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silversurfer1
24th September 2009, 07:16
The USDollar DX index will probably head below the critical support at 70 sometime early next year, or late this year. Its movements are increasingly volatile, in a bad way. A global revolt against the US$ is underway with full speed. The only US$ support comes from monetization and deception, as the Printing Pre$$ is active. The nation is insolvent in most every respect. No return to normalcy will come, despite the hopes and dreams of US leaders, unfortunately trapped inside the USDome, where perceptions are flawed. The US financial structure is permanently broken. In reaction to today’s FOMC decision to leave interest rates alone, the USDollar has resumed its decline. It will soon amplify its downward direction. While they spoke with optimistic words, the truth is that they are stuck without an Exit Strategy, which will become painfully clear over the passage of time.
1074

cabtrom
24th September 2009, 07:23
Paaaaaraaaanoooid!

silversurfer1
24th September 2009, 07:50
Cabtrom you are either joking or are deaf/dumb/blind.

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 07:56
Paaaaaraaaanoooid!

BLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND!

cabtrom
24th September 2009, 08:38
Well you don't have to be mean about it. I'm all about silver advancing, however it just seems a little over the top to say our dollar would take a total crap. I was thinking about this and I always come back to the same conclusion that the bank (wells Fargo) is not going to take anything but USD to pay my mortgage. If this is the case how could the dollar fail? Please don't be so hard on me dude I've only stumbled on to silver about a year ago. I'm 36 and it realy wasn't but a couple of years ago that I became aware of the realities of our money system. As phoney as it is, it is all we know if you were born well after the great depression. Maybe I'm just trying to reasure myself that everything will be ok by saying "your" paranoid when the fact is I may be a little nervous about our future. So I apologize if I offended you I may just be projecting or maybe I watch to much CNBC cause I'm just waiting for Cavuto to say this is goldylox again, what a jackass!

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 08:47
Well you don't have to be mean about it. I'm all about silver advancing, however it just seems a little over the top to say our dollar would take a total crap. I was thinking about this and I always come back to the same conclusion that the bank (wells Fargo) is not going to take anything but USD to pay my mortgage. If this is the case how could the dollar fail? Please don't be so hard on me dude I've only stumbled on to silver about a year ago. I'm 36 and it realy wasn't but a couple of years ago that I became aware of the realities of our money system. As phoney as it is, it is all we know if you were born well after the great depression. Maybe I'm just trying to reasure myself that everything will be ok by saying "your" paranoid when the fact is I may be a little nervous about our future. So I apologize if I offended you I may just be projecting or maybe I watch to much CNBC cause I'm just waiting for Cavuto to say this is goldylox again, what a jackass!

I was just trying to dish back what you dished out ;)

The fact is, all throughout history, most people thought their own FIAT CURRENCY would never ever fail. None has withstood the test of time and before you try to say the dollar, the current dollar has only been in existence since 1971....... and it is not doing too good less than 40 years later.

TheLoneRanger
24th September 2009, 09:05
The part that keeps bothering me is the future tense. Folks we have already lost 95% of the purchasing power of the dollar in the last 80 years.. most of it in the last 40 years.. and somehow we think losing another couple of percent of purchasing power is some critical crisis cliff that justifies the term crash at this point... the dollar's crash is fiat accompli ( pun intended) .. down 95% is a crash .. crash is done done already. We are just waiting for the final steps in the very last days of the dollar. Our lives have changed dramatically from one wage earner families to all the kids in day care as the norm, from family meals to corkboards full of notes or text messages. From savings to debt.

Does anybody even see anything that resembles an attempt to turn the trend of the dollar, the budget, the deficit, the policies, arround?

I just don't get it... how can folks think that a 95% loss in value is NOT a crash and a 96% loss in value is a crash?

cabtrom
24th September 2009, 09:06
I know, it's just seems like "paranoia" looking at what will probably become a new reality.
I want to be placed back into my matrix pod and want to remember nothing.
Except "buy silver" hehe .

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 09:14
The part that keeps bothering me is the future tense. Folks we have already lost 95% of the purchasing power of the dollar in the last 80 years.. most of it in the last 40 years.. and somehow we think losing another couple of percent of purchasing power is some critical crisis cliff that justifies the term crash at this point... the dollar's crash is fiat accompli ( pun intended) .. down 95% is a crash .. crash is done done already. We are just waiting for the final steps in the very last days of the dollar. Our lives have changed dramatically from one wage earner families to all the kids in day care as the norm, from family meals to corkboards full of notes or text messages. From savings to debt.

Does anybody even see anything that resembles an attempt to turn the trend of the dollar, the budget, the deficit, the policies, arround?

I just don't get it... how can folks think that a 95% loss in value is NOT a crash and a 96% loss in value is a crash?

It is, and most look at people making more money, but don't look at the purchasing power they are losing.

When I say dollar crash, I'm talking no one excepting it anymore. It no longer can be used as a form of currency.

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 09:14
I know, it's just seems like "paranoia" looking at what will probably become a new reality.
I want to be placed back into my matrix pod and want to remember nothing.
Except "buy silver" hehe .

Is that the red or blue pill?

cabtrom
24th September 2009, 09:21
All I want to know is how much time and what will become a medium of exchange? None of the people I know own any pm's so it could be lonely at the top.

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 10:28
All I want to know is how much time and what will become a medium of exchange? None of the people I know own any pm's so it could be lonely at the top.

Not lonely.
The opposite.
Those with pm's will make many new friends quickly in that situation.

MiloMorai
24th September 2009, 19:30
Not lonely.
The opposite.
Those with pm's will make many new friends quickly in that situation.

Yeah but watch your back, you won't be able to trust them.

DaBrownsRPhat
24th September 2009, 20:00
Yeah but watch your back, you won't be able to trust them.

Of course, but I also believe the great majority of people are good people. You do have to be aware though.

SeekrBrnEvryMin
24th September 2009, 20:39
All I want to know is how much time and what will become a medium of exchange? None of the people I know own any pm's so it could be lonely at the top.

SDRs, soon enough.

