions. This is unsustainable and IMO the nexus of this proposed bill. The State of Georgia is attempting to defend itself. Now we will see what the federal government does in its attempts to disarm it.


ag


IMHO anything the federal government does to stop this would an act of treason making anyone who voted to such an effort immediately impeachable !!

valerb
18th December 2009, 12:37
I live in Atlanta and no one is telling me I need to pay my utility bills or any other bills with anything except FRN's.

Just where in the hell is everyone supposed to come up with all of these US Mint Gold and Silver coins? There is far more generic Silver in our hands than US Mint coins and there is no provisions for generic Silver.

What about the State of Georgia minting their own Gold and Silver coins? We also need ever increasing sizes of bars included. I sure as hell do not want to pay cash for a new car with a wheel barrow full of ASE's.

This plan is too simplified and not workable, unless the state starts producing their own PM products.

Then there is the public outcry when paid in PM's on Friday and the price drops 5% on Monday.

I'm sorry, but this system is not going to fly, unless the state has a massive amount of extra cash to invest in stamping state Gold and Silver well in advance of a starting time and that would have to be tens of billions if not hundreds of billions to meet payroll and ever increasing accounts. Unless they expect us to be foolish enough to except the concept of pool accounts, where there is no real Silver and Gold in these accounts. Then we are just fooling ourselves with another form of fiat currency. Gold is Gold, not a promise that it is backed by real Gold, that doesn't exist!!!!

Sorry guys, but this is just wishful thinking.

cowboycarl04
18th December 2009, 13:00
I have to bring this up here:

This was done 10 months ago and it's being brought up now? Why? This is the 2nd or 3rd time in the past 24 hours where all this information is being tossed around on websites.

The bill says it goes into effect in 1/1/2010, but the status is not even close to being voted on at this time.

So WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IT?

I would think the bigger story is gold shooting up $20 on an increasing dollar strength day.

Katwoman
18th December 2009, 16:19
I have to bring this up here:

This was done 10 months ago and it's being brought up now? Why? This is the 2nd or 3rd time in the past 24 hours where all this information is being tossed around on websites.

The bill says it goes into effect in 1/1/2010, but the status is not even close to being voted on at this time.

So WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IT?

I would think the bigger story is gold shooting up $20 on an increasing dollar strength day.

Gold will continue to go up until the national debt starts to go down. The dollar index is becoming meaningless to those in the know.

valerb
18th December 2009, 20:47
Gold will continue to go up until the national debt starts to go down. The dollar index is becoming meaningless to those in the know.

Sorry Kat, but those in the know don't matter, compared to those with the dough.

For instance on Dec 2nd - Dollar index was 74.50 and Silver was at $19.21.

Today on Dec 18th - Dollar index closed at 77.72 and Silver closed at $17.27.

You can sing and dance around those numbers all you want, but you can't beat reality, not even with a stick. Our worthless fiat currency is buying more Gold and Silver than it did two weeks ago.

You may be right next week, next year, or a decade from now, but not right now.

JesterJay
19th December 2009, 00:14
You tell 'em hippie!
JesterJay



Remember, this is coming from a liberal for what it's worth.

Given the choice, in no way am I going to pay the state in silver. First off, they will make a ton holding on to it, depriving me of making a ton holding on to it. They want that priviledge for a reason!

Secondly, I'm paying my taxes etc., in frn's. The government issues them, they get them back.

Keep the government's hands off my silver!

hippiebrian
19th December 2009, 00:24
Reading this further, if Ga. was really wanting to separate it's finances from the feds, wouldn't they allow generic rounds and bars also?

"50-37-3.
Pre-1965 silver coins, silver eagles, and gold eagles shall be the exclusive medium which the state shall use to make any payments whatsoever to any person or entity, whether private or governmental. Such coins shall be the exclusive medium which the state shall accept from any person or entity as payment of any obligation to the state including, without limitation, the payment of taxes; provided, however, that other forms of currency may be used in all other transactions within the state upon mutual consent of the parties of any such transaction."

Katwoman
19th December 2009, 01:16
Sorry Kat, but those in the know don't matter, compared to those with the dough.

For instance on Dec 2nd - Dollar index was 74.50 and Silver was at $19.21.

Today on Dec 18th - Dollar index closed at 77.72 and Silver closed at $17.27.

You can sing and dance around those numbers all you want, but you can't beat reality, not even with a stick. Our worthless fiat currency is buying more Gold and Silver than it did two weeks ago.

You may be right next week, next year, or a decade from now, but not right now.

