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View Full Version : Gold (and plausibly silver) and what happened in Zimbabwe.......



Aggie
15th December 2009, 02:13
A loaf of bread for 0.1 grams of gold. Wow. Never say it can't happen again. Even in the grand ol' U.S.A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM

ag

hippiebrian
15th December 2009, 02:27
It happened in a crooked, war-torn nation with brutal dictators and pretty much anarchy outside the castle. Not happening here, I'd bet on it.

fansubs_ca
15th December 2009, 05:31
The other consideration is that is an area where there is metal to be mined
by primitive methods so gold is the most liquid asset attainable by hard work.
At least at the moment it's what people can get to trade with. In non-mining
areas only the people that already have it will be able to spend it so the
masses maybe have to trade other things for what they need. As of now
as far as I know I'm no place near any minable gold.

akak
15th December 2009, 05:42
It happened in a crooked, war-torn nation with brutal dictators and pretty much anarchy outside the castle. Not happening here, I'd bet on it.


Which was a stable, prosperous, hopeful nation when I visited it in the middle 1980's.

Never say never --- history has time and again made fools of those who did just that.

hippiebrian
15th December 2009, 06:51
Which was a stable, prosperous, hopeful nation when I visited it in the middle 1980's.

Never say never --- history has time and again made fools of those who did just that.

It was a hopeful, prosperous nation prior to being taken over in a coup by violent, murderous dictators who robbed what they could and left most of the country in anarchy when they were done. This isn't and really won't happen here. Two totally different scenarios.

silverheartbone
15th December 2009, 07:39
A loaf of bread for 0.1 grams of gold. Wow. Never say it can't happen again. Even in the grand ol' U.S.A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM

ag

1 gram of gold is approximately $40

0.1 gram of gold is $4

Wake up Aggie, it already is happening here.

Silvature
15th December 2009, 09:04
Really? Historical references beg to differ.
1,000,000+ dead Iraqi's beg to differ.
Printed trillions, argues against assumption.
Robbing is illegal in America. None here, right Hippiebrain? WAKE UP.
Many scenarios are facades created by few, believed by millions. Paid for by all.
With complete dollar collapse, we will fight amongst ourselves over all formerly provided govt. controlled services. Everything. The best Dictator strategy, starve and create battle within enemy, US citizens.

Research troop homecoming. Not a single word you will hear. Cost reduction or budget savings created.... nobody says. Why bring home our troops from foreign bases before completing tour. Active troops stateside, hhmmm?

The difference between Dictator(Zimbabwe) and Oligarchy(US) is.... -0-.
Buy your loaves of bread, gold and silver. Silver is gluten free!


It was a hopeful, prosperous nation prior to being taken over in a coup by violent, murderous dictators who robbed what they could and left most of the country in anarchy when they were done. This isn't and really won't happen here. Two totally different scenarios.

Aggie
15th December 2009, 11:26
1 gram of gold is approximately $40

0.1 gram of gold is $4

Wake up Aggie, it already is happening here.


Oh trust me, I'm plenty woke up. Zimbabwe while extreme by today's standards will likely not be so extreme by tomorrow's considering the global economic situation. In fact what happened in Zimbabwe hard as it is to imagine may just be a picnic. We have more potential Zimbabs in the wings IMO than ever before.

ag

hippiebrian
15th December 2009, 21:32
Really? Historical references beg to differ.
1,000,000+ dead Iraqi's beg to differ.
Printed trillions, argues against assumption.
Robbing is illegal in America. None here, right Hippiebrain? WAKE UP.
Many scenarios are facades created by few, believed by millions. Paid for by all.
With complete dollar collapse, we will fight amongst ourselves over all formerly provided govt. controlled services. Everything. The best Dictator strategy, starve and create battle within enemy, US citizens.

Research troop homecoming. Not a single word you will hear. Cost reduction or budget savings created.... nobody says. Why bring home our troops from foreign bases before completing tour. Active troops stateside, hhmmm?

The difference between Dictator(Zimbabwe) and Oligarchy(US) is.... -0-.
Buy your loaves of bread, gold and silver. Silver is gluten free!


