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prahudka
21st March 2008, 13:23
Is it anyone's business what or how you buy?

Questions arise from the story of Elliott Spitzer.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/123489


When Congress passed the Patriot Act in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, law-enforcement agencies hailed it as a powerful tool to help track down the confederates of Osama bin Laden. No one expected it would end up helping to snag the likes of Eliot Spitzer. The odd connection between the antiterror law and Spitzer's trysts with call girls illustrates how laws enacted for one purpose often end up being used very differently once they're on the books.

The Patriot Act gave the FBI new powers to snoop on suspected terrorists. In the fine print were provisions that gave the Treasury Department authority to demand more information from banks about their customers' financial transactions. Congress wanted to help the Feds identify terrorist money launderers. But Treasury went further. It issued stringent new regulations that required banks themselves to look for unusual transactions (such as odd patterns of cash withdrawals or wire transfers) and submit SARs—Suspicious Activity Reports—to the government. Facing potentially stiff penalties if they didn't comply, banks and other financial institutions installed sophisticated software to detect anomalies among millions of daily transactions. They began ranking the risk levels of their customers—on a scale of zero to 100—based on complex formulas that included the credit rating, assets and profession of the account holder.

Another element of the formulas: whether an account holder was a "politically exposed person." At first focused on potentially crooked foreign officials, the PEP lists expanded to include many U.S. politicians and public officials who were conceivably vulnerable to corruption.

The new scrutiny resulted in an explosion of SARs, from 204,915 in 2001 to 1.23 million last year. The data, stored in an IRS computer in Detroit, are accessible by law-enforcement agencies nationwide. "Terrorism has virtually nothing to do with it," says Peter Djinis, a former top Treasury lawyer. "The vast majority of SARs filed today involve garden-variety forms of white-collar crime." Federal prosecutors around the country routinely scour the SARs for potential leads.

There is nothing wrong with withdrawing money to buy silver, or buying silver at all. Is there? Its money. Its not goods. There is numismatic value (arguably), since there is a flury of coin-melting going on. Someone told me that a mere bullion buyer should be reported and taxed. But not so, coin collectors. Huh? :confused:

Irons
21st March 2008, 21:33
Not owning any silver myself, I have no idea what you are talking about.

SilverFreak
25th March 2008, 11:54
This is just my personal opinion.

A person could buy with cash, keep the silver hid, sell private for cash and keep it hid. If this person were to get caught though they most liekly will have to pay income tax on any profits. At least that is how it works here in Canada. But if a person is smart with the cash and keep it out of the banks and don't buy huge purchases with the silver profits then you may be able to hide it.

This being said I can not speak from experience on this. So in the end you have to decide what to do yourself.

Kelly
25th March 2008, 12:19
In 1984 the IRS proposed new legislation that distinguished between bullion and numismatic gold and silver. This could be used in the future as a standard to define what is exempt from confiscation. They said that gold or silver coins or bars must be worth at least 15% more than their metal value on sell back to qualify as a collectable rather than as bullion. Why would they possibly make such a distinction unless they planned, at some future date, to recall the bullion?

It was in April, 1933 and in his first "official" act in office; President Roosevelt declared a banking "holiday" and issued the order to confiscate gold:

Executive order: By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5(B) of The Act of Oct. 6, 1917, as amended by section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, in which Congress declared that a serious emergency exists, I as President, do declare that the national emergency still exists; That the continued private hoarding of gold and silver by subjects of the United States poses a grave threat to the peace, equal justice, and well-being of the United States; and that appropriate measures must be taken immediately to protect the interests of our people. "Therefore, pursuant to the above authority, I herby proclaim that such gold and silver holdings are prohibited, and that all such coin, bullion or other possessions of gold and silver be tendered within fourteen days to agents of the Government of the United States for compensation at the official price, in the legal tender of the Government. All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed, pending action in the due course of the law. All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver within the borders of the United States and its territories, and all foreign exchange transactions or movements of such metals across the border are herby prohibited. "Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe-deposit box to store them is known to the Government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of The Internal Revenue Service. "By lawful Order given this day, the President of the United States."

In this act of theft, the citizens of the United States of America were compensated at the "official" price of $20.67 an ounce. That was the "official" price of gold for 97 years. Following the confiscation, the dollar was devalued by 40% - and the price of gold was revalued upwards to $35 an ounce.