SeekrBrnEvryMin
24th September 2009, 20:47
The USDollar DX index will probably head below the critical support at 70 sometime early next year, or late this year. Its movements are increasingly volatile, in a bad way. A global revolt against the US$ is underway with full speed. The only US$ support comes from monetization and deception, as the Printing Pre$$ is active. The nation is insolvent in most every respect. No return to normalcy will come, despite the hopes and dreams of US leaders, unfortunately trapped inside the USDome, where perceptions are flawed. The US financial structure is permanently broken. In reaction to today’s FOMC decision to leave interest rates alone, the USDollar has resumed its decline. It will soon amplify its downward direction. While they spoke with optimistic words, the truth is that they are stuck without an Exit Strategy, which will become painfully clear over the passage of time.
1074

I'm not yet convinced that the US financial cabal is stupid! ROFLMAO!

Global money policy has been politicized for 50 years. Did you not know?

As world currencies tank, watch for further concessions to Special Drawing Rights with the IMF.

Hint: Tough to keep trading partners without a workable basis. Especially if you can exploit weakness going in. The Federal Reserve is managing dollar contingencies; wouldn't you agree?

valerb
25th September 2009, 01:27
Folks we have already lost 95% of the purchasing power of the dollar in the last 80 years..

So what!!!!

The average factory worker made $16.89 per week in 1929. To make up that 95% in lost purchasing power, they would have to make $320.00 per week today. How many factory workers do you know that only make $8 an hour today? This is always a one sided argument about the loss of purchasing power, but everyone seems to leave out the part where our wages have out pace the loss in purchasing power. I knew families that lived in two and three room apartments back in the 50's and "both" parents worked. You can buy a monstrous 1080P flat screen TV for what you paid for a sorry 25" color TV in the 50's. If you were lucky enough to afford a telephone in your home back then, you had to share it with several of your neighbors. For the younger generation that never heard about a party line. The same phone number was shared by several different houses. Anyone could pick-up the phone and dial or listen in on other peoples conversations.

As long as we have a functioning currency, the only thing that matters to the average person is, how much can I buy with my weekly paycheck!!!

Back then, if you lost your job and 1929 was not the best of times, you were out in the street. Today we have welfare, unemployment insurance, food stamps and mortgage companies that won't throw us out until we have stopped paying them for at least six months. They had a cold curb and soup kitchens.

Cup-of-Ruin
25th September 2009, 03:35
So what!!!!

The average factory worker made $16.89 per week in 1929. To make up that 95% in lost purchasing power, they would have to make $320.00 per week today. How many factory workers do you know that only make $8 an hour today? This is always a one sided argument about the loss of purchasing power, but everyone seems to leave out the part where our wages have out pace the loss in purchasing power. I knew families that lived in two and three room apartments back in the 50's and "both" parents worked. You can buy a monstrous 1080P flat screen TV for what you paid for a sorry 25" color TV in the 50's. If you were lucky enough to afford a telephone in your home back then, you had to share it with several of your neighbors. For the younger generation that never heard about a party line. The same phone number was shared by several different houses. Anyone could pick-up the phone and dial or listen in on other peoples conversations.

As long as we have a functioning currency, the only thing that matters to the average person is, how much can I buy with my weekly paycheck!!!

Back then, if you lost your job and 1929 was not the best of times, you were out in the street. Today we have welfare, unemployment insurance, food stamps and mortgage companies that won't throw us out until we have stopped paying them for at least six months. They had a cold curb and soup kitchens.

Your missing out a small detail, just a minor issue really, and that is the tens of trillions of dollars of Debt that America has accumulated at the expense of the rest of the world, my question to you would be if Americans were to honour that debt tommorrow would the dollar still have the same purchasing power?

ccjoe
25th September 2009, 03:58
Your missing out a small detail, just a minor issue really, and that is the tens of trillions of dollars of Debt that America has accumulated at the expense of the rest of the world, my question to you would be if Americans were to honour that debt tommorrow would the dollar still have the same purchasing power?

Very good points by Val and Cup. Thanks for showing us BOTH sides of the issue.
Growing up in the 60's middle class was NOT as good a standard of living as today BUT things are looking ugly. Thank God all of us on the websites have a heads up to plan.

JCM6395
25th September 2009, 04:40
[QUOTE=TheLoneRanger;71263]

Does anybody even see anything that resembles an attempt to turn the trend of the dollar, the budget, the deficit, the policies, arround?
QUOTE]

Nope....and that is what is scaring the hell out of me. There is no attempt whatsoever for us facing our inner self. Until we do we are F'd. Obama doesn't give a crap if he puts us into national bankruptcy as long as he expands government. When bankruptcy hits we will be a 3rd world country in every sense of the word.

valerb
25th September 2009, 04:56
Your missing out a small detail, just a minor issue really, and that is the tens of trillions of dollars of Debt that America has accumulated at the expense of the rest of the world, my question to you would be if Americans were to honour that debt tommorrow would the dollar still have the same purchasing power?

How many nations around the world could honor their debt on the spot? For that matter how many individuals could honor their debt on the spot?

We are not in this alone, most of the world is in just as deep as we are. We may have more debt, but we also have more income. This is not Panama struggling with a massive debt.

Even if the dollar dropped to zero, we would still be one of the richest countries in the world. Keep in mind that a fiat currency is worthless. With the dollar dropping to zero, we no longer owe anything. However, assuming that we really have 8,000 tons of Gold, we are the richest nation in the world. I know, it's not really there, so everyone keeps telling me. What if it is? Are we not still in the game. A lot of pissed off countries around the world, but we don't owe them anything. So we do not turn into this overnight 3rd world country so many claim we are destined for. Besides, if they have to save our country one way or another, I seriously doubt that WWIII would be out of the question. These are ruthless people controlling trillions of dollars and they have the most advanced military the world has ever seen and does anyone seriously think they are going to play nice if push comes to shove.

I still like the concept that was mentioned during the Clinton administration. If we get into serious trouble, we just convert all of the outstanding short term federal notes into 30 year notes. Of course we might have a problem selling more, but no one will be able to start a fire sale causing the dollar to collapse. If China has all that money tied up for 30 years, are they going to do anything to cause the dollar to drop and lose the value of their long term investments.

