PDA

View Full Version : Silver scenarios & WWW III



Mighty Moose
29th November 2009, 00:59
This is not a nice topic, but does anyone want to comment on how they think silver would do on the breaking news of a massive-type war breaking out beyond anything we've seen since WW II.

Besides any monetary effects on silver, what specific industrial applications of silver are used in modern warfare that might bolster its value?

In appreciation,
MM

Smokey-Seven
29th November 2009, 06:00
I'll really have to give this some thought since I am aware of what silver did in WWII and have not thought through a relative position today.

Let me say as a preface that times are totally different now, in as much as silver is a much higher price than other metals commonly used in war material production.

A couple examples of WWII strangeness:

They pulled strategic metals out of our nickles and replaced those with silver since they needed the other stuff more. See references to war nickles.

They used silver in place of lead in the Manhattan Project as a radiation barrier. Lead was in short supply as well as copper.

They pulled the copper out of the pennies in 1943 (a real bad year in the war) and made them out of steel.

They used in some cases, steel casings for bullets instead of brass in 1943. We were really cranking out the inventory and supplies could not equal production numbers.

Today is different. I will give this some thought as it is a new concept I should have considered.

UmassSteve
29th November 2009, 09:51
That's a really hard question to answer. If WWII happened again right now, I'd say we probably wouldn't be facing confiscation because industrial and photographical demand for silver would plummet due to rationing and that probably would free up enough silver for military use: medical wrappings and electronics on everything. Probably leading to a good price inflation after a war was over assuming world wasn't ruined any worse than WWII.

If the same scenario happened half a decade or a decade from now, I'd throw my hat in for confiscation. Silver supplies will probably be real tight by then, and I can see the government confiscating the silver for national security without a second thought then. Silver will be in huge demand for home front and military use: Repairing a smart grid (hopefully, if something ever happens on it), medical wrappings for soldiers, putting silver into everything electronics related for the military, etc. And war rationing probably won't free up enough, ere go, if they know you have it, you lose it. For war bonds, of course. And assuming we come out the victor, not such a terrible trade if you can then reinvest, but still not good for us.

If WWIII really happens with our full arsenal of weapons? You enjoy your irradiated silver dead weight. I'll keep my radiation medication, food, and water.

TheLoneRanger
29th November 2009, 10:06
Not to put to fine a point on it.. but we are at war.. a global war, both in military and economic terms.. we have troops in 130 countries and our military budget on a per capita basis exceeds the war budget of WW2.

If we went all out.. like we did in WW2.. total unrestricted war, it wouldn't last long enough to switch production priorities or even print out ration books much less confiscate anything.

Mighty Moose
29th November 2009, 16:18
Thanks so far for your well thought out replies. My thoughts have leaned this way because it appears BIG WARS always follow major economic turmoil when there's apparantly no other way out to avoid financial ruin of a nation and subsequent loss of that nation's power, ie, the USA.

I believe the next major war to come will happen in the mideast starting with the USA, Iran & other nations to follow, within two years. War in this region would cause oil prices to rise dramatically for all the obvious reasons. So, I think the fuel costs associated with getting silver out of the ground or any other metals would become so cost prohibitive without major increases in the prices of all metals still deemed necessary. The question is can anyone see silver not being deemed necessary in this context, if not, even more so?

And to add, we all know the situation of available above ground silver that's reported. This depletion in reserves will probably be much worse by that time and even add more fuel to the fire, that's if you can find any for under $10 per gallon.

akak
29th November 2009, 16:23
And don't forget that every cruise missile has over 1000 ounces of silver in it, for example!

In such a scenario, I expect a call-in of silver, and a de facto "nationalization of strategic resources". "Hoarding" silver would be a "terrorist act" in that event.

What is Truth?
29th November 2009, 17:58
In a WWWIII scenario one would most likely find charred bodies in makeshift bunkers with bars or bags of silver still clinched in their hands. Let's get real about this folks.