Well, I'm guessing that if you told a Zimbabwaen (sp?) this, then took him here to live for a month, he or she would beg to differ. We do not have a government which is anything like Zimbabwe's. I agree, the wars are atrocious, however, we don't (and despite what some people believe won't) have soldiers backed by our government slaughtering citizens and raping women. I still say, won't happen here. In fact, let me know when you think inflation will hit 1000%, and I'll put a c-note that it won't happen.

Cup-of-Ruin
15th December 2009, 23:16
Oh trust me, I'm plenty woke up. Zimbabwe while extreme by today's standards will likely not be so extreme by tomorrow's considering the global economic situation. In fact what happened in Zimbabwe hard as it is to imagine may just be a picnic. We have more potential Zimbabs in the wings IMO than ever before.

ag

Yes, if folks want a picture of the future, look no further than Zimbabwe, that may not sound like the 'feel good hit of the summer' that folks wanna hear, but that is what's comin', in fact, it will be worse, and i'm not talking 50 years from now, i'm talking in 4-5 years, we are heading down that way, gaining pace, faster and faster ever downwards until you have ex six-pack public sevant Joe and Sally soccer mom down on their knees digging in the dirt for 0.1 grams of gold, and if they don't get it, and the chances are if they don't buy it now with cash, it's most likely they will not do good at diggin for it either, so they will starve, that's what's comin'.

hippiebrian
16th December 2009, 00:04
Well, I'm guessing that if you told a Zimbabwaen (sp?) this, then took him here to live for a month, he or she would beg to differ. We do not have a government which is anything like Zimbabwe's. I agree, the wars are atrocious, however, we don't (and despite what some people believe won't) have soldiers backed by our government slaughtering citizens and raping women. I still say, won't happen here. In fact, let me know when you think inflation will hit 1000%, and I'll put a c-note that it won't happen.

Here's an example of the difference:http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091215/lf_afp/zimbabwepoliticshousing

Argyria
16th December 2009, 05:23
The main reason why Zimbabwe went down is because its productivity was agricultural. Then Robert Mugabe did his land distribution thing, saying it was unfair for white farmers to have all that land. Took the land away from them, and those that took over could not produce much of anything. No food, no GDP, country starves and is economically ruined. Completely self inflicted. Perfect example of how wealth redistribution can be disastrous.

Az2Africa
16th December 2009, 09:13
The main reason why Zimbabwe went down is because its productivity was agricultural. Then Robert Mugabe did his land distribution thing, saying it was unfair for white farmers to have all that land. Took the land away from them, and those that took over could not produce much of anything. No food, no GDP, country starves and is economically ruined. Completely self inflicted. Perfect example of how wealth redistribution can be disastrous.

Well put. I was running a Safari business out of Kenya 1996-2004 and watched it happen. Beautiful farms turned into weed patches.

Mighty_Men_of_Baltimore
16th December 2009, 09:21
It was a hopeful, prosperous nation prior to being taken over in a coup by violent, murderous dictators who robbed what they could and left most of the country in anarchy when they were done. This isn't and really won't happen here. Two totally different scenarios.

What do you think the banksters are doing now? Robbing all of us with the help of the Democratic Party. Not so different, except the robbery is still in the early stages. Could very well happen here.

UmassSteve
16th December 2009, 10:15
Really? Historical references beg to differ.
1,000,000+ dead Iraqi's beg to differ.
Printed trillions, argues against assumption.
Robbing is illegal in America. None here, right Hippiebrain? WAKE UP.
Many scenarios are facades created by few, believed by millions. Paid for by all.
With complete dollar collapse, we will fight amongst ourselves over all formerly provided govt. controlled services. Everything. The best Dictator strategy, starve and create battle within enemy, US citizens.

Research troop homecoming. Not a single word you will hear. Cost reduction or budget savings created.... nobody says. Why bring home our troops from foreign bases before completing tour. Active troops stateside, hhmmm?

The difference between Dictator(Zimbabwe) and Oligarchy(US) is.... -0-.
Buy your loaves of bread, gold and silver. Silver is gluten free!