I also think we should pull manufacturing operations out of China to offset any dollar amount of the reserves that they decrease. Same goes for Japan. Japan wants the US military out of Japan. I say we should go and sever all military ties with them. We could still have naval bases in South Korea and Taiwan. If they didn't want to co-operate, pull out of our ties with them as well. There is no way in hell all of these countries are going to become one big happy family. The North will invade South Korea and China will finally take back Taiwan. As for Japan, not a lot of love between them and China. I say let them sever all military ties and we should sever all commercial trade. We know how to make things, we did it in the past and we can do it again. Hell we might even need to hire some Mexicans legally. Full employment sounds good to me. Think how many auto workers we would put back to work if we no longer imported cars from Japan and Korea. Is it feasible to start a shoe manufacturer here in the US? It sure is, if there are none coming from China. The same goes for furniture and thousands of other items. The question then comes up, wouldn't that drive prices through the roof. Not necessarily. I saw a news bit on a network channel about Nike shoes. The factory was selling a pair of tennis shoes to Nike for $20 and the workers were making approximately $2 for each pair. Nike in turn sells these shoes at the stores for $80 or more. What happened to the good old days when the manufacture sold his product to the store and they marked the price up 100%. If China can produce a pair of tennis shoes for $20 and make a good profit, why in the hell can't an American company make the same shoe for under $40 and sell it for $80 like Nike. But lets be real, there is no way in hell it would cost $40 to manufacture a pair of tennis shoes in this country, unless someone was making them by hand.

The bottom line is, we are not going to become a 3rd world country no matter what happens short of our country being destroyed by war or a natural disaster.

JCM6395
25th September 2009, 06:03
How many nations around the world could honor their debt on the spot? For that matter how many individuals could honor their debt on the spot?

We are not in this alone, most of the world is in just as deep as we are. We may have more debt, but we also have more income. This is not Panama struggling with a massive debt.

Even if the dollar dropped to zero, we would still be one of the richest countries in the world. Keep in mind that a fiat currency is worthless. With the dollar dropping to zero, we no longer owe anything. However, assuming that we really have 8,000 tons of Gold, we are the richest nation in the world. I know, it's not really there, so everyone keeps telling me. What if it is? Are we not still in the game. A lot of pissed off countries around the world, but we don't owe them anything. So we do not turn into this overnight 3rd world country so many claim we are destined for. Besides, if they have to save our country one way or another, I seriously doubt that WWIII would be out of the question. These are ruthless people controlling trillions of dollars and they have the most advanced military the world has ever seen and does anyone seriously think they are going to play nice if push comes to shove.

I still like the concept that was mentioned during the Clinton administration. If we get into serious trouble, we just convert all of the outstanding short term federal notes into 30 year notes. Of course we might have a problem selling more, but no one will be able to start a fire sale causing the dollar to collapse. If China has all that money tied up for 30 years, are they going to do anything to cause the dollar to drop and lose the value of their long term investments.

I also think we should pull manufacturing operations out of China to offset any dollar amount of the reserves that they decrease. Same goes for Japan. Japan wants the US military out of Japan. I say we should go and sever all military ties with them. We could still have naval bases in South Korea and Taiwan. If they didn't want to co-operate, pull out of our ties with them as well. There is no way in hell all of these countries are going to become one big happy family. The North will invade South Korea and China will finally take back Taiwan. As for Japan, not a lot of love between them and China. I say let them sever all military ties and we should sever all commercial trade. We know how to make things, we did it in the past and we can do it again. Hell we might even need to hire some Mexicans legally. Full employment sounds good to me. Think how many auto workers we would put back to work if we no longer imported cars from Japan and Korea. Is it feasible to start a shoe manufacturer here in the US? It sure is, if there are none coming from China. The same goes for furniture and thousands of other items. The question then comes up, wouldn't that drive prices through the roof. Not necessarily. I saw a news bit on a network channel about Nike shoes. The factory was selling a pair of tennis shoes to Nike for $20 and the workers were making approximately $2 for each pair. Nike in turn sells these shoes at the stores for $80 or more. What happened to the good old days when the manufacture sold his product to the store and they marked the price up 100%. If China can produce a pair of tennis shoes for $20 and make a good profit, why in the hell can't an American company make the same shoe for under $40 and sell it for $80 like Nike. But lets be real, there is no way in hell it would cost $40 to manufacture a pair of tennis shoes in this country, unless someone was making them by hand.

The bottom line is, we are not going to become a 3rd world country no matter what happens short of our country being destroyed by war or a natural disaster.

I agree with most of what you say. I also would tell the Japs and Koreans...you don't want us around? Good we're out. Have fun with Kim in North Korea. A lot of Asia is still bitter at the Japs for WW2. At that time Asia cheered on the atomic bombings to end the war. We have kept the peace for Japan since 1945...they better think seriously about whether they want us around or not. They've benefited enormously from their alliance with us.

I agree that we aren't a dumb nation despite the best efforts of our educational system to turn us all into idiots. We could restart manufacturing again in this nation if we would set our mind to it. I remember as a little kid in the late 60's seeing a toy stamped Made in Japan and thinking it was junk. That was less than 40 yrs ago Made in USA still equated with high quality. A national crisis might motivate us into what our ancestors were like.

What makes me nervous is that up until the 1960's about 98% of our national debt was owed to ourselves. Now its less than 50%. If that isn't a loss of soveriegnty I don't know what is :(

Cup-of-Ruin
25th September 2009, 06:15
[QUOTE=valerb@bellsouth.net;71365]How many nations around the world could honor their debt on the spot?

Well quite a few actually.



For that matter how many individuals could honor their debt on the spot?

Probably not many in America, but there are billions in the world who are not in debt.


We are not in this alone,

No but if you compare America's debt to other Nations, the numbers speak for themselves.



most of the world is in just as deep as we are. We may have more debt, but we also have more income. This is not Panama struggling with a massive debt.

Political NewSpeak aside, that's an oxymoron, the reason why America has debt is because their expenditure exceeds their income!


Even if the dollar dropped to zero, we would still be one of the richest countries in the world.