Under the authority of the Emergency Banking Relief Act, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6102 which allowed the Government to confiscate all privately owned gold in the United States. The owners would be repaid in paper dollars whether they like it or not.

Kelly
25th March 2008, 12:51
I just tried to do some further research and found this article from 2005

Treasury Claims Power to Seize Gold & Silver -- and everything else
By: Chris Powell, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.

http://news.goldseek.com/GATA/1124647043.php

According to this guy...

"One of the most important precautions is to not keep precious metals in a U.S. safety deposit box. President Roosevelt ordered all safety deposit boxes sealed when he issued his March 9, 1933 gold confiscation order. My grandparents couldn't retrieve their holdings from their safety deposit box until government thugs had rifled through it."

http://nestmannblog.sovereignsociety.com/forfeiture/index.html


The whole thing gives me severe eebie jeebies.

paker
25th March 2008, 16:37
I remember my grandmother showing me a $5.00 gold piece she had hidden from the confiscation. I was surprised at it's tiny size.

JesterJay
25th March 2008, 22:49
Just a scratch bigger than a nickel. Probaby only 0.4mm, to be exact.
JesterJay



I remember my grandmother showing me a $5.00 gold piece she had hidden from the confiscation. I was surprised at it's tiny size.

prahudka
26th March 2008, 08:13
By the way, what about sales tax on coins? What states are good/bad?





The whole thing gives me severe eebie jeebies.

I don't mean to downplay too much the fact that I am a religious fanatic.

But, that aside, your post strikes me to think about how evil this whole area is. Debasing the currency is a time honored fraud of governments. But, to actually confiscate what people has is just such a naked manifestation of tyranny. We are in a pretty wierd area here. It is beyond just greed. The heebie jeebies are the appropriate reaction.

I think there is more than personal ethics in the following:

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Here is a description of end times "merchandise":

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

Let's make this other connection:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Yes, I think they are going to make every effort to take your money. ANd for what and why? Well, why does Rover lick himself where he does? Because he likes it and he can do it. Lastly, this is about propping up the conceit of a fully manipulated economy. You can accept the Bible quotes are not, but the wierdness is pretty evident.

Creepy.

Kelly
26th March 2008, 09:10
By the way, what about sales tax on coins? What states are good/bad?

There are five states currantly without any sales tax; Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon

prahudka
26th March 2008, 10:19
There are five states currantly without any sales tax; Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon

Does it matter whether it is coins, bullion or coins with numismatic value?

Kelly
26th March 2008, 10:27
In the states without sales tax it wouldn't matter at all. In the states with sales tax, silver, regardless of it's form, would supposedly be taxed just like any other consumer purchase in that state.

I happen to live in one of the states without sales tax. That may be a blessing in terms of purchasing silver, but you sure don't want to pay our state income tax or property taxes.

JesterJay
26th March 2008, 15:51
Add South Dakota to that list. Assuming you are talking about specific, not general tax.
Numismatic and bullion are NOT taxed in SD as of July 1, 2007.
And darned glad about it too,
JesterJay



There are five states currantly without any sales tax; Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon

paker
26th March 2008, 16:02
All US coins are exempt from Florida sales tax as of July 1st, 1999. Foreign coins and bars of silver, gold and platinum are exempt once the sale is $500 or more.

Daveman
26th March 2008, 16:42
I'm in California and my bullion and silver eagles were not taxed. ??

Kelly
26th March 2008, 19:33
Not living in a state with sales tax, I am curious. Is it up to each individual state whether silver bullion and coins are taxed, or is this now federal policy?

Anybody know?

JesterJay
26th March 2008, 21:04
States decide what to tax. Bullion and coins included. In South Dakota it is a state law that got rid of the tax. Otherwise they would be taxed like everything else @ 5.92. NOT 6% That would be waaaaay too easy. And .o8% too high evidently.
JesterJay



Not living in a state with sales tax, I am curious. Is it up to each individual state whether silver bullion and coins are taxed, or is this now federal policy?

Anybody know?

Kelly
27th March 2008, 02:07
Actually, it's pretty danged interesting that some states with sales tax don't tax sales on silver and gold boullion. If the same state taxes consumer goods, then obviously that state does not consider silver and gold a consumer good, but considers it constitutional or alternative currancy.

Cool.