If you are honestly worried that our soldiers will be used to repress us, control us, and or kill us to keep us in line, I beseech you to go get to know our soldiers. These men are not soldiers for a good pay check or because the government is forcing them. They are volunteers who are there because they love this country, and their fellow country men, enough to go risk their lives anywhere around the world. They are not kept in line by fear, they did not join the army because it is a great job for a thug like some countries. If the order came down for them to start killing US civilians, you can sure as hell bet mutiny and coup attempts would begin immediately.

That's why this talk of active US soldiers coming home never bothered me- I literally believe they are incapable of being forced to work against us in any real meaningful way. I feel that the people who worry about this kind of thing really do not know our soldiers.

silverheartbone
16th December 2009, 10:22
These men are not soldiers for a good pay check or because the government is forcing them. They are volunteers who are there because they love this country, and their fellow country men, enough to go risk their lives anywhere around the world. They are not kept in line by fear, they did not join the army because it is a great job for a thug like some countries.
Actually a great many, dare I say the majority are there exactly for the paycheck.

argent_pur
16th December 2009, 23:32
The main reason why Zimbabwe went down is because its productivity was agricultural. Then Robert Mugabe did his land distribution thing, saying it was unfair for white farmers to have all that land. Took the land away from them, and those that took over could not produce much of anything. No food, no GDP, country starves and is economically ruined. Completely self inflicted. Perfect example of how wealth redistribution can be disastrous.

Since you mention white farmers specifically, are you saying Mugabe took farms from them and gave them to black, err, farmers who didn't know what they were doing?

hippiebrian
16th December 2009, 23:40
Since you mention white farmers specifically, are you saying Mugabe took farms from them and gave them to black, err, farmers who didn't know what they were doing?

Not really. After the land was confiscated, it never got re-distributed therefore no one did anything with it, it just went to wild.

admthrwn
16th December 2009, 23:53
If you are honestly worried that our soldiers will be used to repress us, control us, and or kill us to keep us in line, I beseech you to go get to know our soldiers. These men are not soldiers for a good pay check or because the government is forcing them. They are volunteers who are there because they love this country, and their fellow country men, enough to go risk their lives anywhere around the world. They are not kept in line by fear, they did not join the army because it is a great job for a thug like some countries. If the order came down for them to start killing US civilians, you can sure as hell bet mutiny and coup attempts would begin immediately.

That's why this talk of active US soldiers coming home never bothered me- I literally believe they are incapable of being forced to work against us in any real meaningful way. I feel that the people who worry about this kind of thing really do not know our soldiers.


Don't think that the order will be to just detain and kill random US citizens, it comes about through villianizing groups of people. Look at the MIAC report for instance:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13290698/The-Modern-Militia-MovementMissouri-MIAC-Strategic-Report-20Feb09-

All the media has to do is spin any of us Ron Paul/Gold Standard/Free Market "nutcases" as terrorists and the masses will support it. Imagine the dollar collapse and the people not being able to buy food, energy, imports, and the government wants to keep giving out money, bailouts one after another to the people themselves. Will those that oppose that not seem like an enemy to all those "benefiting" from the government handouts?

Who knows what will happen, crazy **** has gone on before, crazy **** will continue to go on. Don't count anything out.

Look at Germany, they went through hyperinflation, and right after guess what happened.

First they came for the Libertarians, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a Libertarian;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a Jew;
Then they came for meóand there was no one left to speak out for me.

Az2Africa
17th December 2009, 00:16
Not really. After the land was confiscated, it never got re-distributed therefore no one did anything with it, it just went to wild.

No Brian, It went to people he said were veterans even though Zim had not been at war for decades. They were in fact his friends and cronies who basically pillaged anthing of value and left them. The people who had worked for the farmers and could have possibly made a go of it were not allowed to farm the land.

akak
17th December 2009, 00:30
No Brian, It went to people he said were veterans even though Zim had not been at war for decades. They were in fact his friends and cronies who basically pillaged anthing of value and left them. The people who had worked for the farmers and could have possibly made a go of it were not allowed to farm the land.

If Bush REALLY had wanted to overthrow a tyrant (not saying that it would have been justified, just playing devil's advocate here), he would have gone after Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and Kim Jong Il of North Korea, both of whom are pure evil and I hope have their own special toasty corners in Hell reserved for them.

hippiebrian
17th December 2009, 00:47
No Brian, It went to people he said were veterans even though Zim had not been at war for decades. They were in fact his friends and cronies who basically pillaged anthing of value and left them. The people who had worked for the farmers and could have possibly made a go of it were not allowed to farm the land.