LOL, you idiot.



Keep in mind that a fiat currency is worthless. With the dollar dropping to zero, we no longer owe anything.

Oh like a default you mean, just not pay it back you reckon, well that's one way I guess.



However, assuming that we really have 8,000 tons of Gold, we are the richest nation in the world.

LOL!


I know, it's not really there, so everyone keeps telling me. What if it is? Are we not still in the game. A lot of pissed off countries around the world, but we don't owe them anything.

Yes you do, trillions in fact.



So we do not turn into this overnight 3rd world country so many claim we are destined for. Besides, if they have to save our country one way or another, I seriously doubt that WWIII would be out of the question.

Yea if anybody asks for their stolen resources back you can just bomb 'em, but I guess your already doing that.



These are ruthless people controlling trillions of dollars and they have the most advanced military the world has ever seen and does anyone seriously think they are going to play nice if push comes to shove.

Ahhh, no.


I still like the concept that was mentioned during the Clinton administration. If we get into serious trouble, we just convert all of the outstanding short term federal notes into 30 year notes.

LOL, great idea slick willie!


Of course we might have a problem selling more,

really, do ya think so?


but no one will be able to start a fire sale causing the dollar to collapse. If China has all that money tied up for 30 years, are they going to do anything to cause the dollar to drop and lose the value of their long term investments.

Chinese have stated that they will protect their Dollar debt investment, which translates to the Chinese communists being America's chummiest pals, ironic really, well actually not so ironic when you think abot China and America have a lot in common now.


I also think we should pull manufacturing operations out of China to offset any dollar amount of the reserves that they decrease. Same goes for Japan.

Not a problem, just tear down all the factories in China and Japan and ship them back to America...easy done!


Japan wants the US military out of Japan. I say we should go and sever all military ties with them. We could still have naval bases in South Korea and Taiwan. If they didn't want to co-operate, pull out of our ties with them as well. There is no way in hell all of these countries are going to become one big happy family. The North will invade South Korea and China will finally take back Taiwan. As for Japan, not a lot of love between them and China. I say let them sever all military ties and we should sever all commercial trade. We know how to make things, we did it in the past and we can do it again. Hell we might even need to hire some Mexicans legally. Full employment sounds good to me. Think how many auto workers we would put back to work if we no longer imported cars from Japan and Korea. Is it feasible to start a shoe manufacturer here in the US? It sure is, if there are none coming from China. The same goes for furniture and thousands of other items. The question then comes up, wouldn't that drive prices through the roof. Not necessarily. I saw a news bit on a network channel about Nike shoes. The factory was selling a pair of tennis shoes to Nike for $20 and the workers were making approximately $2 for each pair. Nike in turn sells these shoes at the stores for $80 or more. What happened to the good old days when the manufacture sold his product to the store and they marked the price up 100%. If China can produce a pair of tennis shoes for $20 and make a good profit, why in the hell can't an American company make the same shoe for under $40 and sell it for $80 like Nike. But lets be real, there is no way in hell it would cost $40 to manufacture a pair of tennis shoes in this country, unless someone was making them by hand.

The bottom line is, we are not going to become a 3rd world country no matter what happens short of our country being destroyed by war or a natural disaster.

OK but you didn't answer my question, dosen't matter I already know it.

TheLoneRanger
25th September 2009, 08:10
How many nations around the world could honor their debt on the spot? For that matter how many individuals could honor their debt on the spot?

We are not in this alone, most of the world is in just as deep as we are. We may have more debt, but we also have more income. This is not Panama struggling with a massive debt.

Even if the dollar dropped to zero, we would still be one of the richest countries in the world. Keep in mind that a fiat currency is worthless. With the dollar dropping to zero, we no longer owe anything. However, assuming that we really have 8,000 tons of Gold, we are the richest nation in the world. I know, it's not really there, so everyone keeps telling me. What if it is? Are we not still in the game. A lot of pissed off countries around the world, but we don't owe them anything. So we do not turn into this overnight 3rd world country so many claim we are destined for. Besides, if they have to save our country one way or another, I seriously doubt that WWIII would be out of the question. These are ruthless people controlling trillions of dollars and they have the most advanced military the world has ever seen and does anyone seriously think they are going to play nice if push comes to shove.

I still like the concept that was mentioned during the Clinton administration. If we get into serious trouble, we just convert all of the outstanding short term federal notes into 30 year notes. Of course we might have a problem selling more, but no one will be able to start a fire sale causing the dollar to collapse. If China has all that money tied up for 30 years, are they going to do anything to cause the dollar to drop and lose the value of their long term investments.

I also think we should pull manufacturing operations out of China to offset any dollar amount of the reserves that they decrease. Same goes for Japan. Japan wants the US military out of Japan. I say we should go and sever all military ties with them. We could still have naval bases in South Korea and Taiwan. If they didn't want to co-operate, pull out of our ties with them as well. There is no way in hell all of these countries are going to become one big happy family. The North will invade South Korea and China will finally take back Taiwan. As for Japan, not a lot of love between them and China. I say let them sever all military ties and we should sever all commercial trade. We know how to make things, we did it in the past and we can do it again. Hell we might even need to hire some Mexicans legally. Full employment sounds good to me. Think how many auto workers we would put back to work if we no longer imported cars from Japan and Korea. Is it feasible to start a shoe manufacturer here in the US? It sure is, if there are none coming from China. The same goes for furniture and thousands of other items. The question then comes up, wouldn't that drive prices through the roof. Not necessarily. I saw a news bit on a network channel about Nike shoes. The factory was selling a pair of tennis shoes to Nike for $20 and the workers were making approximately $2 for each pair. Nike in turn sells these shoes at the stores for $80 or more. What happened to the good old days when the manufacture sold his product to the store and they marked the price up 100%. If China can produce a pair of tennis shoes for $20 and make a good profit, why in the hell can't an American company make the same shoe for under $40 and sell it for $80 like Nike. But lets be real, there is no way in hell it would cost $40 to manufacture a pair of tennis shoes in this country, unless someone was making them by hand.

