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prahudka
2nd April 2008, 11:57
Thoughts for stock and PM markets?

The depression of the thirties happened overy many months.

There was lots of optimism along the way.

There was obviously lots of government intervention -- look at what FDR did with gold. Morgan bank and others plowed money into the market to buoy stocks.

But, I am not sure anyone has seen what the Fed is now proposing to do to keep this market going. I am not even sure what the Fed is really doing.

The optimism many have for the stock market again seems like investing in the shares of Russian Communist state enterprise. Maybe that is the best bet around.

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 12:15
Currantly the Dow is at 12,676.34. It just took a huge jump, apparently because the talking heads have convinced people that all the trouble is behind us now.

I'm sure glad I'm not invested in the stock market because when it heads south again, that looks like a mighty big bubble getting ready to burst.

If history repeats itself I think a whole lot of folks are in trouble. Too bad they don't actually READ history, huh?

prahudka
2nd April 2008, 12:22
Currantly the Dow is at 12,676.34. It just took a huge jump, apparently because the talking heads have convinced people that all the trouble is behind us now.

I'm sure glad I'm not invested in the stock market because when it heads south again, that looks like a mighty big bubble getting ready to burst.

If history repeats itself I think a whole lot of folks are in trouble. Too bad they don't actually READ history, huh?

Isn't the question whether the government can in fact prop up the values of stocks on a long term basis? And if it can, then relative to what? What other investments are there? Chinese stock? Indian? What happens if you have a coordinated centrally planned economy? Has that ever been tried?

In the short term, you do have some gradual adjustment as our competitors back away, but do so cautiously. The Muslims sell oil in rubles, the Chinese reduce dollar reserves or whatever they do. There is some level of coordination. Biblically, obviously we become concerned about true world-wide central planning. But, other than Christians and guys like Alex Jones, this doesn't get alot of attention. But, how much coordination is there?

So, when I read about all these technical charts and metals consolidating at such and such a price, aren't they presuming a real marketplace and not rampant manipulation.

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 12:44
I see your point, but you've got to remember that people make money off stocks no matter which way they go. Today Americans invest in stocks hoping they will go up and that hope is reflected in all the money invested in various 401Ks and IRAs as well. Those plans are not "paper trading" plans, they are the buy and hold plans that most managed retirement accounts deal in.

Historically however, if you want to "fleece the sheep" so to speak and further consolidate the nation's wealth in the hands of a the very few, that is done when markets take a big nose dive. As an example...

"Sell all of your stock now. Don't ask any questions." - Joseph P. Kennedy to his friend, (father of Ed Kerrigan,) in 1929, right before the crash. During the Great Depression, Joseph P. Kennedy's worth grew from four million dollars in 1929 to over 100 million dollars in 1935. Apparently he had insider information and knew what the Federal Reserve bankers intended to do. And for that kind of money to be made in a mere six years, it stands to reason Joe Kennedy decided to short the market. He sure made a lot of money, didn't he?

prahudka
2nd April 2008, 13:08
[QUOTE]I see your point, but you've got to remember that people make money off stocks no matter which way they go. Today Americans invest in stocks hoping they will go up and that hope is reflected in all the money invested in various 401Ks and IRAs as well. Those plans are not "paper trading" plans, they are the buy and hold plans that most managed retirement accounts deal in.

The other thing that is not a paper deal is rice. People are rioting for rice. Planned markets always lead to those types of problems. Maybe the silver shortage is a pale shadow of that kind of disconnect in markets.


Historically however, if you want to "fleece the sheep" so to speak and further consolidate the nation's wealth in the hands of a the very few, that is done when markets take a big nose dive. As an example...

"Sell all of your stock now. Don't ask any questions." - Joseph P. Kennedy to his friend, (father of Ed Kerrigan,) in 1929, right before the crash. During the Great Depression, Joseph P. Kennedy's worth grew from four million dollars in 1929 to over 100 million dollars in 1935. Apparently he had insider information and knew what the Federal Reserve bankers intended to do. And for that kind of money to be made in a mere six years, it stands to reason Joe Kennedy decided to short the market. He sure made a lot of money, didn't he?

I am looking for the next big buy by the guys in the know. Eg, the Fed acquiring US property by buying all these mortgages.

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 13:26
the Fed acquiring US property by buying all these mortgages.


Exactly! We hear about all the homeowners getting foreclosed on, but don't kid yourself. Small farmers all over this country are going broke right now. They can't compete against the huge corporate run farms, and they've not only got land payments to make, they've got huge mortgages on all the equipment they had to borrow money for too, and I can promise you, absolutely none of that equipment is fuel efficient.

For years now, I have been watching the wealthy few buy up every damn acre of farmland they can get their hands on in America. They are doing the same thing in India, South America and Mexico too. Ultimately all the land that grows the food is going to be held by the same wealthy few that now controls the oil, insurance, banking and pharmecuetical industries.

And when they own ALL the farmland, they have all the control. Believe me, the populace WILL do what they are told to do, because if they don't they won't eat.

"Food is power. You can use it to control nations." - Henry Kissinger

JaySpizzy
2nd April 2008, 14:05
the Fed acquiring US property by buying all these mortgages.

This asks the question, how intentional was this whole subprime mortgage thing? Remember the Eliot Spitzer prostitute scandal last month? Well, his exposure came three weeks after he published this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Interesting, no? He had been trying to nail the banks for offering predatory loans to innocent people. Someone really wanted him to disappear, and he's probably lucky to have escaped with his life.

To me, this shows an intention to harm innocent people by indebting them and taking away their property.

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 14:35
Ohmygod! JaySpIzzy, you are absolutely correct!

They nailed him! Spitzer was going after the banks and they destroyed him for it! It's not like half of Washington DC doesn't use high class call girls all the time. They could probably nail just about anybody on that one. But they used it to go after Spitzer because he was trying to nail the banks.

Amazing...

You have just prooven what I've been trying to tell people. You either play the game the Fed tells you to play, or the banking cartel will destroy you.

Those of us who sit at home watching a "do nothing" congress do nothing that helps anybody needs to understand what is going on. If you get to DC or on the governor's board, you either play the game the banks want you to, or, obviously, your political career is over.

No wonder everybody who is anybody belongs to the CFR. That's like saying, "We be dancin' to your banker's tune. Don't come after us!"

beach miner
2nd April 2008, 14:45
Howdy: I figured that ebay would be a good indicator of how the Real Market is responding to Silver.
March 31: 10:00 A.M. Pacific Time----38 100oz. bars for sale.
April 1: " 36 "
April 2: " 19 "
I'll try to keep this updated as time goes by. Beach Miner

FedFixNix
2nd April 2008, 15:18
Thoughts for stock and PM markets?

The depression of the thirties happened overy many months.

There was lots of optimism along the way.

There was obviously lots of government intervention -- look at what FDR did with gold. Morgan bank and others plowed money into the market to buoy stocks.

But, I am not sure anyone has seen what the Fed is now proposing to do to keep this market going. I am not even sure what the Fed is really doing.

The optimism many have for the stock market again seems like investing in the shares of Russian Communist state enterprise. Maybe that is the best bet around.

You mean you can actually invest in shares of the Russian State Enterprises? Where? ;)

Where can I invest in the Fed or any of the central Banks? Don't bother looking for the answer, because you can't, at least not in any direct way. The big investment banker like Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Lehman, BS, have serious problems with the mortage crash and dollar devaluations, but they will survive. The Fed and central banks will see to that. There is an endless supply of taxpayer money that is being, and will be, used to bail them out. The doublespeak they uses is "injecting liquidity", but its just using taxpayer money to keep them from going bankrupt.

Don't you wish YOU had an endless money machine like that? :(

See the Doublespeak 101 thread for lotsa good info, if you have a strong stomach for the truth.

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 15:18
Ohmygod! JaySpIzzy, you are absolutely correct!

They nailed him! Spitzer was going after the banks and they destroyed him for it! It's not like half of Washington DC doesn't use high class call girls all the time. They could probably nail just about anybody on that one. But they used it to go after Spitzer because he was trying to nail the banks.

Amazing...

You have just prooven what I've been trying to tell people. You either play the game the Fed tells you to play, or the banking cartel will destroy you.

Those of us who sit at home watching a "do nothing" congress do nothing that helps anybody needs to understand what is going on. If you get to DC or on the governor's board, you either play the game the banks want you to, or, obviously, your political career is over.

No wonder everybody who is anybody belongs to the CFR. That's like saying, "We be dancin' to your banker's tune. Don't come after us!"

I am new to this forum and a little shocked at a lot of threads talking about Conspiracies. The simple fact with Spitzer is he did something illegal and got busted, no conspiracy behind it.

prahudka
2nd April 2008, 15:31
I am new to this forum and a little shocked at a lot of threads talking about Conspiracies. The simple fact with Spitzer is he did something illegal and got busted, no conspiracy behind it.

No one is betting the ranch on a conspiracy.

Yes, the talk is a bit loose on Spitzer.