Thanks! All I knew was that somehow, the land never got to the people who needed it...

fansubs_ca
17th December 2009, 02:28
I seem to also recall the people that got the farms were interested in
re-selling subsidized inputs (like fuel) but had no interest in farming.

Most people don't realize just how much brains farming takes. Working
in survey research I can safely say that when I have worked on farming
surveys I've gotten to talk to people more intelligent than any other
kind of survey I've worked on. (On average of course, individual
variations always apply. ;) )

hippiebrian
17th December 2009, 07:49
Believe it or not, the dollar and the rand to the rescue!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091217/bs_afp/zimbabweeconomychristmas

UmassSteve
17th December 2009, 18:02
Don't think that the order will be to just detain and kill random US citizens, it comes about through villianizing groups of people. Look at the MIAC report for instance:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13290698/The-Modern-Militia-MovementMissouri-MIAC-Strategic-Report-20Feb09-

All the media has to do is spin any of us Ron Paul/Gold Standard/Free Market "nutcases" as terrorists and the masses will support it. Imagine the dollar collapse and the people not being able to buy food, energy, imports, and the government wants to keep giving out money, bailouts one after another to the people themselves. Will those that oppose that not seem like an enemy to all those "benefiting" from the government handouts?

Who knows what will happen, crazy **** has gone on before, crazy **** will continue to go on. Don't count anything out.

Look at Germany, they went through hyperinflation, and right after guess what happened.

First they came for the Libertarians, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a Libertarian;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak outóbecause I was not a Jew;
Then they came for meóand there was no one left to speak out for me.

I think you're truly underestimating our army by comparing it to Germany's army before and during WWII. We don't have conscripts in an army scared of being put to death for being conscientious objectors. And Germany didn't just go through hyperinflation. They had their country reduced to rubble and were shackled with the most embarrassing reparations forced on them. They were humiliated, steam rolled, and put into a possible economic situation. If we enter hyperinflation, all of our farm land will still be in useable. All of our factories (whichever are still open) will still be functioning. Our people won't just be emerging from the worst war to ever occur at that time. Our army will not be full of conscripts.

Our people, while still far too easy to manipulate, will not be like Germany under Hitler. Our country is far too large, far too diverse, the internet far too hard to effectively censor, the media of our country and other countries too hard to effectively censor (though a good job is still being done). These fears of our government using martial law and having the military do atrocious things are so overblown it isn't even funny.

Argyria
18th December 2009, 01:07
Since you mention white farmers specifically, are you saying Mugabe took farms from them and gave them to black, err, farmers who didn't know what they were doing?

Some of it went to his friends, some to political supporters, and none of them had a clue how to farm.

Az2Africa
18th December 2009, 08:26
If Bush REALLY had wanted to overthrow a tyrant (not saying that it would have been justified, just playing devil's advocate here), he would have gone after Mugabe in Zimbabwe, and Kim Jong Il of North Korea, both of whom are pure evil and I hope have their own special toasty corners in Hell reserved for them.

I agree, but that could be said of any of the past administrations. Clinton sat by while genocide took place in Rwanada. But the sad truth is that the UN has sat on the sidelines doing nothing for 60 years as these despots steal and kill.
The fact is that those countries have no oil, so we let them deal with it themselves. But trust me, the first time a Bush bashing liberal soccer mom's SUV runs out of gas, she'll hoist the Jolly Roger and won't give a crap where we get the oil from.

UmassSteve
18th December 2009, 09:39
I agree, but that could be said of any of the past administrations. Clinton sat by while genocide took place in Rwanada. But the sad truth is that the UN has sat on the sidelines doing nothing for 60 years as these despots steal and kill.
The fact is that those countries have no oil, so we let them deal with it themselves. But trust me, the first time a Bush bashing liberal soccer mom's SUV runs out of gas, she'll hoist the Jolly Roger and won't give a crap where we get the oil from.

I'll tell you where we didn't get it from...