The bottom line is, we are not going to become a 3rd world country no matter what happens short of our country being destroyed by war or a natural disaster.

There are some very rich third world countries... it isn't wealth alone that makes a country third world. Third world status is as much dependant on the quality of the laws as it is the money. Can you count on the laws being fair?, can you count on a fair trial?, will the laws consistantly protect your life and property? Or does the goverment come in and throw their weight arround, change contracts, offer prefered treatment to businesses that offered prefered incentives to the junta in power. Is there social justice or is there a large disparity between rich and poor but softened with bread and circuses and pandering to the mob?..
The US Constitution has a preamble that describes and outlines the reason a Free People allowed a limited Goverment certain specific and limited powers. The Oath of Office for every President, Legislator, Judge, public servant, Soldier, Sailor, Airman, and Marine is to protect and defend and be loyal to the Constitution.. not the goverment, not the people, and not the country.. Just the Constitution. The Rule of Law is what makes a third world country. And the principle of personal soveregnty, freedom of conscience, and limited Constitutional bound goverment is what makes America different.
Necessity has always been the plea and excuse of Tyrants... to the degree we keep the oath, we are special among the nations in my humble opinion. But to the degree we violated that which makes us special, in my humble opinion, makes us very much less than special. And we have never been perfect, but to the degree we have held to our principles we have made ourselves great. Hey, in many ways we are still working on perfection, but lately, over the last few administrations, we seem to have been working harder at violating our own principles and the Constitution than at striving for a more perfect Union.

I don't think there are very many national disasters or wars that could actually destroy the United States of America... certainly none that could as throughly destroy us as abandoning our principles and violating our oath.

The dollar became the reserve currency for the world because it was literally as good as gold. That is no longer true.. we reneged unilaterally out of a declared necessity.. we profited mightly and had economic advantages because of the reserve status of the dollar, and we abused that status and didn't honor all if our responsibilities, we allowed the goverment to act outside of the Constitution in many matters, inculding budgetary.
It's not the dollar going to zero that will make us a third world country, it our commitment to what made us great and our honoring the Oath going to zero that will make us a third world country.

My loyalty is to the Comstitution, not to any party or goverment.. Where the Constitution is honored and adhered to is my Country. I don't side with oathbreakers no matter how necesary they claim thier violations are.. and there is no greatness , not for individuals or for nations without honor. That means you honor your commitments, you pay your debts. you are good to your word, you follow the rule of law.

As to paying up all your debts on demand.. I can do it, and I can do it in either fiat or PM's.. on demand, without having to invoke any counterparty.. I expect my Country to do the same, because that's what is required by law and good goverance. It's not that the "goverment" has lived beyond it's means, it's that goverment has not passed on the full cost to the People.. thats not honest and thats not Constitutional.. If the People had to pay up front and on time the full cost of all the happy horsepuckey that The Goverment says they need.. the Goverment would be smaller and constrained as the Constitution intended and we would not be meddling quite as much in other peoples business. I am not against goverment debt per se, But if the Goverment must run a debt then the American People must be the ones to buy and hold that debt IMHO.. selling US Goverment Debt to foriegn powers, is to my mind, going arround the Constiution and the American peoples rightfull and Creator given rights to define and limit the Goverment that serves us. It is just as wrong to sell our debt to other countries or non citizens as it would be to allow non citizens to vote or for us to try and tax some other countries citzens who have no connection to the US economy.

No.. it is nor wealth that makes a third world country... it is misgoverance.. and I humby submit that we have been poorly served for decades by a goverment that has not accepted it's own limited nature as defined by the Constitution.

JCM6395
25th September 2009, 08:32
I think the wheels began to come off at the end of WW2. The British Empire was on the verge of bankruptcy due to 6 years of war. They were no longer able to police the world. So we picked up the mantle and put garrisons all over the earth. That costs serious cash to do that. Until WW2 we relied on the navy to protect the homeland until the army was built up for war. Afterwards we kept a permanent large standing army. That costs serious cash also. The Korean War followed by Vietnam (against a former ally in WW2) drained our national treasure. Nowadays we stand here on the verge of national bankruptcy scratching our heads and wondering what the hell happened :confused:

Washington and Jefferson preached to avoid permanent alliances because they'll drag you into wars and bankrupt the nation. Kind of prophetic weren't they?

DaBrownsRPhat
25th September 2009, 09:03
Wow, dollar jumps up at the same time silver falls down.

At the same exact time.

ccjoe
25th September 2009, 09:17
Wow, dollar jumps up at the same time silver falls down.

At the same exact time.

What's this thread called? Dollar rising?:)

maplesilverbug
25th September 2009, 10:21
These are ruthless people...

Dude...there are waaaaay more ruthless people in the world than fat, white McMericans!



...they have the most advanced military the world has ever seen...

So....why can't you and your "most advanced military" win against a couple desert Third World rag-tag militias? Your "most advanced military" has been fumbling around in Iraq and Afghanistan for almost a decade now -- how come you haven't beat them yet? Oh right, it's because you have a shitty educational system and you didn't learn that NO modern army has EVER conquered Afghanistan -- EVER!



...and we should sever all commercial trade. We know how to make things, we did it in the past and we can do it again. Hell we might even need to hire some Mexicans legally. Full employment sounds good to me. Think how many auto workers we would put back to work if we no longer imported cars from Japan and Korea. Is it feasible to start a shoe manufacturer here in the US? It sure is, if there are none coming from China. The same goes for furniture and thousands of other items. The question then comes up, wouldn't that drive prices through the roof. Not necessarily. I saw a news bit on a network channel about Nike shoes. The factory was selling a pair of tennis shoes to Nike for $20 and the workers were making approximately $2 for each pair. Nike in turn sells these shoes at the stores for $80 or more. What happened to the good old days when the manufacture sold his product to the store and they marked the price up 100%. If China can produce a pair of tennis shoes for $20 and make a good profit, why in the hell can't an American company make the same shoe for under $40 and sell it for $80 like Nike. But lets be real, there is no way in hell it would cost $40 to manufacture a pair of tennis shoes in this country, unless someone was making them by hand.