It is ok to think out loud.

prahudka
2nd April 2008, 15:33
Exactly! We hear about all the homeowners getting foreclosed on, but don't kid yourself. Small farmers all over this country are going broke right now. They can't compete against the huge corporate run farms, and they've not only got land payments to make, they've got huge mortgages on all the equipment they had to borrow money for too, and I can promise you, absolutely none of that equipment is fuel efficient.

For years now, I have been watching the wealthy few buy up every damn acre of farmland they can get their hands on in America. They are doing the same thing in India, South America and Mexico too. Ultimately all the land that grows the food is going to be held by the same wealthy few that now controls the oil, insurance, banking and pharmecuetical industries.

And when they own ALL the farmland, they have all the control. Believe me, the populace WILL do what they are told to do, because if they don't they won't eat.

"Food is power. You can use it to control nations." - Henry Kissinger

On a Chuck Missler discussion on strategic perspectives. He mentions the recent comments of a high Chinese official. What did he see as the future of America? Agriculture. http://khouse.org/6640/BP121-02/

Does that prove a conspiracy? Not at all. No more than the Spitzer theory. (But, it is worth noting that Spitzer did tilt with some real bigs who need real big dough right now to keep the machine running. It is a coincidence worth noting.)

FedFixNix
2nd April 2008, 15:48
Ohmygod! JaySpIzzy, you are absolutely correct!

They nailed him! Spitzer was going after the banks and they destroyed him for it! It's not like half of Washington DC doesn't use high class call girls all the time. They could probably nail just about anybody on that one. But they used it to go after Spitzer because he was trying to nail the banks.

Amazing...

You have just prooven what I've been trying to tell people. You either play the game the Fed tells you to play, or the banking cartel will destroy you.

Those of us who sit at home watching a "do nothing" congress do nothing that helps anybody needs to understand what is going on. If you get to DC or on the governor's board, you either play the game the banks want you to, or, obviously, your political career is over.

No wonder everybody who is anybody belongs to the CFR. That's like saying, "We be dancin' to your banker's tune. Don't come after us!"

I've posted this story about Spitzer some time ago. But there are so many other stories like this, most of which never come to light.

See, this is the way the financial powers that be get senators, congressmen, judges, regulators and anyone else they need to "influence" to play ball. Remember that huge yacht party in Florida that stung so many government officials, and big shots?

They throw lavish parties or give away great trips, and arrange to have whatever "pleasures" their target prefers waiting for them... girls... boys... gambling... drugs... sex... investments... money... whatever. (They are good at finding "weakness of character") Then they video the action, and use the cd or video for "persuasion" purposes when needed. It's simple blackmail, and its been done for centuries, especially in power circles.

It's one of the main reasons "promising" young men or women (mostly men) get "tapped" or invited to join secret societies and clubs. There they go though a long process of both indoctrination and exposure of their likes, dislikes, weaknesses, or "tastes" for various things, and its all recorded in files, for later use.

There are heavy prices to pay for climbing up the ladder of power. Some drop out, or discover what's really going on, and stop playing with them, but most are ensnared.

Skull and Bones is like this, as are the Masons, just to name two, but there are literally hundreds of secret societies that channel of funnel the "right" people up the ladder of power and success.

It is hardly and accident that most US presidents have been Freemasons, Bonesmen, or involved in some other secret societies. It's hard to find CIA big shots that weren't Yale Bonesmen, or have family ties to Ivy League "channels" of secret societies.

This may sound like fiction, but everything I'm saying has been thoroughly researched over many many years. Anyone can take the time to learn the same.

“The Federal Reserve (Bank) is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this Nation is run by the International Bankers.” ― Congressman Louis T. McFadden

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 15:55
I am curious to know what you folks think qualifies as "conspiracy."

Spitzer DID write an article attmepting to get help for homeowners and stop the unfair lending practices of the banks by calling for new regulations just a few days before he was publically humiliated by "unknown informants" and his political career effectively destroyed. That doesn't mean that what Spitzer did with the call girls was okay, but that kind of thing goes on all the time and is a very common practice. Politicians typically look the other way when it comes to somebody messing around with high end call girls. So how come all the other folks guilty of doing the same thing DIDN'T get their political careers destroyed, but the one guy who tried to help the homeowner by regulating the banks "just happened" to get nailed?

I fail to see why anybody who still thinks 1 + 1 = 2 is immediately nailed as a "conspiracy theorist." Is it a "conspiracy" to point out the truth?

I agree with FedFixNix here. When Hoover ran the FBI for instance, he was famous for collecting blackmail material on everybody of importance. Somebody in DC keeps a file on everybody, of that I am sure. If they step out of line, every skeliton in the closet is brought out and aired.

I am certain that everyone alive has some sort of dirty laundry they prefer to keep to themselves. The difference is, if you are a politician, rather than one of the "nobodies" that most of us are, that dirty laundry can be used to manipulate people into playing their game, and if you don't play that game, you get destroyed.

In the old 1+1=2 theory, I believe that concept is called "blackmail."

FedFixNix
2nd April 2008, 16:01
I am new to this forum and a little shocked at a lot of threads talking about Conspiracies. The simple fact with Spitzer is he did something illegal and got busted, no conspiracy behind it.

Yes, he did something illegal. No one denies that fact.

He got busted. No one denies that fact, although I'd like to know more about the circumstances about how he got involved with this high class prostitute.

But it is also a fact that he had been investigating some extremely wealthy and powerful people for serious crimes.

Your summation that there was no conspiracy behind it is unfounded. We simply do not yet know that, one way or the other.

Einstein said, "It is desirable to make things as simple as possible, but no simpler.

"I am myself persuaded, on the basis of extensive study of the historical evidence, that... the severity of each of the contractions - 1920-21, 1929-33, and 1937-38 - is directly attributable to acts of commission and omission by the Reserve authorities and would not have occurred under earlier monetary and banking arrangements.''

--- Milton Freidman 1912-2006) Nobel Prize-winning economist, economic advisor to President Ronald Reagan, "ultimate guru of the free-market system" 'Capitalism and Freedom'

prahudka
2nd April 2008, 16:12
They throw lavish parties or give away great trips, and arrange to have whatever "pleasures" their target prefers waiting for them... girls... boys... gambling... drugs... sex... investments... money... whatever. (They are good at finding "weakness of character") Then they video the action, and use the cd or video for "persuasion" purposes when needed. It's simple blackmail, and its been done for centuries, especially in power circles.

It's one of the main reasons "promising" young men or women (mostly men) get "tapped" or invited to join secret societies and clubs. There they go though a long process of both indoctrination and exposure of their likes, dislikes, weaknesses, or "tastes" for various things, and its all recorded in files, for later use.

On some Pinko, pseudo-Commie public radio station, I heard an interview with some undercover drug guy about a plan full of dope in that managed to get off the runway, notwithstanding the las drogas having been wised to the guys and firing automatic weapons. The plane limps north to where it finds a runway and lands on a CIA forward emplacement tied up in the Contra war. Honduras or Guetemala was the base from which to attack El Salvador, and do a number of other things commercially speaking, some of which seemed to originate in Meena, Arkansas before King Bill's coronation. Well, the dope "disappeared" and the agents did escape with their lives. Allegedly, this deal was being outed or about to be outed through the office of none other than .....

Lets see if you can guess. Think attractive young lady. Famous in part below the belt line for her derriere as spokesperson for a new line of designer Jeans. What were the jeans (extra points)?

"No Excuses" Jeans.

Who was the girl?

Donna Rice.

Who was the pol?

Gary Hart.

Where did they get him?

On a boat in the embrace of Ms. Rice.

What happened to the story?

Not bloody much.

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 16:13
[QUOTE=Kelly;2954]I am curious to know what you folks think qualifies as "conspiracy."

Spitzer DID write an article attmepting to get help for homeowners and stop the unfair lending practices of the banks by calling for new regulations just a few days before he was publically humiliated by "unknown informants" and his political career effectively destroyed. That doesn't mean that what Spitzer did with the call girls was okay, but that kind of thing goes on all the time and is a very common practice. Politicians typically look the other way when it comes to somebody messing around with high end call girls. So how come all the other folks guilty of doing the same thing DIDN'T get their political careers destroyed, but the one guy who tried to help the homeowner by regulating the banks "just happened" to get nailed?

I fail to see why anybody who still thinks 1 + 1 = 2 is immediately nailed as a "conspiracy theorist." Is it a "conspiracy" to point out the truth?

I dont believe pointing out the truth is "conspiracy". However when truth is tied with someones paticular logic it becomes something other then "truth".

When you say it's "common practice" for politicians to hire hookers to me ties in someone's thoughts vs fact. If you had proof of this being a common practice so would many others and those politicians would no longer be in office.

There have been multiple "high up" officals bringing to light the shady practices of banks and lenders and calling for reform and investigation.

1+1 does =2 and being a govenment official getting busted paying for a high priced hooker will get you fired or forced to resign every time, once caught that is :)

FedFixNix
2nd April 2008, 16:26
I am curious to know what you folks think qualifies as "conspiracy."

Well I know the dictionary definitions include "planning or plotting with others to do something illegal". I accept that as the classic definition.

However, when the conspirators are also the ones who make the laws, then perhaps it is useful to broaden the term to include immoral, unethical, or other acts that might cause surreptitious damage or harm to other individuals, groups or societies.