Iraq, because we trashed their oil producing capabilities and then European nations and China edged us out for most of the big rebuilding contracts and cozy oil arrangements.

Az2Africa
18th December 2009, 10:12
I'll tell you where we didn't get it from...

Iraq, because we trashed their oil producing capabilities and then European nations and China edged us out for most of the big rebuilding contracts and cozy oil arrangements.

I guess everyone bitched too much about Haliburton.:rolleyes:

hippiebrian
18th December 2009, 21:19
I guess everyone bitched too much about Haliburton.:rolleyes:

Umm, am I missing something here? Should we not have bitched about a no-bid contractor ripping us and the military off?

UmassSteve
19th December 2009, 10:49
I guess everyone bitched too much about Haliburton.:rolleyes:

Yeah. Definitely.

I'm sure haliburton's actions in murdering Iraqi civilians while above the law had nothing to do with Iraqi disdain for American corporations.

Az2Africa
20th December 2009, 23:19
Yeah. Definitely.

I'm sure haliburton's actions in murdering Iraqi civilians while above the law had nothing to do with Iraqi disdain for American corporations.

You two have the typical liberal koolaide to spread around. Did you ever check to see that Haliburton was the only American company in the region at the time large enough and that already had the security clearances to start immediately. Should we have hired the French or the Germans?
Also I guess the Iraqi civilians faired much better under Saddam. I'll bet the Kurds that he gassed would really go along with you on that.

hippiebrian
20th December 2009, 23:26
You two have the typical liberal koolaide to spread around. Did you ever check to see that Haliburton was the only American company in the region at the time large enough and that already had the security clearances to start immediately. Should we have hired the French or the Germans?
Also I guess the Iraqi civilians faired much better under Saddam. I'll bet the Kurds that he gassed would really go along with you on that.


This is the company you are feferring to. I heard no mention by any one here about how good Iraq was doing with Saddam in charge, and that was never the issue. He was an idiot, and I'm sure everyone can agree on that. The issue is that a company was given a no bid contract by a vice president who owned a lot of stock in the company. They then tended to twist the law and do whatever they pleased while bilking the U.S. taxpayer.

When you look at this link, remember, and I understand, that some of the links are opinion, however there are a lot of links to different factual events that have occured, enough to anger any American, imho:

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Az2Africa
20th December 2009, 23:52
This is the company you are feferring to. I heard no mention by any one here about how good Iraq was doing with Saddam in charge, and that was never the issue. He was an idiot, and I'm sure everyone can agree on that. The issue is that a company was given a no bid contract by a vice president who owned a lot of stock in the company. They then tended to twist the law and do whatever they pleased while bilking the U.S. taxpayer.

When you look at this link, remember, and I understand, that some of the links are opinion, however there are a lot of links to different factual events that have occured, enough to anger any American, imho:

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Or this link: http://www.factcheck.org/anti-bush_ad_overstates_case_against_halliburton.html

akak
20th December 2009, 23:54
Not taking either side here, but if anyone wants to talk about kool-aid drinkers, they would surely be those who still manage to hold onto the Bush propaganda-fed belief that the USA was somehow justified in invading Iraq. What a black mark against this country that neocon-led fiasco was, and is!

UmassSteve
21st December 2009, 00:02
You two have the typical liberal koolaide to spread around. Did you ever check to see that Haliburton was the only American company in the region at the time large enough and that already had the security clearances to start immediately. Should we have hired the French or the Germans?
Also I guess the Iraqi civilians faired much better under Saddam. I'll bet the Kurds that he gassed would really go along with you on that.

I'm not saying Haliburton is evil and we shouldn't have used them. I'm just saying that it is unfortunate that they were the only American company in use because their misconduct, and the misconduct (accidental or intentional) of the American military makes Iraqis completely ill at ease with American companies. And I honestly can't blame them. I don't know enough about the situation to offer alternatives, I'm just saying I'm not surprised or upset that Iraqi civilians and government officials want to minimize their exposure to America after six years of brutal war and nation building.

hippiebrian
21st December 2009, 00:07
Legal and prudent are two different things, for starters.