TuffyLess
29th November 2009, 18:17
BIG WARS always follow major economic turmoil when there's apparantly no other way out to avoid financial ruin of a nation and subsequent loss of that nation's power, ie, the USA.

I believe that to be the trend of time. If a power cannot pay its debt to a debtor, the debtee goes to war w/ them. If the debtor is conquerred, then its easy to say "what debt?"



In such a scenario, I expect a call-in of silver, and a de facto "nationalization of strategic resources". "Hoarding" silver would be a "terrorist act" in that event.

yeh, your now a national threat eh. unpatriotic for not supporting the war w/ your ag. but then, the gov would give you an IOU note so hey ... its all good :)

silverheartbone
29th November 2009, 18:32
This is not a nice topic, but does anyone want to comment on how they think silver would do on the breaking news of a massive-type war breaking out beyond anything we've seen since WW II.

It would melt.

Steadfast
30th November 2009, 10:18
Sure, i would do my Duty as a citizen in war time...

BUT...I'd wait for silver to JUMP in price first,
THEN I would do "my patriaotic duty" by traiding it for Gold.

Steadfast
1st December 2009, 10:24
To be more real to this scenereo:

The USA has become so efficient at killing that
an all out war with someone like China/Russia would be a lightning fast gnarly bloodfest.

Unless, the use of our nukes where not effective, or there use was shied away from,
then a protracted ground war on either continent or on both would result.
And once that took place, kiss any national government control good bye.

The survivors would be reduced to local government control,
defending their local towns in ground battles, and futalism would result.
At this point, Gold and silver, Guns and ammo, food and water, would be the only currencies of any consequence or reality.

Ugly...Truly ugly

Argyria
1st December 2009, 10:32
And don't forget that every cruise missile has over 1000 ounces of silver in it, for example!

In such a scenario, I expect a call-in of silver, and a de facto "nationalization of strategic resources". "Hoarding" silver would be a "terrorist act" in that event.

Show me a reference for this please. I would like to see how a cruise missile requires 70 lbs of silver.

akak
1st December 2009, 13:12
Show me a reference for this please. I would like to see how a cruise missile requires 70 lbs of silver.

To be honest, I was just repeating an often-quoted figure that I have read in other forums and articles, but I cannot verify the accuracy of the statement. I have many times read that each cruise missile requires on the order of at least several hundred ounces of silver for all the electronic hardware they contain.

Steadfast
1st December 2009, 15:31
An interesting thing to point out is that when a missile or torpedo explodes, as much as 1400 ounces of silver is vaporized. ......

Wow! I never knew cruse missiles targeted and went after people’s large silver stashes like that!
I am so glad that I don’t yet own more that 1400 ounces of Silver!

God help me if i keep stacking!

Heck, If they fired one of those things off over Raleigh NC!
I could loose my whole house!

He he he...;)

Cup-of-Ruin
1st December 2009, 18:30
This what I found in an article from Kenneth Parsons, aka Johny Silver Bear:

.....
"Other clients (of the Silver Users Association, SN) include Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, General Dynamics, American Superconductor, and Intermagnetics General who use even greater quantities of silver for the production of super conducting cables, missiles and torpedoes. All companies that produce electrical components for use in weapons, high tech aircraft, fighting vehicles, ships, communication devices, almost everything that has to do with the war machine, depend heavily on silver.

An interesting thing to point out is that when a missile or torpedo explodes, as much as 1400 ounces of silver is vaporized. This is one of the industrial reasons why the above ground stockpiles of silver have already been depleted to the point of scarcity. The artificial capping of the price of any commodity is not unlike the insertion of a huge cork in a volcano. This can result in nothing less than the massive explosion of its price in the immediate future." ......

Yea this is interesting, the military have been using silver-zinc batteries in their missiles and torpedoes for many years, and it will not be too long, perhaps a couple of years before all main industries are doing the same, silver-zinc batteries are vastly superior, I believe the latest laptops are already using them or soon will be. Silver will be one of the leading technological materials in the 21st century.