Is plotting to overthrow a government a conspiracy? Sure its illegal as long as the old government is in power, but is becomes "legal" as soon as a new government is established. Funny how that works, isn't it?

The USA was created by a "conspiracy". The signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged if caught by the British, and every signer knew it. Ben Franklin said "We'd better hang together, or we'll all hang separately". Fact... although the quote is from memory, and may not be word for word.

Conspiracies have been a reality that has affected most of the major social and political events in the history of mankind.

This modern tendency to dismiss "conspiracies" is perpetuated by conspirators in high places, IMO. It is another way of discounting or dismissing inconvenient truths for powerful interests. Some would be amazed at how many realities were branded as "crazy conspiracies"
before they were proved to be true. The Mafia is one example offhand.

MoneyMasters: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

Money as Debt: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Web of Debt: http://www.amazon.com/review/product/0979560810/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

The Lost Science of Money - Mythology & Power:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1930748035/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Video: America: Freedom to Fascism :
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1930748035/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Carrol Quigley - Tragedy and Hope:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/094500110X/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

About Quigley:
http://www.seanet.com/~barkonwd/quigley.htm

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 16:28
There have been multiple "high up" officals bringing to light the shady practices of banks and lenders and calling for reform and investigation.

And have you actully LOOKED at the so called "reforms" they are calling for?

Maybe you should because if those reforms go through, they give the Federal Reserve Bank TOTAL control over everything financial. And that's probably NOT going to be an endgame you particularly like the outcome of.

Did Gary Hart get busted and labeled a "cheater" for kissing a woman on a boat? He's married. The press could have raked him over the coals for it, but they didn't. They pick and choose who they destroy, and they destroy those who do not buy into the game plan.

And by the way, I suggest you read up on the "new regulations" as well as learn something about the history of the Fed. You just might change your mind about things...

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 16:42
When you say it's "common practice" for politicians to hire hookers to me ties in someone's thoughts vs fact. If you had proof of this being a common practice so would many others and those politicians would no longer be in office.


And do you also quote Proverbs, written by a man with 542 "concubines" who believed in beating his children?

IF I am stating only "thoughts vs. fact" then it seems to me all hookers and high end call girls would be out of a job. And the fact is, they aren't. Those girls are still working. Now just whom do you think is hiring high end "escorts" to attend political functions and parties?

Are you under the illusion that Washington DC doesn't have high end excort services? Hmmmm. It must be all those poor black folks living in the ghettos of DC that hires those girls, huh? Our politicians would NEVER do that!

Yeah. Right....

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 16:52
And have you actully LOOKED at the so called "reforms" they are calling for?

Maybe you should because if those reforms go through, they give the Federal Reserve Bank TOTAL control over everything financial. And that's probably NOT going to be an endgame you particularly like the outcome of.

Did Gary Hart get busted and labeled a "cheater" for kissing a woman on a boat? He's married. The press could have raked him over the coals for it, but they didn't. They pick and choose who they destroy, and they destroy those who do not buy into the game plan.

And by the way, I suggest you read up on the "new regulations" as well as learn something about the history of the Fed. You just might change your mind about things...

Hmmm, did I indicate I agreed with what they wanted to do?? All I stated is that "others" demanded change and wanted investigations to happen.

Currently there is a lot of opposition to what you are speaking of and I doubt it will happen, I do read up!!!

Give me a break on the Gary Hart thing, he did get raked over the coals and droped our of the nomination for president 2 times......he didnt get "busted" becasue he didnt hire a hooker, it was a fling/affair. I SUGGEST YOU READ UP ON HOW THIS IMPACTED HIS CAREER.

I have read up on a lot, prob not as much as some on this forum however I believe you should learn the past, not live in it, some things do change.....

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 17:08
And do you also quote Proverbs, written by a man with 542 "concubines" who believed in beating his children?

IF I am stating only "thoughts vs. fact" then it seems to me all hookers and high end call girls would be out of a job. And the fact is, they aren't. Those girls are still working. Now just whom do you think is hiring high end "escorts" to attend political functions and parties?

Are you under the illusion that Washington DC doesn't have high end excort services? Hmmmm. It must be all those poor black folks living in the ghettos of DC that hires those girls, huh? Our politicians would NEVER do that!

Yeah. Right....

Again different points of view / truths. Yes we have a lot of "high priced hookers and call girls" part of the reason is becasue it is LEGAL in some states (would he still have his job had he not broken the law and just cheated on his wife???)
Having escorts at parties does not indicate someone broke the law, did they break the law at those parties, I dont know I wasnt there were you?? Maybe they just had private lap dances, or pole dancing, who knows. But thats my answer to why their still around, never said politicians dont have great fun at parties :) Just wondering how your matching a legal right to hire escorts for parties to breaking the law.

AGAIN Spitzer did not just cheat on his wife, he broke the law!!

We having fun yet?? Not sure how I ruffled your feathers but YES I DISAGREE WITH SOME OF YOUR REASONING :)

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 17:09
Lets see if you can guess. Think attractive young lady. Famous in part below the belt line for her derriere as spokesperson for a new line of designer Jeans. What were the jeans (extra points)?

"No Excuses" Jeans.

Who was the girl?

Donna Rice.

Who was the pol?

Gary Hart.

Where did they get him?

On a boat in the embrace of Ms. Rice.

What happened to the story?

Not bloody much.


Whether it is Hart or Spitzer, today or 3000 years ago, prominent and powerful men have been cheating on their wives and purchasing the services of prostitutes. Actully, there are some things that NEVER change. And it is doubtful if they ever will. I prefer to be somewhat of a realist about it.

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 17:21
Whether it is Hart or Spitzer, today or 3000 years ago, prominent and powerful men have been cheating on their wives and purchasing the services of prostitutes. Actully, there are some things that NEVER change. And it is doubtful if they ever will. I prefer to be somewhat of a realist about it.

Actions may never change however peoples thoughts of those actions do and always will change through time......

and Hart and Spitzer are not comparable again as one was a womanizer and one broke the law........

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 17:36
Spitzer was crucified for breaking a law, yet had he not been crucified, he might have been instramental in CHANGING LAWS that are crucifying and financially BURYING millions of homeowners in this country.

Which is more important? Crucifying Spitzer or saving millions of homeowners?

I like to think in terms of priorities, myself.

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 17:48
Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime

How the Bush Administration Stopped the States From Stepping In to Help Consumers


By Eliot Spitzer
Thursday, February 14, 2008; Page A25

Several years ago, state attorneys general and others involved in consumer protection began to notice a marked increase in a range of predatory lending practices by mortgage lenders. Some were misrepresenting the terms of loans, making loans without regard to consumers' ability to repay, making loans with deceptive "teaser" rates that later ballooned astronomically, packing loans with undisclosed charges and fees, or even paying illegal kickbacks. These and other practices, we noticed, were having a devastating effect on home buyers. In addition, the widespread nature of these practices, if left unchecked, threatened our financial markets.
Even though predatory lending was becoming a national problem, the Bush administration looked the other way and did nothing to protect American homeowners. In fact, the government chose instead to align itself with the banks that were victimizing consumers.

Predatory lending was widely understood to present a looming national crisis. This threat was so clear that as New York attorney general, I joined with colleagues in the other 49 states in attempting to fill the void left by the federal government. Individually, and together, state attorneys general of both parties brought litigation or entered into settlements with many subprime lenders that were engaged in predatory lending practices. Several state legislatures, including New York's, enacted laws aimed at curbing such practices.

What did the Bush administration do in response? Did it reverse course and decide to take action to halt this burgeoning scourge? As Americans are now painfully aware, with hundreds of thousands of homeowners facing foreclosure and our markets reeling, the answer is a resounding no.

Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.

Let me explain: The administration accomplished this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation.

Throughout our battles with the OCC and the banks, the mantra of the banks and their defenders was that efforts to curb predatory lending would deny access to credit to the very consumers the states were trying to protect. But the curbs we sought on predatory and unfair lending would have in no way jeopardized access to the legitimate credit market for appropriately priced loans. Instead, they would have stopped the scourge of predatory lending practices that have resulted in countless thousands of consumers losing their homes and put our economy in a precarious position.

When history tells the story of the subprime lending crisis and recounts its devastating effects on the lives of so many innocent homeowners, the Bush administration will not be judged favorably. The tale is still unfolding, but when the dust settles, it will be judged as a willing accomplice to the lenders who went to any lengths in their quest for profits. So willing, in fact, that it used the power of the federal government in an unprecedented assault on state legislatures, as well as on state attorneys general and anyone else on the side of consumers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 17:59
Spitzer was crucified for breaking a law, yet had he not been crucified, he might have been instramental in CHANGING LAWS that are crucifying and financially BURYING millions of homeowners in this country.

Which is more important? Crucifying Spitzer or saving millions of homeowners?

I like to think in terms of priorities myself.


:rolleyes: The info he published, ALONG with everyone else who agreed that things needed to change to help homeowners/economy is and was out for all to see at the time of him being "crucified". We have hundreds of people who will be pushing and affecting change for the "poor" homeowners.....