This is from your source:

"There's also disagreement over the size of the possible overcharge, should Halliburton's reading of its contract prove wrong. The company estimates that it has billed for 19 percent more meals than were actually consumed, while DCAA auditors say the figure could be as high as 36 percent."

19% is still stealing.
Nevertheless, the head of the DCAA, William Reed, testified June 15 to the House Committee on Government Reform that his auditors have found "substantial deficiencies" in the data provided by Halliburton to support its billing. "We are continuing to evaluate additional supporting information provided by KBR (Kellogg, Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary) and will be issuing final recommendations . . . in the near future."

"substantial deficiencies" aren't words that point to a legal and honest dealing.

Also, I do have to agree with akak here, in that this whole war had no legality to it whatsoever.

hippiebrian
21st December 2009, 00:56
Some more dug up on this company who "violated no laws":

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50P5ZE20090126

http://coloradoindependent.com/29053/haliburton-kbr-shareholders-sue-firms-as-proxy-for-bush-cheney-cronyism

They are so deep in debt in fines, their parent company doesn't even want them anymore http://coloradoindependent.com/29053/haliburton-kbr-shareholders-sue-firms-as-proxy-for-bush-cheney-cronyism


http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Halliburton_contractor_sued_for_human_trafficking_ 0828.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/halliburton-sued-for-forcing-nepalese-workers-to-iraq-911831.html

Az2Africa
21st December 2009, 01:15
I'm not saying Haliburton is evil and we shouldn't have used them. I'm just saying that it is unfortunate that they were the only American company in use because their misconduct, and the misconduct (accidental or intentional) of the American military makes Iraqis completely ill at ease with American companies. And I honestly can't blame them. I don't know enough about the situation to offer alternatives, I'm just saying I'm not surprised or upset that Iraqi civilians and government officials want to minimize their exposure to America after six years of brutal war and nation building.

Thank you Steve. That is an intelligent discussion of the subject. I'm not a rookie. I was in the US Navy during Vietnam, so I know about misguided wars. Was Iraq the right move? Only time will tell. But it's never a bad time to get rid of mass murderers. Was Haliburton corrupt in some of their dealings? Probably so. Corruption is a way of life in that region and gets things done. Not excusable though.
It is probably more about oil. The long view is that China's energy needs are going up and the Silk road leads the way through all of the oil fields in the various Stans(Uzbecistan etc.) and on to Iran and Iraq. They will do what is needed if their energy supplies get low and I suspect that an American presence in the region is seen as a buffer between them and the Gulf states.

Katwoman
21st December 2009, 02:06
Thank you Steve. That is an intelligent discussion of the subject. I'm not a rookie. I was in the US Navy during Vietnam, so I know about misguided wars. Was Iraq the right move? Only time will tell. But it's never a bad time to get rid of mass murderers. Was Haliburton corrupt in some of their dealings? Probably so. Corruption is a way of life in that region and gets things done. Not excusable though.
It is probably more about oil. The long view is that China's energy needs are going up and the Silk road leads the way through all of the oil fields in the various Stans(Uzbecistan etc.) and on to Iran and Iraq. They will do what is needed if their energy supplies get low and I suspect that an American presence in the region is seen as a buffer between them and the Gulf states.

Telling lies to the American people was not a good political move but taking out a dictator while simultaneously drawing the Al Qaeda terrorist hornets into Iraq where they could more easily be exterminated may yet prove to have been one of the most brilliant strategic military moves we could have made at the time. IMHO the situation in Afghanistan will likely prove to be untenable without at least 1 million American boots on the ground simply due to the mountainous terrain and the fact that nation building over there will literally be all but impossible. At least we still have a shot a making Iraq a "relatively" stable place and we so should pursue this end to the best of our ability before we get out of there completely.

As for Haliburton, I honestly think this nation has far bigger problems to concern itself with right now:(

Az2Africa
21st December 2009, 08:12
Telling lies to the American people was not a good political move but taking out a dictator while simultaneously drawing the Al Qaeda terrorist hornets into Iraq where they could more easily be exterminated may yet prove to have been one of the most brilliant strategic military moves we could have made at the time. IMHO the situation in Afghanistan will likely prove to be untenable without at least 1 million American boots on the ground simply due to the mountainous terrain and the fact that nation building over there will literally be all but impossible. At least we still have a shot a making Iraq a "relatively" stable place and we so should pursue this end to the best of our ability before we get out of there completely.