Exactly. Think you can turn back the clock on the Western diet of greed, corruption, entitlement, laziness, ect., etc., etc.? Good luck.



The bottom line is, we are not going to become a 3rd world country no matter what happens short of our country being destroyed by war or a natural disaster.

But your country IS being destroyed by war -- it's just on someone else's shores! Those two planes did a lot more than take down a couple tall buildings. And feel free to call Bush a "natural disaster"!

cybermorpheus
25th September 2009, 11:12
What's this thread called? Dollar rising?:)

LOL! Great ccjoe! :p

DaBrownsRPhat
25th September 2009, 11:57
What's this thread called? Dollar rising?:)

Should be manipulation.

Better use those FRN to get some real money while you can because it won't last long.

With the shorts and the G20, I expected the dollar to go up and pm's to go down.

I thought it would happen Tues/Wed but since it waited until Thursday, I think the puppet masters know it won't last long and wanted there manipulation to stick over the weekend.

DaleFromCalgary
25th September 2009, 12:55
I never understood why, during the Panic of 2008 and since, the FRN was considered a safe haven.

I was at my local dealer yesterday to buy my weekly three gold Maple Leafs and for the first time all year there was a lineup. No one buying, just people selling. The dealer had a notice up that anyone wanting to sell scrap jewelry had to leave it due to a backlog at the appraiser. The man in front of me was selling a stack of junk silver coins, about 10 cm high.

Gold price was steady at C$1,146 because the loonie increases with the price of gold. Silver was down slightly to $20.80, so I took a chance and bought a couple of 10-ounce bars.

valerb
25th September 2009, 13:26
[quote]

Political NewSpeak aside, that's an oxymoron, the eason why America has debt is because their expenditure exceeds their income!

We've had debt forever, it's just that corporate greed took a giant leap forward and shipped our manufacturing base to Asia, along with millions for service jobs. Bring them back and your on your way to solving the problem.


Yes you do, trillions in fact.

No you don't! If the dollar is destroyed, your debts become worthless, unless they are based in a different currency.


LOL, great idea slick willie!

That's not my idea, that is what was mentioned back then.

Not a problem, just tear down all the factories in China and Japan and ship them back to America...easy done!

No, No, you don't tear down the factories over there, you just ship the contents back here, we already have the empty factories. If they own the contents, we employ more Americans rebuilding the machines required.


OK but you didn't answer my question, doesn't matter I already know it.

I think I did, it's not the most honorable way to do things, but then ruthless men hardly do the honorable thing. Just don't expect things to unfold as you see them in your limited capacity. The real power players have tricks up their sleeves, that we have never thought of and you can bet they will use every last one of them if they can get away with it. I don't condone the things I wrote about, but they are all potential realities. However I do believe we should bring our manufacturing base and service jobs back home.

valerb
25th September 2009, 13:55
Dude...there are waaaaay more ruthless people in the world than fat, white McMericans!

There sure are, but ruthless thugs are not the brightess people in the world.




So....why can't you and your "most advanced military" win against a couple desert Third World rag-tag militias? Your "most advanced military" has been fumbling around in Iraq and Afghanistan for almost a decade now -- how come you haven't beat them yet? Oh right, it's because you have a shitty educational system and you didn't learn that NO modern army has EVER conquered Afghanistan -- EVER!

No I suspect is has something more to do with this nation building than winning a war and probably things like "OIL". We destroyed Iraqs army in days. That ended the war, we should have just left them alone to piece things back together on their own. You can't win a war against civilians out of uniform and doing sneak attacks.

It's the same thing that will someday happen in this country.

Sooner or later we "will" revert to WWII strategy of carpet bombing entire cities in an effort to force the enemy to submit.




Exactly. Think you can turn back the clock on the Western diet of greed, corruption, entitlement, laziness, ect., etc., etc.? Good luck.

My My, aren't we the lucky ones living it a perfect society governend by honorable men and women in Canada.

Since when is Social Security and Medicare an entitlement program. That's just political propaganda. That money was paid for by hard working American citizens and their employers. The fact that the government has been stealing it from us for decades and has no way of paying in back, it some how got turned into an entitlement program, as if it were a welfare program for deadbeats. It's been out in the open for decades and no one has done a thing about stopping it.


But your country IS being destroyed by war -- it's just on someone else's shores! Those two planes did a lot more than take down a couple tall buildings. And feel free to call Bush a "natural disaster"!


I agree, as I've said before, we should simple do the job and leave. No boots on the ground necessary.

I'm sure your pansy ass government would have run to the UN and protested vigorusly.

valerb
25th September 2009, 13:59
There are some very rich third world countries... it isn't wealth alone that makes a country third world. Third world status is as much dependant on the quality of the laws as it is the money. Can you count on the laws being fair?, can you count on a fair trial?, will the laws consistantly protect your life and property? Or does the goverment come in and throw their weight arround, change contracts, offer prefered treatment to businesses that offered prefered incentives to the junta in power. Is there social justice or is there a large disparity between rich and poor but softened with bread and circuses and pandering to the mob?..
The US Constitution has a preamble that describes and outlines the reason a Free People allowed a limited Goverment certain specific and limited powers. The Oath of Office for every President, Legislator, Judge, public servant, Soldier, Sailor, Airman, and Marine is to protect and defend and be loyal to the Constitution.. not the goverment, not the people, and not the country.. Just the Constitution. The Rule of Law is what makes a third world country. And the principle of personal soveregnty, freedom of conscience, and limited Constitutional bound goverment is what makes America different.
Necessity has always been the plea and excuse of Tyrants... to the degree we keep the oath, we are special among the nations in my humble opinion. But to the degree we violated that which makes us special, in my humble opinion, makes us very much less than special. And we have never been perfect, but to the degree we have held to our principles we have made ourselves great. Hey, in many ways we are still working on perfection, but lately, over the last few administrations, we seem to have been working harder at violating our own principles and the Constitution than at striving for a more perfect Union.

I don't think there are very many national disasters or wars that could actually destroy the United States of America... certainly none that could as throughly destroy us as abandoning our principles and violating our oath.