I don’t think the government should bail out the majority of these people, some yes, maybe 10-20% however the other 80% should lose their homes!!

ANY money spent to help these homeowners should go to something else....
These people can read, they understand what "bills" are and what they can and cannot afford. These "poor" homeowners to a risk thinking the market would continue to go up and bought homes outside their means, they thought "hey this house will be worth 20k more in 1-2 years and I can just refi at a better rate" well guess what, that didnt happen. They agreed on whatever crazy interest rate was set for them and RAN to sign on the bottom line!!!!

Yes lots of shady lending happened, but who's at fault in the end, the people who loan the money or the people who sign the contract and take the money??

Since when do we bail out people who bite off more then they can chew??

Where is the reform for all the 18 year olds that get their first credit card and max it our and get late charges because they couldn’t afford to pay for everything they spent?? Where is the reform for all the people who bought cars at very high interest rates and finally ended up having the car repo'd because they couldn’t afford it??

THE ONLY REASON these people will get help is because the lending companies are in a credit crunch and their losses and lack of willingness to give new loans is hurting our economy....The reform is to help the economy, not so much the people who made poor choices!!!

NewtoPM
2nd April 2008, 18:13
Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime

How the Bush Administration Stopped the States From Stepping In to Help Consumers


By Eliot Spitzer
Thursday, February 14, 2008; Page A25

Several years ago, state attorneys general and others involved in consumer protection began to notice a marked increase in a range of predatory lending practices by mortgage lenders. Some were misrepresenting the terms of loans, making loans without regard to consumers' ability to repay, making loans with deceptive "teaser" rates that later ballooned astronomically, packing loans with undisclosed charges and fees, or even paying illegal kickbacks. These and other practices, we noticed, were having a devastating effect on home buyers. In addition, the widespread nature of these practices, if left unchecked, threatened our financial markets.
Even though predatory lending was becoming a national problem, the Bush administration looked the other way and did nothing to protect American homeowners. In fact, the government chose instead to align itself with the banks that were victimizing consumers.

Predatory lending was widely understood to present a looming national crisis. This threat was so clear that as New York attorney general, I joined with colleagues in the other 49 states in attempting to fill the void left by the federal government. Individually, and together, state attorneys general of both parties brought litigation or entered into settlements with many subprime lenders that were engaged in predatory lending practices. Several state legislatures, including New York's, enacted laws aimed at curbing such practices.

What did the Bush administration do in response? Did it reverse course and decide to take action to halt this burgeoning scourge? As Americans are now painfully aware, with hundreds of thousands of homeowners facing foreclosure and our markets reeling, the answer is a resounding no.

Not only did the Bush administration do nothing to protect consumers, it embarked on an aggressive and unprecedented campaign to prevent states from protecting their residents from the very problems to which the federal government was turning a blind eye.

Let me explain: The administration accomplished this feat through an obscure federal agency called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC). The OCC has been in existence since the Civil War. Its mission is to ensure the fiscal soundness of national banks. For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation.

Throughout our battles with the OCC and the banks, the mantra of the banks and their defenders was that efforts to curb predatory lending would deny access to credit to the very consumers the states were trying to protect. But the curbs we sought on predatory and unfair lending would have in no way jeopardized access to the legitimate credit market for appropriately priced loans. Instead, they would have stopped the scourge of predatory lending practices that have resulted in countless thousands of consumers losing their homes and put our economy in a precarious position.

When history tells the story of the subprime lending crisis and recounts its devastating effects on the lives of so many innocent homeowners, the Bush administration will not be judged favorably. The tale is still unfolding, but when the dust settles, it will be judged as a willing accomplice to the lenders who went to any lengths in their quest for profits. So willing, in fact, that it used the power of the federal government in an unprecedented assault on state legislatures, as well as on state attorneys general and anyone else on the side of consumers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


So it's the governments fault for not protecting the people from making their own stupid choices? I don’t agree with shady loan practices, and loan guidelines are clear and consumers rights are protected already against this. If you can prove that your lender hid things from you, you as a consumer have rights.

It's funny how in one post you say DID YOU READ WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, they want to control everything in the financial area, clearly stating it as a very bad thing, and in this post you show where the government elects not to put more controls on the financial sector AND again clearly saying that them not controlling it more is a very bad thing.....which way do you want it??

The bottom line in my view is that people are sick of the Government butting into their business, you here it all the time. The fed's this and the government that, there always setting up rules and are always in my way. Yet as soon as something bad happens to them the SCREAM why didn’t my government do something.....

PEOPLE C'MON, take responsibility for your actions, yes about 20% of these people may have been duped and WILL get recourse for it however the other 80% DECIDED to take the risk and knew exactly what they were doing, it just bit them and the lenders in the ars....

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 18:22
You are talking to an American taxpayer who just got stuck with the money it's going to cost us to bail out Bear Stearns and god only knows how many other banks who have been playing the Hedge fund game. It's going to cost me for years, because in order to bail out those banks, the Fed printed more money out of nothing which causes serious inflation.

Spitzer wasn't trying to "bail out" the homeowners, so much as he was trying to change the laws that put homeowners in this positon in the first place. He was trying to change predatory lending practices. Those homeowners got into their loans when interest rates were very low and were told by predatory lenders, "Don't worry about the adjustable rate clause. Our economy and the dollar is strong." When you have saved for years to get into a home and the only loans available have adjustable rates, you don't want to believe the worst can happen, and the banks who lent them that money did NOT talk about the real risks. Let me remind you, unless you have a AAA credit rating, you only qualify for a subprime loan. Ever been late on your credit card payment? Most Americans have been.

Then the banks raised the interest rates. A 1.5% rise can mean your mortgage payment goes up $1000 bucks. Apparently those people found out that buying a home, which is the American Dream, wasn't much of a dream afterall.

Spitzer was attempting to change the laws so that this can never happen again. When I watched the news programs, the media crucified Spitzer and not a single one of them spoke about what Spitzer had been trying to do in terms of changing predatory lending practices. Nor did any member of the media open their mouth about how the present administration was in a battle against Spitzer.

I rather suspect that Bush and the bankers took a dim view of the article Spitzer wrote, particularly since it was published in the Washington Post.

Then, and only then did the hatchet fall on Spitzer which in itself is curious, since apparently Spitzer had been "breaking the law" for years, and people apparently looked the other way. Odd indeed...

Kelly
2nd April 2008, 18:45
It's funny how in one post you say DID YOU READ WHAT THEY WANT TO DO, they want to control everything in the financial area, clearly stating it as a very bad thing, and in this post you show where the government elects not to put more controls on the financial sector AND again clearly saying that them not controlling it more is a very bad thing.....which way do you want it??


Oh bite me. Get real! By "They" I meant the Fed. When the Fed controls everything there will be absolutely NO regulations to protect the consumer.

Every one on this forum that has ever read any of my posts knows that I have very little respect for the Fed or the privately held corporations that own it.

I'm done with this argument. (Does this jerk work for Fleece 'Em and Fly Mortages?)

FedFixNix
2nd April 2008, 22:17
Oh bite me. Get real! By "They" I meant the Fed. When the Fed controls everything there will be absolutely NO regulations to protect the consumer.

Every one on this forum that has ever read any of my posts knows that I have very little respect for the Fed or the privately held corporations that own it.

I'm done with this argument. (Does this jerk work for Fleece 'Em and Fly Mortages?)

I'd guess Dewey, Cheetum & Howe financial consultants. I believe you are spending your time debating with someone who has little clue about how things really work. One hint is that he seems to think the Fed and the federal government are the same thing, or that Federal Reserve actually means what the name implies. You, I and most others here know better.

Some people insist on screaming about their ignorance at the top of their voices. It's ok with me... saves me the trouble of pointing it out to others.

I never bother trying to educate someone who is ignorant by choice.

FedFixNix

All the perplexities, confusions, and distress in America arise, not from defects in the Constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation. -- PRESIDENT JOHN ADAMS

200 year ago ... The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Trvlr45
3rd April 2008, 02:12
Hi Kelly,
You are right about Spitzer going after the banks but you have to keep in mind that the Clintons still have 1100 FBI files and Spitzer was a super delegate. One of the ones who was lining up behind Obama. Just like the mayor of Detroit who just got busted.
The Fed wants the Hildabeast to be the next president. Obama is a strict marxist. He'll attack the big corporations. The Fed doesn't want that. Juan Pablo McCain, although a traitor with his love for globalism and Mexico above his own country will stick too close to the constitution as far as judges go and things like that.
The Hildabeast whilst also being a dedicated marxist will lean to the fascist side to retain power and untimately do what the Fed wants. Nationalized health care is a cash cow for the Fed and their corporate interests. In addition to that when the economy completely melts down they have to have a communist in the whitehouse to enact the "New Deal 2". Most people don't know this but the New Deal was Joseph Stalin's idea. Read, "The Forgotten Man."
As for how they will get her in there we'll have to wait and see. They can rig the votes and the count to a certain extent. If Obama was to win I personally believe that at best he would get the Nixon treatment and possibly the JFK treatment. I don't see Republicans lining up for McCain. He' give us another 4 years of the GW treatment.
Ron Paul was our last chance.