Argyria
1st December 2009, 23:46
This what I found in an article from Kenneth Parsons, aka Johny Silver Bear:

.....
"Other clients (of the Silver Users Association, SN) include Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, General Dynamics, American Superconductor, and Intermagnetics General who use even greater quantities of silver for the production of super conducting cables, missiles and torpedoes. All companies that produce electrical components for use in weapons, high tech aircraft, fighting vehicles, ships, communication devices, almost everything that has to do with the war machine, depend heavily on silver.

An interesting thing to point out is that when a missile or torpedo explodes, as much as 1400 ounces of silver is vaporized. This is one of the industrial reasons why the above ground stockpiles of silver have already been depleted to the point of scarcity. The artificial capping of the price of any commodity is not unlike the insertion of a huge cork in a volcano. This can result in nothing less than the massive explosion of its price in the immediate future." ......

I'm going to have to look into this further. I think it must be the batteries that use all that silver. For most electronics only tiny amounts are needed. I don't think I'm going to take that guy's word for it though. Not exactly a technical, or unbiased source.

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 00:25
Ok, here's what I got so far.

"Silver oxide batteries have a long life and very high energy/weight ratio, but a prohibitive cost for most applications due to the high price of silver....The large cells found some applications with the military, for example in Mark 37 torpedoes or on Alfa class submarines."

Found this about silver-zinc batteries for torpedoes.

http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/defence/Cube769/DM2A1.4872504d-1781-4dd3-9e43-5b6277e175c5.pdf

Looks like it weighs in at 402 Kg.

Not sure how much of that is silver. Silver and zinc react 1:1, but there is also the weight of the nitrogen tank, the electrolyte tank, the electrolyte, the circuitry, and the overall battery case. If we were to just pull a number out of our asses and say 10%, that would mean 40.2 Kg silver per battery. That would be 88.44 lbs, or about 1290 troy ounces.

From http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Harpoon.html

"The Sustainer Section provides structural support for the missile wings and the fuel tank cavity is used to house two oneshot silver zinc batteries, once activated these provide power for the avionics. "

Doing similar calculations on these, I come up with on the order of 4-5 lbs silver used in each. For missiles including cruise missiles, the batteries are used only to power avionics, which are computers. In contrast, for torpedoes, the batteries are used as the propulsion power for the entire munition. So, it would seem that 70 lbs of silver is probably a bit much for a cruise missile, but is in the right range for use in torpedoes.

TheLoneRanger
2nd December 2009, 00:35
A somebody that worked on every type of heavy weapon in the US Army for 20 years From 105mm Howitzer rounds up thru Pershing II and everything in between both warheads and guidance packages and on Naval weapons as a civilian before that

And as somebody who knows a Tomahawk.. one of the heavest cruise missles out there.. weights 2650 pounds all up and 3200 pounds with a booster rocket motor I must surmise that the Navy or Air Force has either found a way to make silver explosive or burn like rocket fuel to get 1400 lbs on silver on aboard... If there is more than an ounce of silver in a cruise missle I'll take apart test and reassemble and repaint another 100 of them puppies for free...

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 00:39
A somebody that worked on every type of heavy weapon in the US Army for 20 years From 105mm Howitzer rounds up thru Pershing II and everything in between both warheads and guidance packages and on Naval weapons as a civilian before that

And as somebody who knows a Tomahawk.. one of the heavest cruise missles out there.. weights 2650 pounds all up and 3200 pounds with a booster rocket motor I must surmise that the Navy or Air Force has either found a way to make silver explosive or burn like rocket fuel to get 1400 lbs on silver on aboard... If there is more than an ounce of silver in a cruise missle I'll take apart test and reassemble and repaint another 100 of them puppies for free...

Actually as I found out from my research above, its possible it contains several pounds of silver for its silver zinc batteries to power the avionics systems in the missile. But not even close to 70 lbs. 1400 lbs was never suggested, it was 1400 ounces. But I think that's only torpedoes, missiles don't seem to require that much.