The dollar became the reserve currency for the world because it was literally as good as gold. That is no longer true.. we reneged unilaterally out of a declared necessity.. we profited mightly and had economic advantages because of the reserve status of the dollar, and we abused that status and didn't honor all if our responsibilities, we allowed the goverment to act outside of the Constitution in many matters, inculding budgetary.
It's not the dollar going to zero that will make us a third world country, it our commitment to what made us great and our honoring the Oath going to zero that will make us a third world country.

My loyalty is to the Comstitution, not to any party or goverment.. Where the Constitution is honored and adhered to is my Country. I don't side with oathbreakers no matter how necesary they claim thier violations are.. and there is no greatness , not for individuals or for nations without honor. That means you honor your commitments, you pay your debts. you are good to your word, you follow the rule of law.

As to paying up all your debts on demand.. I can do it, and I can do it in either fiat or PM's.. on demand, without having to invoke any counterparty.. I expect my Country to do the same, because that's what is required by law and good goverance. It's not that the "goverment" has lived beyond it's means, it's that goverment has not passed on the full cost to the People.. thats not honest and thats not Constitutional.. If the People had to pay up front and on time the full cost of all the happy horsepuckey that The Goverment says they need.. the Goverment would be smaller and constrained as the Constitution intended and we would not be meddling quite as much in other peoples business. I am not against goverment debt per se, But if the Goverment must run a debt then the American People must be the ones to buy and hold that debt IMHO.. selling US Goverment Debt to foriegn powers, is to my mind, going arround the Constiution and the American peoples rightfull and Creator given rights to define and limit the Goverment that serves us. It is just as wrong to sell our debt to other countries or non citizens as it would be to allow non citizens to vote or for us to try and tax some other countries citzens who have no connection to the US economy.

No.. it is nor wealth that makes a third world country... it is misgoverance.. and I humby submit that we have been poorly served for decades by a goverment that has not accepted it's own limited nature as defined by the Constitution.

I can't argue with common sense, but unfortunately common sense doesn't rule the world.

TheLoneRanger
25th September 2009, 14:31
I can't argue with common sense, but unfortunately common sense doesn't rule the world.

Interesting dismisal of my position.. saved you alot of typing.. you could have added a "thank you" for that.

The fact remains, we could become a third world country.. especially if too many take your tack and dismiss common sense.

valerb
25th September 2009, 16:56
Interesting dismisal of my position.. saved you alot of typing.. you could have added a "thank you" for that.

The fact remains, we could become a third world country.. especially if too many take your tack and dismiss common sense.

I can't argue with common sense, but unfortunately common sense doesn't rule the world.

Thank you for that!!!!

maplesilverbug
25th September 2009, 19:28
I agree, as I've said before, we should simple do the job and leave. No boots on the ground necessary.

I'm sure your pansy ass government would have run to the UN and protested vigorusly.

Probably not. Canada isn't hated by 98% of the world so we would have never been attacked in the first place. Our government is interested in building a better society for its people (yeah, I don't want to go down that road either) instead of trying to force the world to do it "our" way.

Being the world's ignorant bully...that's a job for captain mcmerica-mart!


But...we (you and I) agree on war tactics: attack, put 'em down, the end. Then help re-build. It's just messy, messy, messy any other way.

PlataTruth
25th September 2009, 19:36
I never understood why, during the Panic of 2008 and since, the FRN was considered a safe haven.

I was at my local dealer yesterday to buy my weekly three gold Maple Leafs and for the first time all year there was a lineup. No one buying, just people selling. The dealer had a notice up that anyone wanting to sell scrap jewelry had to leave it due to a backlog at the appraiser. The man in front of me was selling a stack of junk silver coins, about 10 cm high.

Gold price was steady at C$1,146 because the loonie increases with the price of gold. Silver was down slightly to $20.80, so I took a chance and bought a couple of 10-ounce bars.

My dealer is saying the same thing, he has never seen it this quiet before for purchases at this level. He hasn't had to order for weeks because more people are selling than buying. Strange times

Katwoman
25th September 2009, 20:16
Now that the G-20 gab fest is over the dollar is already starting to head back down. I seriously doubt it will rally on Monday either especially after Obama's narcissistic comments this afternoon. This mess is not over by any seriously logic based economic measure and despite what the talking heads are saying everyone knows there will be more mortgage failures, more bank failures, more QEing by Bernanke and friends, and more job losses between now and New Years. By Christmas everyone will know that Obama is not the Messiah or Santa for that matter and the USD will be so far in the toilet it will literally take Roto Rooter to dig it out. Stack up while you can because this train won't be hanging around the station for long.

DaBrownsRPhat
26th September 2009, 02:29
Now that the G-20 gab fest is over the dollar is already starting to head back down. I seriously doubt it will rally on Monday either especially after Obama's narcissistic comments this afternoon. This mess is not over by any seriously logic based economic measure and despite what the talking heads are saying everyone knows there will be more mortgage failures, more bank failures, more QEing by Bernanke and friends, and more job losses between now and New Years. By Christmas everyone will know that Obama is not the Messiah or Santa for that matter and the USD will be so far in the toilet it will literally take Roto Rooter to dig it out. Stack up while you can because this train won't be hanging around the station for long.

Yeah, we know what is coming down this road we are being dragged down. I think it may hit $14-$15 before it makes a run at $20. It is hard to tell though with so many big influences, mainly the Chinese trump card.

It will be interesting to see how both PM's and the dollar does on Monday, but isn't it like that everyday? ;)

Katwoman
26th September 2009, 04:28
Gretta Van Susteren was talking about hyperinflation with her guest last night who said he did not think we would see it because Ben the Magic Fed Chair won't let it happen. The conversation then turned to the dollar index which they agreed indicated inflation was nevertheless coming "soon". This is the first time I have heard this kind of talk on a major news channel and I think it is very telling of what is to come over the next few months.

Cup-of-Ruin
26th September 2009, 05:26
We have had inflation since the Fed opened it's doors to suck in the wealth of the world, why are people wondering whether inflation is coming or not, we live everyday in an infationary world, that is not going to change, when the money supply has just been doubled or tripled by the same Fed banksters you can be sure as sure as night follows day that the costs of living are going to go up.