Really from October 10th through October 24 the dollar index was between 75 and 75.5 while spot silver was from in the mid $17 range.....how do you explain the dollar index going up two points while silver prices stayed about the same?

Aggie
19th December 2009, 03:14
Reading this further, if Ga. was really wanting to separate it's finances from the feds, wouldn't they allow generic rounds and bars also?

Perhaps because ASE's (and AGE's) are in fact U.S. minted legal tender?

Granted their face value of $1 relative to FRN's doesn't reflect their market

value but legal tender is nevertheless still legal tender no matter the face

valuation. Generic bullion OTOH isn't because it's considered more of a

a 'commodity'. Georgia may end up changing their minds about generic

bullion once they find out there aren't enough ASE's/AGE's to go around.


ag


http://goldsilver.com/american-silver-eagle-1oz/

akak
19th December 2009, 03:33
Sorry Kat, but those in the know don't matter, compared to those with the dough.

For instance on Dec 2nd - Dollar index was 74.50 and Silver was at $19.21.

Today on Dec 18th - Dollar index closed at 77.72 and Silver closed at $17.27.

You can sing and dance around those numbers all you want, but you can't beat reality, not even with a stick. Our worthless fiat currency is buying more Gold and Silver than it did two weeks ago.

You may be right next week, next year, or a decade from now, but not right now.

Sorry, but that Nadleresque mantra of "Gold and silver are going up only because the dollar is going down" (or vice versa) is so easily refutable by just looking at the Dollar Index vs. gold and silver prices over the last year or two, that I wonder that anyone even tries to make it. Granted, there is SOME correlation between the two, but the real meaningful comparison is NOT using the so-called Dollar Index, which I am coming to hate seeing mentioned, as it is NOT, again NOT, I repeat NOT a measure of the absolute value of the US dollar, only a relative measure against other equally and continually depreciating fiat currencies. IF you want to make a direct comparison, you would chart the prices of gold and silver against the INFLATION-ADJUSTED value of the dollar --- then we would really see an interesting graph! And I guarantee you, an almost exclusively one-way one.

For the last time, the Dollar Index is NOT a meaningful measure of ANYTHING except where the dollar stands in relation to other currencies which are all ALSO sinking! IF the dollar index stood at, say, 0.80 in 1988, and returns to 0.80 today, that does NOT mean that the dollar has held steady in purchasing value over the interval --- it just means that the dollar, on average, depreciated as much as all the other currencies against which it is measured in this index. The dollar index, in fact, tells us NOTHING about the absolute purchasing power or value of the dollar at any given time.

I am convinced that we are being browbeaten with this contrived index as just another whitewashing of the truth by the powers-that-be, meant to confuse and distract us from the REAL numbers, which all show a steadily depreciating dollar. As indeed it must be, being an unbacked fiat currency, which in the history of the world not ONE such currency has ever really gained in real value over any meaningful time span.

silverheartbone
19th December 2009, 15:21
The state of Georgia has the nerve to tell the banksters
after generations of being chosen for special treatment
to follow the supreme law of our land.

This will be interesting.

Katwoman
19th December 2009, 15:53
Sorry, but that Nadleresque mantra of "Gold and silver are going up only because the dollar is going down" (or vice versa) is so easily refutable by just looking at the Dollar Index vs. gold and silver prices over the last year or two, that I wonder that anyone even tries to make it. Granted, there is SOME correlation between the two, but the real meaningful comparison is NOT using the so-called Dollar Index, which I am coming to hate seeing mentioned, as it is NOT, again NOT, I repeat NOT a measure of the absolute value of the US dollar, only a relative measure against other equally and continually depreciating fiat currencies. IF you want to make a direct comparison, you would chart the prices of gold and silver against the INFLATION-ADJUSTED value of the dollar --- then we would really see an interesting graph! And I guarantee you, an almost exclusively one-way one.

For the last time, the Dollar Index is NOT a meaningful measure of ANYTHING except where the dollar stands in relation to other currencies which are all ALSO sinking! IF the dollar index stood at, say, 0.80 in 1988, and returns to 0.80 today, that does NOT mean that the dollar has held steady in purchasing value over the interval --- it just means that the dollar, on average, depreciated as much as all the other currencies against which it is measured in this index. The dollar index, in fact, tells us NOTHING about the absolute purchasing power or value of the dollar at any given time.

I am convinced that we are being browbeaten with this contrived index as just another whitewashing of the truth by the powers-that-be, meant to confuse and distract us from the REAL numbers, which all show a steadily depreciating dollar. As indeed it must be, being an unbacked fiat currency, which in the history of the world not ONE such currency has ever really gained in real value over any meaningful time span.