Trvlr45
3rd April 2008, 02:19
Oh bite me. Get real! By "They" I meant the Fed. When the Fed controls everything there will be absolutely NO regulations to protect the consumer.

Every one on this forum that has ever read any of my posts knows that I have very little respect for the Fed or the privately held corporations that own it.

I'm done with this argument. (Does this jerk work for Fleece 'Em and Fly Mortages?)

Bite Me?? HAAAAAA. HAAAaaaaaa!! That's tellin' him. I haven't heard that one in a long time. You're a real pistol. HAAA Haaaa!!

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 09:26
"Bite Me?? HAAAAAA. HAAAaaaaaa!! That's tellin' him. I haven't heard that one in a long time. You're a real pistol. HAAA Haaaa!!"

Hmmm. Well yes, I guess I did lose my cool, huh? You should have seen me at this end of the keyboard! I was spittin' nails and poundin' walls! Just when I thought I had FINALLY developed at least SOME modicum of patience and well-honed debate skills, all I could think of was "bite me"? Gads. And my thesaurus and dictionary were right next to me! You'd think I could have at least looked up some huge, humongous word that probably nobody would understand, but was never-the-less scathing and at LEAST indicative of SOME intelligence, and all I could think of was "bite me"? Jeeze. Will I ever live this down?


"The Fed wants the Hildabeast to be the next president. Obama is a strict marxist. He'll attack the big corporations. The Fed doesn't want that. Juan Pablo McCain, although a traitor with his love for globalism and Mexico above his own country will stick too close to the constitution as far as judges go and things like that….The Hildabeast whilst also being a dedicated marxist will lean to the fascist side to retain power and ultimately do what the Fed wants. Nationalized health care is a cash cow for the Fed and their corporate interests. In addition to that when the economy completely melts down they have to have a communist in the whitehouse to enact the "New Deal 2"… Most people don't know this but the New Deal was Joseph Stalin's idea. As for how they will get her in there we'll have to wait and see. They can rig the votes and the count to a certain extent. If Obama was to win I personally believe that at best he would get the Nixon treatment and possibly the JFK treatment. I don't see Republicans lining up for McCain. He' give us another 4 years of the GW treatment….Ron Paul was our last chance."

Yep, I think you've hit the nail on the head here and summed it up rather concisely. Unless some independent rides in on a white horse after the primaries, it doesn't look real good for us, does it? The Hildabeast Cartel is holding hands with GHW, GW, and the CFR and I think the only thing scarier than that doughball, GW, is somebody a whole lot smarter than he is who is even more determined about meeting their fascist goals. GW is a puppet. He doesn't have the brains to pull the strings. But the Hildabeast is very, very bright and determined, and I've got a disturbing feeling in my gut that behind that political smile she puts on at every photo op, rages such a raving power freak that she'd put any man to shame. The military will support McCain because he supports maintaining a military presence in the Middle East and frankly, I think if GW doesn't attack Iran before his term is over, McCain probably will. Obama would be my choice out of the three, but if he makes it to the oval office, I think he'd better be prepared for the hoard in Washington DC whom I suspect are already laying plans to either crucify or kill him. The man wouldn't be able to even take a leak without armed guards standing by… Ron Paul, for all the effort so many put into his campaign over the internet, was virtually snubbed by the media, and it's too bad because he was the only one out of the whole bunch that made any sense at all.


"Some people insist on screaming about their ignorance at the top of their voices. It's ok with me... saves me the trouble of pointing it out to others."

Hey Nixie, old buddy, old pal; I couldn't have said it better myself. But instead, all I could think of was "Oh bite me." I just can't believe I said that…(walks away, head down, hiding face and shoulders slumping...)

But back to the original question, which was what do we think is going to happen to PMs and the market? I think the market is being flooded with all that new money the Fed has just handed over to upteen million banks and their hedge funds; and the vast majority of those banks do not own shares in the Fed. So when this Dow and Housing Bubble bursts (and it's not over yet folks) and those banks go belly up, I think the Fed will own all the debt paper those banks now hold, which means that when all the housing and the land goes back on the market, every dime of interest paid goes directly to the Fed. I think the Fed is moving to consolidate the banking industry and they want all the control, and if I am right about that, then it's the smaller, local banks and more independant banks that are gong to be their targets, along with capturing all that mountain of money now in the stock market. If history repeats itself, they'll be funneling all that dough back into the same hands of the same tightfisted wealthy few that most of us on this forum have already been discussing. We know who they are. And they'll buy gold and land with all that money. It won't matter where the land is. They'll buy it in every country of the world because once they have control over the world economy AND the food, they are going to try to con themselves and the rest of the world into believing they are God. And of course, that job is already taken...

And hopefully, when all this happens, the PMs will have nowhere to go but up.

NewtoPM
3rd April 2008, 10:35
Oh bite me. Get real! By "They" I meant the Fed. When the Fed controls everything there will be absolutely NO regulations to protect the consumer.

Every one on this forum that has ever read any of my posts knows that I have very little respect for the Fed or the privately held corporations that own it.

I'm done with this argument. (Does this jerk work for Fleece 'Em and Fly Mortages?)

Glad your done, obviousley for you normal debate with someone with a different view then you causes frustartion and name calling, NICE JOB!!

JaySpizzy
3rd April 2008, 10:56
\
But it is also a fact that he had been investigating some extremely wealthy and powerful people for serious crimes.
'

Yup. Maybe we don't see what was at stake. Spitzer blew the whistle at a time when the government had pinpointed the 200 billion dollar payout to the people to ease the subprime mortgage-induced woes. Now, if our credit issues were found out to be the result of intentional wrongdoing by the Bush administration as the Spitzer article exposes, well, that opens an ugly, ugly can of worms doesn't it?
No, this man had to be discredited, and discredited fast: "What have we got on Spitzer!?"

prahudka
4th April 2008, 07:04
Glad your done, obviousley for you normal debate with someone with a different view then you causes frustartion and name calling, NICE JOB!!

Kelly apologized. Accept it gracefully, please.;)

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 12:03
Yep, I think you've hit the nail on the head here and summed it up rather concisely. Unless some independent rides in on a white horse after the primaries, it doesn't look real good for us, does it? The Hildabeast Cartel is holding hands with GHW, GW, and the CFR and I think the only thing scarier than that doughball, GW, is somebody a whole lot smarter than he is who is even more determined about meeting their fascist goals. GW is a puppet. He doesn't have the brains to pull the strings. But the Hildabeast is very, very bright and determined, and I've got a disturbing feeling in my gut that behind that political smile she puts on at every photo op, rages such a raving power freak that she'd put any man to shame. The military will support McCain because he supports maintaining a military presence in the Middle East and frankly, I think if GW doesn't attack Iran before his term is over, McCain probably will. Obama would be my choice out of the three, but if he makes it to the oval office, I think he'd better be prepared for the hoard in Washington DC whom I suspect are already laying plans to either crucify or kill him. The man wouldn't be able to even take a leak without armed guards standing by… Ron Paul, for all the effort so many put into his campaign over the internet, was virtually snubbed by the media, and it's too bad because he was the only one out of the whole bunch that made any sense at all.

You're forgetting about Kucinich, but then so are 98% of everyone else out there. And I still think everyone is placing far too much emphasis on the president, whoever it turns out to be, being able to solve all our problems, even given the small chance that they actually want to. The few honest presidents who have spoken to the subject have al admitted they were powerless to go against the money and banking interests or military industrial establishment ... Lincoln... Garfield... Wilson... Roosevelt... Eisenhower.... John Kennedy ... all of those who tried. The bankers rule, and those in government that don't accept that rule are "neutralized", one way or another... like Spitzer, or anyone else that gets in their way.

But I agree that Obama would go the way of Kennedy or Lincoln, were he to be elected, and if he really tried to bring the changes he keeps talking about. Change is going to come from the grass roots or it won't come at all, IMO.


Hey Nixie, old buddy, old pal; I couldn't have said it better myself. But instead, all I could think of was "Oh bite me." I just can't believe I said that…(walks away, head down, hiding face and shoulders slumping...)

I could see it coming. You've been pushing yourself way too hard on researching and posting this stuff. I was just about to write to tell you to take a break. You're only human... I think ;-)


But back to the original question, which was what do we think is going to happen to PMs and the market? I think the market is being flooded with all that new money the Fed has just handed over to upteen million banks and their hedge funds; and the vast majority of those banks do not own shares in the Fed. So when this Dow and Housing Bubble bursts (and it's not over yet folks) and those banks go belly up, I think the Fed will own all the debt paper those banks now hold, which means that when all the housing and the land goes back on the market, every dime of interest paid goes directly to the Fed. I think the Fed is moving to consolidate the banking industry and they want all the control, and if I am right about that, then it's the smaller, local banks and more independent banks that are gong to be their targets, along with capturing all that mountain of money now in the stock market. If history repeats itself, ....

And of course, it IS repeating itself. They bought up all the failed banks and business in 1929 and the 30s, and then got FDR to call in all the gold and fix the price at 35$, or whatever it was. I agree with all you say here, an more I've tried to spell out elsewhere.