MikeF
26th September 2009, 07:46
I never understood why, during the Panic of 2008 and since, the FRN was considered a safe haven.

With so much world trade being denominated in USD (FRN) and the general tightening of credit issuance, and given the USD's still-substantial reserve currency status, this was a logical short-term result.

MikeF
26th September 2009, 07:54
Probably not. Canada isn't hated by 98% of the world so we would have never been attacked in the first place. Our government is interested in building a better society for its people

You can't seriously believe that.


Being the world's ignorant bully...that's a job for captain mcmerica-mart!

*Sigh* Unfortunately, yes, as no one else has been really up to the task - as directed by our client state on the sun-kissed shores of the eastern Mediterranean, of course.


But...we (you and I) agree on war tactics: attack, put 'em down, the end. Then help re-build. It's just messy, messy, messy any other way.

Yeah, uh-huh. Unfortunately, it's usually messy in any circumstance.

DaleFromCalgary
26th September 2009, 08:58
I suggest that rather than a dollar crash (unless the Chinese suddenly dump their holdings, which I doubt), we would see a slow ratcheting downward, much like the economy as Peak Oil takes hold.

maplesilverbug
26th September 2009, 10:17
"Our government is interested in building a better society for its people"


You can't seriously believe that.


As I stated in my original post:
"Our government is interested in building a better society for its people (yeah, I don't want to go down that road either)"

Look at the state of mcmerica-mart. Look at the state of canukville. Yes, I do believe that Canadians on a whole try to create a better society for the people instead of just trying to get more than their neighbour any way they can. What I don't believe is that the government has any hand in this endeavour.

Remember, I work for the government (on contract). I see the egotistical, self-righteous, excessive behaviour of politicians, and the sluggish, dead-eyed, pathetic behaviour of bureaucrats 5-days a week. Those two groups are interested in doing either as little as possible until their pension kicks in, or chasing a higher degree of office, wage, and perks. I entertain my own brand of protest within the walls of the government.

The nature of a politician is that of seeking, attaining, and defending power. However, because of the nature of Canada, our politicians are focused on trying to achieve different ends -- such as maintaining a functional society instead of letting their banker buddies rape the People or running all over the world blowing **** up in the name of Old Yeller...I mean, Glory. Doesn't mean Canadian government is any good at its job though. Not sure any government is as long as it's filled with politicians.

PlataTruth
26th September 2009, 13:34
"Our government is interested in building a better society for its people"




As I stated in my original post:
"Our government is interested in building a better society for its people (yeah, I don't want to go down that road either)"

Look at the state of mcmerica-mart. Look at the state of canukville. Yes, I do believe that Canadians on a whole try to create a better society for the people instead of just trying to get more than their neighbour any way they can. What I don't believe is that the government has any hand in this endeavour.

Remember, I work for the government (on contract). I see the egotistical, self-righteous, excessive behaviour of politicians, and the sluggish, dead-eyed, pathetic behaviour of bureaucrats 5-days a week. Those two groups are interested in doing either as little as possible until their pension kicks in, or chasing a higher degree of office, wage, and perks. I entertain my own brand of protest within the walls of the government.

The nature of a politician is that of seeking, attaining, and defending power. However, because of the nature of Canada, our politicians are focused on trying to achieve different ends -- such as maintaining a functional society instead of letting their banker buddies rape the People or running all over the world blowing **** up in the name of Old Yeller...I mean, Glory. Doesn't mean Canadian government is any good at its job though. Not sure any government is as long as it's filled with politicians.

Wow that almost scares me Maple, I actually agree with you. The politicians deserve your callousness, your fellow SSF members do not.

maplesilverbug
26th September 2009, 13:41
Wow that almost scares me Maple, I actually agree with you. The politicians deserve your callousness, your fellow SSF members do not.

ALL ignorant, illogical, factless, non-reasoning behaviour deserves something.

PlataTruth
26th September 2009, 14:03
ALL ignorant, illogical, factless, non-reasoning behaviour deserves something.

Generally that something is my back but your way can be fun as well. But after a while they both get old.

maplesilverbug
26th September 2009, 14:15
Generally that something is my back but your way can be fun as well. But after a while they both get old.

Don't we all.

GO SILVER!

goldsilber
4th October 2009, 08:28
How many nations around the world could honor their debt on the spot? For that matter how many individuals could honor their debt on the spot?

We are not in this alone, most of the world is in just as deep as we are. We may have more debt, but we also have more income. This is not Panama struggling with a massive debt.

national debt per habitant 2006
usa 29,000 $
panama 3,600 $
http://www.welt-in-zahlen.de/laendervergleich.phtml?indicator=78


National debt as % of GDP

Japan 214,3
Italien 118,4
USA 88,4
Indien 85,2
Frankreich 82,6
Kanada 81,3
GB 80,7
Argentinien 79,7
Deutschland 79,2
Brasilien 69,4
Türkei 48,3
Südkorea 41,3
Mexiko 38,7
Südafrika 33,1
Indonesien 30,0
China 25,8
Australien 21,2
Russland 12,8
Saudi-Arabien 7,9
Source. Fitch Ratings, Bloomberg

http://www.welt.de/finanzen/article4614619/So-gefaehrlich-sind-die-Schulden-der-G-20-fuer-Sparer.html

... I couldn't find Panama, but I don't think it lies over USA.

goldsilber
4th October 2009, 08:32
What makes me nervous is that up until the 1960's about 98% of our national debt was owed to ourselves. Now its less than 50%. If that isn't a loss of soveriegnty I don't know what is :(

Indeed. One focus always on the amount of the national debt, but it is very unusual for the analysts to refer to the identity of the debtees.

DaleFromCalgary
4th October 2009, 08:50
Bearing in mind also, that national debts are never fully paid off. If inflation runs high, then the percentage drops and it looks good. When a country owes most of its money to itself, this is easy enough to do. The problem arises when a country owes money to foreign creditors, who will not take it lightly if the debt is inflated away.

I am reminded of the running joke in the Austin Powers movies where the 1960s villain demands $1,000,000 ransom in the 1990s and can't understand why people laugh at him.