Touche!! Brilliant thoughts AKAK I have rarely heard anything so succinctly put. Those in the know now are paying attention to other indicators of the future value of gold. Among these is the ballooning national debt which keeps going up irrespective of what the dollar index does. That is not to say that i would disregard the index entirely in my TA as it does influence prices but I would not make my investment decisions based on it either.

valerb
21st December 2009, 03:57
Sorry, but that Nadleresque mantra of "Gold and silver are going up only because the dollar is going down" (or vice versa) is so easily refutable by just looking at the Dollar Index vs. gold and silver prices over the last year or two, that I wonder that anyone even tries to make it. Granted, there is SOME correlation between the two, but the real meaningful comparison is NOT using the so-called Dollar Index, which I am coming to hate seeing mentioned, as it is NOT, again NOT, I repeat NOT a measure of the absolute value of the US dollar, only a relative measure against other equally and continually depreciating fiat currencies. IF you want to make a direct comparison, you would chart the prices of gold and silver against the INFLATION-ADJUSTED value of the dollar --- then we would really see an interesting graph! And I guarantee you, an almost exclusively one-way one.

For the last time, the Dollar Index is NOT a meaningful measure of ANYTHING except where the dollar stands in relation to other currencies which are all ALSO sinking! IF the dollar index stood at, say, 0.80 in 1988, and returns to 0.80 today, that does NOT mean that the dollar has held steady in purchasing value over the interval --- it just means that the dollar, on average, depreciated as much as all the other currencies against which it is measured in this index. The dollar index, in fact, tells us NOTHING about the absolute purchasing power or value of the dollar at any given time.

I am convinced that we are being browbeaten with this contrived index as just another whitewashing of the truth by the powers-that-be, meant to confuse and distract us from the REAL numbers, which all show a steadily depreciating dollar. As indeed it must be, being an unbacked fiat currency, which in the history of the world not ONE such currency has ever really gained in real value over any meaningful time span.

That's funny. When the dollar is dropping and so many on this forum are highlighting that fact and telling everyone to buy Silver, this is your last chance. Then when the dollar rallies and Silver takes a hit, the rise in the dollar has nothing to do with it. That is just fooling yourself. As far as the dollar decreasing in value, does that not also apply to Silver as well!!! If you bought Silver for $9 an ounce several years ago and then you bought more again at $9 last year. Was last years Silver any more valuable than the Silver you bought for the same price several years ago, no. Just like the dollar has declined in value, so did Silver at $9. Let's not try and bring gobbledygook into this discussion. The entire world uses fiat currencies and that's a fact of life. You only buy and sell your Silver with and for fiat currencies. Now you might make a trade with your Silver for some other commodity, but that trade will be based on the fiat value of each commodity, to help determine what is a fair trade. I for one can tell you that the dollar index is real world. You may think it is some kind of game, but just make a trip to another country and you'll find out just how real the dollar index is. The rest of the world doesn't care about the dollars true value as a single currency for the most part, it's the dollar index that counts.

Your right that Gold and Silver do not always rise and fall opposite the dollar. For a couple decades, both metals were in the basement, no mater what the dollar did. There are always other factors that influence the PM market, especially the stock market. When it crashes, everyone gets hurt. The ETF's have been our best friend over the past three years and yet so many believe the ETF's are the scourge of the earth.

akak
21st December 2009, 15:28
That's funny. When the dollar is dropping and so many on this forum are highlighting that fact and telling everyone to buy Silver, this is your last chance. Then when the dollar rallies and Silver takes a hit, the rise in the dollar has nothing to do with it. That is just fooling yourself. As far as the dollar decreasing in value, does that not also apply to Silver as well!!! If you bought Silver for $9 an ounce several years ago and then you bought more again at $9 last year. Was last years Silver any more valuable than the Silver you bought for the same price several years ago, no. Just like the dollar has declined in value, so did Silver at $9. Let's not try and bring gobbledygook into this discussion. The entire world uses fiat currencies and that's a fact of life. You only buy and sell your Silver with and for fiat currencies. Now you might make a trade with your Silver for some other commodity, but that trade will be based on the fiat value of each commodity, to help determine what is a fair trade. I for one can tell you that the dollar index is real world. You may think it is some kind of game, but just make a trip to another country and you'll find out just how real the dollar index is. The rest of the world doesn't care about the dollars true value as a single currency for the most part, it's the dollar index that counts.