....they'll be funneling all that dough back into the same hands of the same tightfisted wealthy few that most of us on this forum have already been discussing. We know who they are. And they'll buy gold and land with all that money.

The only problem I have with that statement is that they already OWN all the gold and the land. Most of the world's gold is already sitting in their vaults, under their private ownership. They already own most of the oil an mining land, or the other lands that are resource rich. They are only tightening their hold... consolidating their power upwards.

[/QUOTE] It won't matter where the land is. They'll buy it in every country of the world because once they have control over the world economy AND the food, ...[/QUOTE]

They already own the food too. Read up on Monsanto and Codex Alementarius. They are flooding the third world's poorest nations who are starving to death with genetically modified rice, corn, wheat and such that "will not reproduce". It is sterile, neutered, (much like they want to do will humans) and so new seed must be bought (from Monsanto) every season. Now they flood this genetically modified corn, rice, etc in a low prices, that drive local farmers out of business, thus destroying not only the competition, but also the ability of that nation or region to grow its own reproducible seed crops. No seed crops, no competition, no self-sustainable food sources, so they must now buy genetically modified seed from Monsanto, forever. Hey, its OK, because Jay Racketfeller said, "Competition is a sin"! Sounds like he was right, according to the way our world is going.


...they are going to try to con themselves and the rest of the world into believing they are God. And of course, that job is already taken...

Yes, but few people actually realize that any more, of if they do they maintain grotesque and mistaken concepts about the Universal Creator. It's partly these warped concepts that are contributing to the problem, if not causing it outright. It's not a matter of God being on "our side"; its all about our being on "God's side".

See? Its just more upside down and backwards doublespeak. The very root of our problems is moral, ethical and spiritual, and without fixing those things the rest of it is going to remain broken. (By "it" I mean the immense social, economic and political problems that face us)

And hopefully, when all this happens, the PMs will have nowhere to go but up.[/QUOTE]

For a while, perhaps, assuming a free and unmanipulated market. But that is NOT the case. We have an extremely controlled and manipulated market, and have had one for many decades. Of course the problem with manipulation, and monopolistic control is worsening. Lately is is worsening exponentially, and that is why a collapse of the markets is inevitable. Sooner or later a house of cards must collapse.

So yes, I think all the real market pressures are to drive the dollar down and PMs up. Only massive market intervention by the Fed, Investment Banks, and Bullion Banks have been keeping PMs depressed, but that can't last forever.

Or can it?

At some point they are going to bring in the NAU and the Amero, announce that gold and PMs are going to be called in or the prices will be fixed, the NWO will be formed, and the world will be theirs in name as well as in fact, as it is now.

The Samero (South American monetary unit) will follow, and all the nation will be merged into continental governments, which in turn will be centralized under the international central bankers.

If it were all done the right way, it would be a good thing, but under totalitarian power it will be a horrible thing.

Eventually this planet will have a one-world government federation of nations and states. The only thing at issue is whether it will be one that is representative of the people or one that represses the people.

Which will it be, I wonder?

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 12:06
Oh, and if I wasn't clear in my last post, PMs are going up, or down, depending on what the Fed chooses to do, and how much manipulation they use. So you tell me what their plans and timing is, and I'll tell you all which way the PM market is going.

jbh
4th April 2008, 14:01
Well done. Any apology should have gone something like: "I'm sorry you are a dumbsheep and lack the ability to see what's going on. May God have mercy on your ill-informed soul"

ps, buy a plane ticket to Uruguay.

fin

Kelly
4th April 2008, 14:15
Well done. Any apology should have gone something like: "I'm sorry you are a dumbsheep and lack the ability to see what's going on. May God have mercy on your ill-informed soul.

Well, while I definately did get frustrated and lost some composure, I was somewhat amused that the person in question determined I had resorted to "name calling." In my neck of the woods, "jerk" is not considered name calling. When we resort to name calling in my state, trust me, we generally use considerably more inflametory terms than the descriptive word I used.

chux03
4th April 2008, 14:32
http://elainemeinelsupkis.typepad.com/


YIKES!! Probably one of the smartest, best read, most financially astute, knowledgeable authors specializing in THE BIG PICTURE of WORLD FINANCES I can think of or have personally read.

Plus, you can swear here too when you leave a comment... HA!!

I check out her blog everyday...

Kelly
4th April 2008, 14:47
And I'll admit it, it is an emotional issue with me. I have friends out there who are hard working middle-class Americans with families to take care of. They work their butts off every day. They took out an adjustable rate mortgage because, at the time, no other kind of mortgage was being offered. The banker assured them if the rates went up "maybe another $200 is all it will cost you a month." Bull. They saw their house payments go up over $1000. They made the payments for a while, but then couldn't do it any more. They were foreclosed on.

I have other friends who bought homes ten years ago when times were good, and they had a fixed rate mortgage. They paid a hefty down payment on their home and have been making mortgage payments for ten lousy years; even taking on another part time job to keep up with the house payments. After all that money and all that time because the housing market is now so depressed, they had absolutely no equity what-so-ever in their home. Their home is worth today far less than what they paid for it, not to mention far less than the price reflected by their monthly mortgage payments. They had to make the decision "Do we eat and keep the heat on or pay the mortgage?"

With stagnant wages, inflation, and the prices at the gas station and grocery store hitting the roof, my friends made the only decision they could to keep their families taken care of and fed. They moved out of their home and walked on their mortgage loan and are now crammed into a 2 bdrm. apartment. And because of that, their credit is ruined, probably for the rest of their lives. They are both just sick about what happened. The wife cries her eyes out about every day. She made the curtains for the windows, they painted the walls, they put the new carpeting in. All that money and work, now gone up in smoke.

I don't like to see good people blamed for something they ultimately had no control over. And it's happening all over America today.

prahudka
4th April 2008, 14:57
Oh, and if I wasn't clear in my last post, PMs are going up, or down, depending on what the Fed chooses to do, and how much manipulation they use. So you tell me what their plans and timing is, and I'll tell you all which way the PM market is going.

That's the tough part. Clairvoyance is not my strong suit.:confused:

jbh
4th April 2008, 15:15
This is why i hate it when people are like "conspiracy? Don't buy into that crazy stuff." The whole of history is a tapestry of conspiracies. We've been so dumbed down and tamed we don't even know there's something to fight against. What's the bertrand russel quote? "from an early age diet, injections and injuctions will combine to produce the sorts of traits rulers find desirable." something like that. I hate seeing good people suffer. My in-laws, who I love dearly, tell me they're "gonna ride it out" and "don't wanna talk about it." Now crazy son-in-law's gonna have to take care of them-- if i even can. Anyone on these boards should understand that the reason owning sound money, the oney of the people, is so important is because there has been a centuries' old conspiracy to destroy it and us.

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 16:21
This is why i hate it when people are like "conspiracy? Don't buy into that crazy stuff." The whole of history is a tapestry of conspiracies. We've been so dumbed down and tamed we don't even know there's something to fight against. What's the bertrand russel quote? "from an early age diet, injections and injuctions will combine to produce the sorts of traits rulers find desirable." something like that. I hate seeing good people suffer. My in-laws, who I love dearly, tell me they're "gonna ride it out" and "don't wanna talk about it." Now crazy son-in-law's gonna have to take care of them-- if i even can. Anyone on these boards should understand that the reason owning sound money, the oney of the people, is so important is because there has been a centuries' old conspiracy to destroy it and us.

Did I welcome you to the forum yet? If not, then "welcome". :-)

For me the pearl here is "The whole of history is a tapestry of conspiracies."

The only people who don't know that are those who have never bothered studying history out of anything more than a high school textbook. And that's almost worse than not studying it at all. It gives the student a very limited, narrow, simplistic and one-sided view of what a committee of censors agree is "safe" to include in the story of "what happened". Such texts very rarely if ever include real reasons or opposing views for the *reasons* the events took place. Try getting a straight answer from standard history texts or teachers about the reasons for the "Opium Wars". You won't, any more than you will get straight answer about the dividing up of the Middle East by the big three oil companies, or the "seven sisters" that is the cause of 90% of the violence and tension on that region today.

People just don't learn history, and "those who don't learn from our past (mistakes) are doomed to repeat it (them)"... until they do.

Well folks sure are about to get some hard lessons, and very soon.

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 16:33
That's the tough part. Clairvoyance is not my strong suit.:confused:

Nor is it mine. However, I do believe that the future is a logical extension of the past and present, and that a deep understanding of them will us to make better suppositions about the future. Some call that "prophesy". I just call it informed common sense.

That's why I said: "Oh, and if I wasn't clear in my last post, PMs are going up, or down, depending on what the Fed chooses to do, and how much manipulation they use. So you tell me what their plans and timing is, and I'll tell you all which way the PM market is going."

Of course if you study the Fed, and have figured out their game plan, then you can guestimate their overall strategy. It's a bit more difficult to pin down the timing, and in the markets, timing is everything.