"when a missile or torpedo explodes, as much as 1400 ounces of silver is vaporized."

Perhaps you could help nail this down further. How big are the batteries in a Tomahawk cruise missile? How much do they weigh?

TheLoneRanger
2nd December 2009, 01:10
Actually as I found out from my research above, its possible it contains several pounds of silver for its silver zinc batteries to power the avionics systems in the missile. But not even close to 70 lbs. 1400 lbs was never suggested, it was 1400 ounces. But I think that's only torpedoes, missiles don't seem to require that much.

"when a missile or torpedo explodes, as much as 1400 ounces of silver is vaporized."

Perhaps you could help nail this down further. How big are the batteries in a Tomahawk cruise missile? How much do they weigh?

Missles haven't used batteries ( at least nothing you would recognize as a battery) for a several decades.. way to much maintenance and reliability problems.. especially after long storage periods and then an instant need at launch.. Tomahawks have a turbofan engine and are boosted by a solid fuel rocket The turbofan spins up from air coming in the intakes during the boosted flight phase which also powers up the generator.. there are a whole class of mechanical and explosive mechanical devices that can generate large ammounts of electricity for short periods that can be stored in capacitors or used for short periods such as pizeo-electric ceramic crystals . like you might find on your BBQ grill lighter that can throw a spark when a spark is needed like maybe in a fuse.

Anytime you have something that is designed to work flying or falling thru the air at hundreds of miles per hour or has a motor of some kind you use a generator either powered by the airflow or the motor.. or some device like pizeo crystal if you want a component like a fuze completely isolated from any other electrical power.

Lets say you are going to shoot a smart artillery shell, you need power to run the micro computer and laser reciever or proximity ( radar ) fuze.. well you got a shell spinning at some ungodlly rate .. for example a 5.56 bullet leaves the muzzle at 3000 fps and is shot from a barrel with a 1 in 8 inch twist 3000 fps / .67 ( 8 inches being 2/3rds of a foot ) or 4477 revolutions in 1 second or X 60 seconds gives you 265,656 rpm in less than a second.. and granted arty shells in general go a little slower ( tank shells go a whole lot faster btw) and spin a little slower but you get the idea.. now in a shell you have a small chamber surrounded by copper wires and a in that chamber you have a small steel weight isolated from the initial spin up of the shell by having it on a low friction axel.. so it doesn't spin up as fast.. instant generator throw ina couple diodes and you got a stable current to power whatever you want instantly generated , inert in storage with nothing to fail.. see no battery needed lots of missle rocket bullet things use similar tricks.. no batteries

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 01:22
Missles haven't used batteries ( at least nothing you would recognize as a battery) for a several decades.. way to much maintenance and reliability problems.. especially after long storage periods and then an instant need at launch.. Tomahawks have a turbofan engine and are boosted by a solid fuel rocket The turbofan spins up from air coming in the intakes during the boosted flight phase which also powers up the generator.. there are a whole class of mechanical and explosive mechanical devices that can generate large ammounts of electricity for short periods that can be stored in capacitors or used for short periods such as pizeo-electric ceramic crystals . like you might find on your BBQ grill lighter that can throw a spark when a spark is needed like maybe in a fuse.

Anytime you have something that is designed to work flying or falling thru the air at hundreds of miles per hour or has a motor of some kind you use a generator either powered by the airflow or the motor.. or some device like pizeo crystal if you want a component like a fuze completely isolated from any other electrical power

Interesting. So I guess its only torpedoes then that use zinc silver batteries. I guessed there was more to this story than 70 lbs of silver per missile.

TheLoneRanger
2nd December 2009, 01:35
Interesting. So I guess its only torpedoes then that use zinc silver batteries. I guessed there was more to this story than 70 lbs of silver per missile.