Your right that Gold and Silver do not always rise and fall opposite the dollar. For a couple decades, both metals were in the basement, no mater what the dollar did. There are always other factors that influence the PM market, especially the stock market. When it crashes, everyone gets hurt. The ETF's have been our best friend over the past three years and yet so many believe the ETF's are the scourge of the earth.

Sorry, Valerie, but you appear not to have read my whole post, or to have completely understood it. Again, let me repeat the crucial part:


The Dollar Index is NOT a meaningful measure of ANYTHING except where the dollar stands in relation to other currencies which are all ALSO sinking! IF the dollar index stood at, say, 0.80 in 1988, and returns to 0.80 today, that does NOT mean that the dollar has held steady in purchasing value over the interval --- it just means that the dollar, on average, depreciated as much as all the other currencies against which it is measured in this index. The dollar index, in fact, tells us NOTHING about the absolute purchasing power or value of the dollar at any given time.


You are correct in a way, that when one travels overseas, it is indeed the daily exchange rates between the dollar and foreign currencies that matter to that person at that time. That in no way takes anything away from the fact that the dollar index, as it is currently frequently being used, is irrelevant and meaningless for any long-term comparisons! The Dollar Index was originally (and should only be) used as a tool of short-term Forex traders, and has no relevance outside of that limited role. Trying to compare gold or silver against it on anything but a very short-term basis is meaningless, as the DI is only a RELATIVE measure of the dollar, NOT an absolute one! What part of that do you not understand?

valerb
21st December 2009, 16:12
Sorry, Valerie, but you appear not to have read my whole post, or to have completely understood it. Again, let me repeat the crucial part:


The Dollar Index is NOT a meaningful measure of ANYTHING except where the dollar stands in relation to other currencies which are all ALSO sinking! IF the dollar index stood at, say, 0.80 in 1988, and returns to 0.80 today, that does NOT mean that the dollar has held steady in purchasing value over the interval --- it just means that the dollar, on average, depreciated as much as all the other currencies against which it is measured in this index. The dollar index, in fact, tells us NOTHING about the absolute purchasing power or value of the dollar at any given time.


You are correct in a way, that when one travels overseas, it is indeed the daily exchange rates between the dollar and foreign currencies that matter to that person at that time. That in no way takes anything away from the fact that the dollar index, as it is currently frequently being used, is irrelevant and meaningless for any long-term comparisons! The Dollar Index was originally (and should only be) used as a tool of short-term Forex traders, and has no relevance outside of that limited role. Trying to compare gold or silver against it on anything but a very short-term basis is meaningless, as the DI is only a RELATIVE measure of the dollar, NOT an absolute one! What part of that do you not understand?

First off, It's Vale not Valerie, as in he not she.

I understand what you are saying, but on a daily basis, it very well has an influence on the price of PM, just as it is again today. Dollar index is up, USD up .37, Silver down 32 cents and Gold down $21.80. How much of a short term basis do you want. That's all I've said, was that you have to watch the dollar on a daily basis, because it is real world measurement against everything including PM. I also said other factors come into play, but nothing as consistent as the dollar index when there are no other influences. Just look at these two for the past three or four weeks and tell me you can not see any comparisons.

I don't understand why your arguing with me, you admit it can influence PM on a short term basis!!!

akak
21st December 2009, 16:27
First off, It's Vale not Valerie, as in he not she.

I understand what you are saying, but on a daily basis, it very well has an influence on the price of PM, just as it is again today. Dollar index is up, USD up .37, Silver down 32 cents and Gold down $21.80. How much of a short term basis do you want. That's all I've said, was that you have to watch the dollar on a daily basis, because it is real world measurement against everything including PM. I also said other factors come into play, but nothing as consistent as the dollar index when there are no other influences. Just look at these two for the past three or four weeks and tell me you can not see any comparisons.

I don't understand why your arguing with me, you admit it can influence PM on a short term basis!!!

Well, I didn't really mean to argue with YOU, so much as with the sudden and almost ubiquitous use of the dollar index in the media as a supposed measure of the value of the dollar, when it is no such thing. I have seen this index being used by the corporate-controlled media much, much more in the last year than it ever was before, and it makes me mad because I think that is being done by the establishment very deliberately, to confuse the gullible and deflect attention away from the constant depreciation of the dollar. Making comparisons using graphs of the dollar index over a period of years is simply comparing apples to oranges, as the dollar (or any fiat currency) is NOT a stable measure of value, and I bristle when anyone (not saying you do so) tries to imply that it is. The US Dollar Index is nothing but a limited short-term indicator at best, and more often a purposeful tool of misinformation and obfuscation.