As for Haliburton, I honestly think this nation has far bigger problems to concern itself with right now:(

Well put. We need to keep our eye on the ball and not get distracted by in-fighting. Those pushing for a one world govt. and currancy push a lot of agendas to whip the masses into a frenzy while quietly stealing our rights.

UmassSteve
21st December 2009, 08:27
Actually, wait, I would make the argument that Haliburton is evil.

I had totally forgotten about the clause in the contract that said "Hey, if you're gang-raped by a bunch of your coworkers you can not sue us." I'm sure it is in Lawyerese, but it is still there.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Supporting-Halliburtons-Gang-Rape-Clause

http://www.republicansforrape.org/legislators/

The bottom page is just for fun. Terrible, true fun.

Az2Africa
21st December 2009, 11:25
Obviously a rape case should have been prosecuted in US court. Hell we're doing it for the terrorists. But the article seemed aimed at bringing up that case just to deflect from the Acorn weasels. I say we go after all crooks. Especially the politicians and money elites that are stealing our money and freedom.

My Pants Are Cold
21st December 2009, 18:12
This is the company you are feferring to. I heard no mention by any one here about how good Iraq was doing with Saddam in charge, and that was never the issue. He was an idiot, and I'm sure everyone can agree on that. The issue is that a company was given a no bid contract by a vice president who owned a lot of stock in the company. They then tended to twist the law and do whatever they pleased while bilking the U.S. taxpayer.

When you look at this link, remember, and I understand, that some of the links are opinion, however there are a lot of links to different factual events that have occured, enough to anger any American, imho:

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/

Actually hippy, if you do a bit of research you will find that Billy Bob Clinton is the one that set Haliburton up with the no bid contract crap. Al Gore is on record saying how wonderful an idea it was and that this is how an effecient government works.



Halliburton Received No-Bid Contracts During Clinton Administration For Work In Bosnia And Kosovo. “Halliburton has also gotten some no-bid jobs in Iraq, just as it did in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s, and for the same reason: Not a lot of other firms have similar expertise in supplying the U.S. military, and with a war on there’s no time to stage a lengthy bidding process.” (Max Boot, Op-Ed, “Don’t Blame Halliburton,” Los Angeles Times, 4/22/04)

During Clinton Administration, Halliburton Received $2.2 Billion From US Government For Work In Kosovo. “Between 1995 and 2000, while Democrat Bill Clinton ran the country and Republican Dick Cheney ran Halliburton, there was no talk of favoritism or political ties as the Houston-based company billed the government $2.2 billion for its work in Kosovo.” (James Rosen, “Is Iraq’s Reconstruction Rigged?” The [Raleigh] News & Observer, 10/5/03)
Halliburton’s Performance Praised By Former Vice President Al Gore’s “National Performance Review.” “[V]ice President Al Gore’s National Performance Review mentioned Halliburton’s performance in its Report on Reinventing the Department of Defense, issued in September 1996. In a section titled ‘Outsourcing of Logistics Allows Combat Troops to Stick to Basics,’ Gore’s reinventing-government team favorably mentioned LOGCAP, the cost-plus-award system, and Brown & Root, which the report said provided ‘basic life support services – food, water, sanitation, shelter, and laundry; and the full realm of logistics services – transportation, electrical, hazardous materials collection and disposal, fuel delivery, airfield and seaport operations, and road maintenance.’” (Byron York, “All Smoke, No Fire: The Administration’s Critics Are Wrong,” National Review, 7/14/03)

My Pants Are Cold
21st December 2009, 19:30
Not taking either side here, but if anyone wants to talk about kool-aid drinkers, they would surely be those who still manage to hold onto the Bush propaganda-fed belief that the USA was somehow justified in invading Iraq. What a black mark against this country that neocon-led fiasco was, and is!

Well, I feel there was much more justification for going into Iraq than there was for Clintons bombing Yugaslavia.

akak
21st December 2009, 19:36
Well, I feel there was much more justification for going into Iraq than there was for Clintons bombing Yugaslavia.