Trvlr45
4th April 2008, 21:03
Hmmm. Well yes, I guess I did lose my cool, huh? You should have seen me at this end of the keyboard! I was spittin' nails and poundin' walls! Just when I thought I had FINALLY developed at least SOME modicum of patience and well-honed debate skills, all I could think of was "bite me"? Gads. And my thesaurus and dictionary were right next to me! You'd think I could have at least looked up some huge, humongous word that probably nobody would understand, but was never-the-less scathing and at LEAST indicative of SOME intelligence, and all I could think of was "bite me"? Jeeze. Will I ever live this down?



Yep, I think you've hit the nail on the head here and summed it up rather concisely. Unless some independent rides in on a white horse after the primaries, it doesn't look real good for us, does it? The Hildabeast Cartel is holding hands with GHW, GW, and the CFR and I think the only thing scarier than that doughball, GW, is somebody a whole lot smarter than he is who is even more determined about meeting their fascist goals. GW is a puppet. He doesn't have the brains to pull the strings. But the Hildabeast is very, very bright and determined, and I've got a disturbing feeling in my gut that behind that political smile she puts on at every photo op, rages such a raving power freak that she'd put any man to shame. The military will support McCain because he supports maintaining a military presence in the Middle East and frankly, I think if GW doesn't attack Iran before his term is over, McCain probably will. Obama would be my choice out of the three, but if he makes it to the oval office, I think he'd better be prepared for the hoard in Washington DC whom I suspect are already laying plans to either crucify or kill him. The man wouldn't be able to even take a leak without armed guards standing by… Ron Paul, for all the effort so many put into his campaign over the internet, was virtually snubbed by the media, and it's too bad because he was the only one out of the whole bunch that made any sense at all.



Hey Nixie, old buddy, old pal; I couldn't have said it better myself. But instead, all I could think of was "Oh bite me." I just can't believe I said that…(walks away, head down, hiding face and shoulders slumping...)

But back to the original question, which was what do we think is going to happen to PMs and the market? I think the market is being flooded with all that new money the Fed has just handed over to upteen million banks and their hedge funds; and the vast majority of those banks do not own shares in the Fed. So when this Dow and Housing Bubble bursts (and it's not over yet folks) and those banks go belly up, I think the Fed will own all the debt paper those banks now hold, which means that when all the housing and the land goes back on the market, every dime of interest paid goes directly to the Fed. I think the Fed is moving to consolidate the banking industry and they want all the control, and if I am right about that, then it's the smaller, local banks and more independant banks that are gong to be their targets, along with capturing all that mountain of money now in the stock market. If history repeats itself, they'll be funneling all that dough back into the same hands of the same tightfisted wealthy few that most of us on this forum have already been discussing. We know who they are. And they'll buy gold and land with all that money. It won't matter where the land is. They'll buy it in every country of the world because once they have control over the world economy AND the food, they are going to try to con themselves and the rest of the world into believing they are God. And of course, that job is already taken...

And hopefully, when all this happens, the PMs will have nowhere to go but up.

Kelly,
I didn't think you lost your cool. I though that was halarious. Much better than a huge word no one would understand. I just hadn't heard that term in a long time. I think Animal House was the last time.
As for the Hildabeastm you're right. I think she is certifiably insane and not of sound mind. I see right through that act she puts on. Unfortunately I think we will be better off with the Hildabeast than Obama any day. Obama is dangerous, way more dangerous than the Hildabeast. We may as well put Chavez or Castro in the Whitehouse because Obama is one of them. He hates this country with a passion. He's a rabid racist and you can see the hate in his wife's eyes. Ive spent some time in the sewers of America and I've seen that look many times. She's an American hating racist as well. Hillary has so much baggage and criminal activity in her past she'll spend the whole term covering up like Bill did. Not that for one minute do I want to see that thing in the whitehouse but I think it will end up that way.

Trvlr45
4th April 2008, 21:29
You're forgetting about Kucinich, but then so are 98% of everyone else out there. And I still think everyone is placing far too much emphasis on the president, whoever it turns out to be, being able to solve all our problems, even given the small chance that they actually want to. The few honest presidents who have spoken to the subject have al admitted they were powerless to go against the money and banking interests or military industrial establishment ... Lincoln... Garfield... Wilson... Roosevelt... Eisenhower.... John Kennedy ... all of those who tried. The bankers rule, and those in government that don't accept that rule are "neutralized", one way or another... like Spitzer, or anyone else that gets in their way.

But I agree that Obama would go the way of Kennedy or Lincoln, were he to be elected, and if he really tried to bring the changes he keeps talking about. Change is going to come from the grass roots or it won't come at all, IMO.



I could see it coming. You've been pushing yourself way too hard on researching and posting this stuff. I was just about to write to tell you to take a break. You're only human... I think ;-)



And of course, it IS repeating itself. They bought up all the failed banks and business in 1929 and the 30s, and then got FDR to call in all the gold and fix the price at 35$, or whatever it was. I agree with all you say here, an more I've tried to spell out elsewhere.



The only problem I have with that statement is that they already OWN all the gold and the land. Most of the world's gold is already sitting in their vaults, under their private ownership. They already own most of the oil an mining land, or the other lands that are resource rich. They are only tightening their hold... consolidating their power upwards.

It won't matter where the land is. They'll buy it in every country of the world because once they have control over the world economy AND the food, ...[/QUOTE]

They already own the food too. Read up on Monsanto and Codex Alementarius. They are flooding the third world's poorest nations who are starving to death with genetically modified rice, corn, wheat and such that "will not reproduce". It is sterile, neutered, (much like they want to do will humans) and so new seed must be bought (from Monsanto) every season. Now they flood this genetically modified corn, rice, etc in a low prices, that drive local farmers out of business, thus destroying not only the competition, but also the ability of that nation or region to grow its own reproducible seed crops. No seed crops, no competition, no self-sustainable food sources, so they must now buy genetically modified seed from Monsanto, forever. Hey, its OK, because Jay Racketfeller said, "Competition is a sin"! Sounds like he was right, according to the way our world is going.

And hopefully, when all this happens, the PMs will have nowhere to go but up.[/QUOTE]

For a while, perhaps, assuming a free and unmanipulated market. But that is NOT the case. We have an extremely controlled and manipulated market, and have had one for many decades. Of course the problem with manipulation, and monopolistic control is worsening. Lately is is worsening exponentially, and that is why a collapse of the markets is inevitable. Sooner or later a house of cards must collapse.

So yes, I think all the real market pressures are to drive the dollar down and PMs up. Only massive market intervention by the Fed, Investment Banks, and Bullion Banks have been keeping PMs depressed, but that can't last forever.

Or can it?

At some point they are going to bring in the NAU and the Amero, announce that gold and PMs are going to be called in or the prices will be fixed, the NWO will be formed, and the world will be theirs in name as well as in fact, as it is now.

The Samero (South American monetary unit) will follow, and all the nation will be merged into continental governments, which in turn will be centralized under the international central bankers.

If it were all done the right way, it would be a good thing, but under totalitarian power it will be a horrible thing.

Eventually this planet will have a one-world government federation of nations and states. The only thing at issue is whether it will be one that is representative of the people or one that represses the people.

Which will it be, I wonder?[/QUOTE]

I don't wonder at all. They have plans to do a lot worse than repress or opress us. They are already poisioning the food supply. Aspertame is just one fine example. Then you have genetically altered corn and who knows what else. Eugenics is alive and well. Then there is sustainable medicine which is already in practice in England, Spain and Canada. That is where they start murdering people by rationing the health care or refusing to treat you because you're too old or you had a bad habit they don't approve of.

Trvlr45
4th April 2008, 21:32
As far as PM's go. I think they will go to the moon at least for a short while or they may stay there if there is an underground economy that develops like in every dictatorship. We don't have to tell them we have it and we don't have to turn it in.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 22:48
Trvl45 said,


They already own the food too. Read up on Monsanto and Codex Alementarius. They are flooding the third world's poorest nations who are starving to death with genetically modified rice, corn, wheat and such that "will not reproduce". It is sterile, neutered, (much like they want to do will humans) and so new seed must be bought (from Monsanto) every season. Now they flood this genetically modified corn, rice, etc in a low prices, that drive local farmers out of business, thus destroying not only the competition, but also the ability of that nation or region to grow its own reproducible seed crops. No seed crops, no competition, no self-sustainable food sources, so they must now buy genetically modified seed from Monsanto, forever. Hey, its OK, because Jay Racketfeller said, "Competition is a sin"! Sounds like he was right, according to the way our world is going.

It is just disgusting. Everything we grow is controlled by a mere handful of huge, utterly enormous cooperate farmers, and most smaller farmers are growing things under contract to the same handful that controls everything. Do you realize how much cotton we export? And cotton is subsidized, like corn and wheat and rice is. Because of the farm subsidies handed over in billions of dollars annually to the wealthy agro-corps, all of these commodities are dumped on the international marketplace at LESS than it actually cost the farmers to produce the products. Some of the poorest African nations can grow cotton, but they can't afford to market it at less than it costs to produce it, so those nations starve. The farmers in India cannot compete in the rice market because rice is subsidized too. The small farmers in India have been committing suicide by drinking pesticides, then the same huge corporations move in and buy up their land. Over 600 rural Mexican landowners are being driven off their land every day. Mexican's have seen the price of corn tortillas, a staple in their diet, double because Monsanto corn is now being used for ethanol. Dairy farmers, Beef ranchers and chicken farmers can no longer afford the corn it takes to feed their animals.