I edited to add an example and we cross posted .. you know torpedos back in the old day used a hydrogen peroxide chemical steam generator to power the props... and think for a minute... why would you put a battery in something that is going to be traveling thru saltwater when saltwater is an electrolyte if the proper metals are present.. you can use the whole exterior skin of a torpedo as the anode and cathode... adding batteries seems a bit silly don't you think?

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 01:40
I edited to add an example and we cross posted .. you know torpedos back in the old day used a hydrogen peroxide chemical steam generator to power the props... and think for a minute... why would you put a battery in something that is going to be traveling thru saltwater when saltwater is an electrolyte if the proper metals are present.. you can use the whole exterior skin of a torpedo as the anode and cathode... adding batteries seems a bit silly don't you think?

Torpedoes don't need a little electricity to power electronics, they need a lot of it, because some torpedoes are electrically propelled. It takes a lot of juice to propel a torpedo at > 30 knots for a minute or two through water. Let me find you a reference.

http://www.saftbatteries.com/doc/Documents/defence/Cube769/DM2A1.4872504d-1781-4dd3-9e43-5b6277e175c5.pdf

There we go. That document is dated 2005. Clearly, some torpedoes use these large zinc silver batteries for propulsion.

Interesting about the artillery shells. Quite a clever way to get some temporary electricity.

It appears at least some missiles have recently used silver zinc batteries for some reason. For instance the McDonnell-Douglas AGM-84A Harpoon and AGM-84E SLAM

From http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-Harpoon.html

"The Sustainer Section provides structural support for the missile wings and the fuel tank cavity is used to house two oneshot silver zinc batteries, once activated these provide power for the avionics. "

LETMYSILVERGO
2nd December 2009, 01:43
wHY DON'T U SNEAK ONE OUT AND WE WILL HAVE A CLOSER LOOK AT IT... I OFFER TO HUNT FOR THE SILVER

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 01:46
wHY DON'T U SNEAK ONE OUT AND WE WILL HAVE A CLOSER LOOK AT IT... I OFFER TO HUNT FOR THE SILVER

Safely retrieving the silver from a silver zinc battery is trickier than it sounds. In my research on this subject I've come across a few entries for patents for recycling companies to recover the silver from these batteries, because that's the only way such batteries are going to be cost effective in the long run.

TheLoneRanger
2nd December 2009, 01:51
Apparently so... clever those Germans... notice the mention of an explosive injection of elctrolyte.. shelf life issues ect so much manitenance so many parts

Argyria
2nd December 2009, 01:54
Apparently so... clever those Germans... notice the mention of an explosive injection of elctrolyte.. shelf life issues ect so much manitenance so many parts

Yes exactly, the shelf life is maintained by injecting the electrolyte at the last minute so the battery doesn't degrade in storage.

TheLoneRanger
2nd December 2009, 02:29
Yes exactly, the shelf life is maintained by injecting the electrolyte at the last minute so the battery doesn't degrade in storage.

Several other ways to do the same thing, simpler or less moving parts.. how about a solid thats inert as a solid that you can melt and is an electrolyte when liquid.. always more than one way to skin a cat

paper_no_more
2nd December 2009, 07:18
An interesting thread, I think if a world war happened now it most certainly would go nuclear, and I doubt there would be much of a world to actually buy anything, so the silver, gold etc wouldn't be that important.

I once took a week in my motorhome up into the western islands of Scotland, during a winter when it was all quiet and snowy peaks. I saw a very unusual and truly gigantic arrow shaped aircraft, it was a real monster, I really think about 300 yards long, just hovering silently above the water in a cove. I was about 800 yards from it. Then, it just shot up into the sky, so instantly fast that for a millisecond it looked like a huge black rope going up into the sky.

I do not believe in aliens, period. But whoever runs those things, runs this planet. Are they Brits, Americans, or a group that don't have a national allegiance? I don't know, but I doubt they would tolerate this planet being irradiated for thousands of years.

Wonder how much silver those babies use?