On a relative scale, perhaps, just slightly, yes, maybe.

On a real-life scale of practicality and morality? Fundamentally just as bad. Maybe worse, in fact, as many, many more people died as a result of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, and continue to do so.

UmassSteve
21st December 2009, 20:16
Also the invasion of Iraq is worse because....

Higher oil prices

Much higher cost to US tax payer

The whole massive casualties thing

Weakened our international standing by spreading our military cripplingly thin and inconveniencing and distancing most of our allies.

My Pants Are Cold
21st December 2009, 21:01
Also the invasion of Iraq is worse because....

Higher oil prices

Much higher cost to US tax payer

The whole massive casualties thing

Weakened our international standing by spreading our military cripplingly thin and inconveniencing and distancing most of our allies.

Wrong Steve, oil went up because of Katrina, NOT Iraq.

If I'm going to be taxed to death anyway, I'd rather my tax dollars be spent killing asshole dictators and their monster sons than feeding,clothing,housing,providing cell phones, etc. for people too lazy to work.

Pogue Colonel (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/): Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

Az2Africa
21st December 2009, 21:06
Also the invasion of Iraq is worse because....

Higher oil prices

Much higher cost to US tax payer

The whole massive casualties thing

Weakened our international standing by spreading our military cripplingly thin and inconveniencing and distancing most of our allies.

Steve, I have spent most of my life travelling to 90+ countries around the world. Not just tourist destinations, but some real Sh--holes and believe me the last thing the USA needs to do is suck up to 90% of them. Despite what the average PC American thinks, they respect an Ass Kicker more than an Ass Kisser. Appeasment to them is a sign of weakness.
Have we always put our best face foreward? No, and there have been deals that should not have been made. But the world and it's politics change daily and what is needed in one decade and seems right may not look right in the future.
We should always be vigilant, and folks like you and Hippiebrian are voices we need as well to shout out if something looks wrong. But we still need to stand together as a country because we are the only ones in the world that give a crap about our welfare.

JesterJay
21st December 2009, 21:12
This guy makes sense.
Must be a ______ (*fill in favorite "descriptive word" here)
JesterJay
*meaning YOUR favorite type of person. Good thing.



Steve, I have spent most of my life travelling to 90+ countries around the world. Not just tourist destinations, but some real Sh--holes and believe me the last thing the USA needs to do is suck up to 90% of them. Despite what the average PC American thinks, they respect an Ass Kicker more than an Ass Kisser. Appeasment to them is a sign of weakness.
Have we always put our best face foreward? No, and there have been deals that should not have been made. But the world and it's politics change daily and what is needed in one decade and seems right may not look right in the future.
We should always be vigilant, and folks like you and Hippiebrian are voices we need as well to shout out if something looks wrong. But we still need to stand together as a country because we are the only ones in the world that give a crap about our welfare.

Az2Africa
21st December 2009, 22:16
This guy makes sense.
Must be a ______ (*fill in favorite "descriptive word" here)
JesterJay
*meaning YOUR favorite type of person. Good thing.

Thanks Jay. I know a lot of Americans feel the same way about our country. I hope we can hang on to it.

UmassSteve
22nd December 2009, 12:56
Wrong Steve, oil went up because of Katrina, NOT Iraq.

If I'm going to be taxed to death anyway, I'd rather my tax dollars be spent killing asshole dictators and their monster sons than feeding,clothing,housing,providing cell phones, etc. for people too lazy to work.

Pogue Colonel (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0090124/): Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

Really, you're going to go with Katrina? That definitely helped buoy prices during 2005-2006, but that was followed by a massive down turn in price around january 2007 before sky rocketing up through 2008. Katrina definitely impacted oil prices, but its biggest effect was on gasoline prices (at least that's what I've been led to believe).

The bigger problems are general rising demand and it didn't help that we took Iraq's oil out put down a few million barrels for most of the years since the invasion.

And if we were just killing asshole dictators, there wouldn't be much in the way of morality issues. It just so happens that power drilling civilians, throwing acid on student's faces, and general torture, mayhem, and murder tend to accompany these things.

Az2Africa
22nd December 2009, 18:41
What cases are you refering to?