The average person going to the grocery store sees mountains of food lined up in nice, neat little rows, but they have no idea how it is grown today, much less how food and market manipulation of the food commodities is utterly destroying people's lives all over the world.

We've all seen the way the silver market has been manipulated by the future's commodity exchange, but precisely the same sort of manipulation goes on in food commodities. And it's worse, ten thousands times worse than anything we see in the precious metals market because the manipulation of food commodities is literally costing millions of lives.

Trvl45 drives long haul truck for a living, and he knows what is going on. In some countries the food is quite literally being purposefully poisoned and in others its being purposefully withheld. It's happening from one end of the world to the other and this has been planned. I heard about this plan nearly 25 years ago from a wealthy banker from Europe.

I didn't believe it then. But I sure do today.

Trvl45 isn't telling you a conspiracy theory. He's telling you what he has seen. He's telling you what he's hauling in his trucks. He's telling you what you are eating.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 23:06
They are already poisioning the food supply. Aspertame is just one fine example. Then you have genetically altered corn and who knows what else. Eugenics is alive and well. Then there is sustainable medicine which is already in practice in England, Spain and Canada. That is where they start murdering people by rationing the health care or refusing to treat you because you're too old or you had a bad habit they don't approve of.


I just watched a video yesterday where they were talking about Monsanto's genetically altered seeds and food crops. The DNA strands in the corn (etc.) is proving to be unstable and is recombining in combinations no one expected. The researchers say they don't have a clue how this is going to effect human DNA, but they are worried that eating food products with unstable DNA will do some serious damage to human health.

The next time you folks go to the grocery store, start reading the ingrediants list on the products. I'll bet you'll see corn listed on about 90% of them, from the corn sucrose in your soft drinks, to corn gluten to whatever. Understand something, most of that corn was raised from seed bought from Monsanto. And their corn is in just about everything we eat today.

prahudka
5th April 2008, 08:39
I just watched a video yesterday where they were talking about Monsanto's genetically altered seeds and food crops. The DNA strands in the corn (etc.) is proving to be unstable and is recombining in combinations no one expected. The researchers say they don't have a clue how this is going to effect human DNA, but they are worried that eating food products with unstable DNA will do some serious damage to human health.

The next time you folks go to the grocery store, start reading the ingrediants list on the products. I'll bet you'll see corn listed on about 90% of them, from the corn sucrose in your soft drinks, to corn gluten to whatever. Understand something, most of that corn was raised from seed bought from Monsanto. And their corn is in just about everything we eat today.

Local food is now more available than in the last 20 years. You may have to look for it, but it is there. Local, trustworthy. Maybe that is considered economic terrorism. Frankenfood produce is getting more expensive and causing more local producers to ramp up. We have suppliers of organic produce (in addition to our own), raw milk, fresh bread, excellent cheese, etc.

Think about it. This is the same as banking Kennedy halfs. You are going off the grid because the f*&^ing grid is bent and is as enjoyable as dog **** cookies with really tiny, artificially flavored chocolate chips.

Eat better and comfort yourself with the fact that the special place in Hell for these nice businesspeople is plenty hot.

Kelly
5th April 2008, 11:20
Prahudka, yes, I have been advocating locally grown organic food from farmers markets for well over 20 years now. But you are seriously mistaken if you think that gives us protection; it doesn't. The pollens and seeds from genetically modified plants are invasive; they travel by wind, are carried by birds and the pollen even travels on the feet of pollinating insects. Farms that have been certified organic are loosing their certification because of it. All over the world, throughout America, Canada, India, South America and beyond, GMOs are invading sustainable, organic crops and destroying plants that have been reliably in production for thousands of years. If you think chemical fertilizers and pesticides are destroying the food chain, they are but child's play in comparison to genetically modified organisms simply because GMOs are engineered to reproduce and replicate themselves; something that fertilizers and pesticides simply cannot do. Unfortunately genetic modification is a technology that ultimately invades, pollutes, contaminates and inevitably destroys the natural species and this is the fundamental and primary nature of GMO technology whether it applies to crops, fish or animals. Unless we stop it, I think it could be the end of biodiversity on planet earth.

In the last couple of weeks or so, I've been reviewing most of the GMO related videos on YouTube; partly to keep up with what is going on, and partly to determine which video or series provides the most useful information so I can recommend it. There are a ton of good videos out there, some dealing with plants, some dealing with animals or RBGH in milk, and some talking about the lack of testing for health risks and the political implications that Monsanto and other large corporations show for completely controlling the world's food supply. It's a very serious issue.

I'd rate this series best; each video is under 10 minutes. It's called "Genetically Modified; Unnatural Selection."

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA76tcYLNXg Dangers to Organic foods
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XofBZGKr6Wk&feature=related
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1bygkTN4m8&feature=related
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJUxruQf7E&feature=related – animal GMOs!!!!
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q29YpSd3MKE&feature=related
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxMcFu6wLxY&feature=related Health Risks
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8euvlswiJO4&feature=related

This is a very good video too.

The World According to Monsanto – released March 11-08 1hr. 50 min
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-842180934463681887&q=Monsanto&total=1406&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

Wake up people. Monsanto, the same company that brought Agent Orange to Viet Nam is now attempting to control our food supply with "Round-Up Ready" food crops. You've got no idea what this is doing to your health; particularly the health of children.

This video, a short one, should drive it home to you. GM Maize (i.e. corn) is what is being fed to chickens, dairy, beef and pork animals all over the world. This crap is in EVERYTHING, including all our meat, eggs and dairy products.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTckPAdDm9g

Furthermore, absolutely nothing you buy has to be labled "Genetically Modified," in America, thanks to a globalist corporation which has pretty much infiltrated the FDA, USDA and is one of the biggest lobbyists on Captial HIll.

prahudka
6th April 2008, 08:04
In the last couple of weeks or so, I've been reviewing most of the GMO related videos on YouTube; partly to keep up with what is going on, and partly to determine which video or series provides the most useful information so I can recommend it. There are a ton of good videos out there, some dealing with plants, some dealing with animals or RBGH in milk, and some talking about the lack of testing for health risks and the political implications that Monsanto and other large corporations show for completely controlling the world's food supply. It's a very serious issue.

Eek! You are full of good news.

Thanks for the videos. Very informative. Unfortunately, they make me think bad thoughts about Monsanto.

Kelly
6th April 2008, 11:01
Thanks for the videos. Very informative. Unfortunately, they make me think bad thoughts about Monsanto.

I don't think much of them either, never-the-less, thinking bad thoughts about Monsanto won't do you, me or anybody else any good. I posted that information in the hopes that it would light a fire under a few people so that you will write your congressmen and representatives and get active in the attempt to stop these folks. There are several very, very important laws before congress right now, including the "country of origin" labeling law, "truth in labeling" law, and laws which state that "genetically modified" foods be labeled as such as well as any and all meats that come from cloned animals.

Those laws won't outlaw this stuff, but AT LEAST they would give the consumer the right to decide for themselves that they are not going to purchase those products, and right now, you haven't been given the right to make that decision.

There are supposed to be several other laws being considered demanding more stringent testing by outside sources, and a ton of other things, but right now, the FDA and USDA have made all the rulings, and those two government agencies are doing a deplorable job and look like they have sold out to the big Ag Corporations lock, stock and barrel.

This is SO important people. They are dong it to potatoes, and next in line is cauliflower, tomatoes and broccoli; every single thing we eat. Ultimately this destroys the varieties and differences in seed species, i.e. the genetic bio-diversity we have that virtually guarantees us that if one type of crop fails another will succeed. That bio-diversity insures we all have food on the table. And when bio-diversity is gone, all it's going to take is one new disease, or one GMO resistant insect to wipe out crops all over the world. And that's famine in the worst way.

Write your congressmen and grocery stores. Demand the labeling laws, and demand that these things NOT be sold until further testing is done by an outside source. Monsanto isn't the only corporation doing this; they are just the biggest one.

By the way, you are already eating meat from cloned animals. It's already in the grocery stores. They are cloning the best producers, and then harvesting the eggs from that clone, fertilizing the eggs in a petri dish, and then implanting those eggs in other animals who become the surrogate mothers. So they are using invitro fertilization techniques to produce thousands of offspring all coming from the same cloned animal. It's happening with pigs, beef and dairy cows. That's the "in thing" on all the factory farms today. Again, this completely does away with genetic bio-diversity and produces animals far more susceptible to diseases like ecoli.

You've got to understand, these people are already putting cow genes in pigs, rat genes in cattle; The next thing you know they will be crossing a leopard with a beef animal so we can all wear leopard fur coats. They are doing this as I write. They are producing chimeras, just like in the old mythology we used to read about in school. But today it's not a myth. It's happening for real.

They have already produced a pig with a cow's skin. They are doing this because pig skin is not as durable as a leather, but they can make coats, shoes and purses out of cow skin. So they have now invented a pig that has cow's skin. Unreal.

And you don't want to watch the videos that show their falures. The poor animals. I won't post those videos; they are enough to make you gag.