Kimber
29th March 2008, 02:50
In 1984 the IRS proposed new legislation that distinguished between bullion and numismatic gold and silver. This could be used in the future as a standard to define what is exempt from confiscation. They said that gold or silver coins or bars must be worth at least 15% more than their metal value on sell back to qualify as a collectable rather than as bullion. Why would they possibly make such a distinction unless they planned, at some future date, to recall the bullion?

It was in April, 1933 and in his first "official" act in office; President Roosevelt declared a banking "holiday" and issued the order to confiscate gold:

Executive order: By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5(B) of The Act of Oct. 6, 1917, as amended by section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, in which Congress declared that a serious emergency exists, I as President, do declare that the national emergency still exists; That the continued private hoarding of gold and silver by subjects of the United States poses a grave threat to the peace, equal justice, and well-being of the United States; and that appropriate measures must be taken immediately to protect the interests of our people. "Therefore, pursuant to the above authority, I herby proclaim that such gold and silver holdings are prohibited, and that all such coin, bullion or other possessions of gold and silver be tendered within fourteen days to agents of the Government of the United States for compensation at the official price, in the legal tender of the Government. All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed, pending action in the due course of the law. All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver within the borders of the United States and its territories, and all foreign exchange transactions or movements of such metals across the border are herby prohibited. "Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe-deposit box to store them is known to the Government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of The Internal Revenue Service. "By lawful Order given this day, the President of the United States."

In this act of theft, the citizens of the United States of America were compensated at the "official" price of $20.67 an ounce. That was the "official" price of gold for 97 years. Following the confiscation, the dollar was devalued by 40% - and the price of gold was revalued upwards to $35 an ounce.

Under the authority of the Emergency Banking Relief Act, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 6102 which allowed the Government to confiscate all privately owned gold in the United States. The owners would be repaid in paper dollars whether they like it or not.

Could you tell me where you found the text you used. All the links I have found so far do not discuss safety deposit boxes. Thanks.

paker
29th March 2008, 07:17
I've never heard of holding silver being illegal at any time.

Kelly
29th March 2008, 08:28
Well, I thought I copied and filed the article I pulled that paragraph from, but I sure can't find it in my hard drive, which is in desparate need of some housecleaning.

But here is another article showing the same thing.

http://www.reformation.org/roosevelt_confiscates_gold.html

If you do a search on "Roosevelt confiscates gold", you'll pull up a ton of articles talking about it. I think he primarily confiscated gold rather than silver, but the word "silver" certainly appears in his executive order as well.

It seems to me that Roosevelts executive order is actually unconstitutional. The constitution gives the goevernment the right to print its own money (rather than go thru the Fed) and requeres that money to be backed by silver and gold. So I've got to wonder about executive orders (and not just Roosevelt's orders) which basically undermine the constitution.

Kennedy attempted to overwrite Roosevelts executive orders with his executive order 11110, and as a result issued "silver certificates" backed by silver. But "they" (whoever they is) killed him soon after he did that, and then the Fed went about taking Kennedy's silver certificates out of cirrculation.

The gold Roosevelt confiscated supposedly went into Fort Knox. But nobody knows if it is even still there anymore. Fort Knox now refuses to be audited, and hasn't been audited since 1956 (or I think that was the year of the last audit but don't quote me).

I have watched a couple of videos and read several articles saying that the Fed actually had the balls to remove the gold from Fort Knox as payment on part of the interest "we the people" now owe the Fed on our national debt for printing money out of nothing.

But hell if I know if that's the truth. There is no way of knowing for certain without an audit of Fort Knox whether the gold Roosevelt confiscated is still there or not.

Personally, I think it's about time we audit Fort Knox AND the damn Fed.

I can't find the article talking about Safety Deposit boxes, but there has to be a ton of them out there. In 1933, as the result of Roosevelts order, the Fed's goon squad absolutely did go through people's safety deposit boxes and took their gold.

I abjectly disagree with what happened, but at the same time, the government doesn't seem to be paying much attention to what I think is right or wrong.

From my point of view, if you are going to hold physical silver and gold, for your own protection, don't put it in the bank's safety deposit boxes. Hide it, and hide it well. And don't tell anybody what you've got.

BC
30th March 2008, 02:08
It seems to me that Roosevelts executive order is actually unconstitutional. The constitution gives the goevernment the right to print its own money (rather than go thru the Fed) and requeres that money to be backed by silver and gold. So I've got to wonder about executive orders (and not just Roosevelt's orders) which basically undermine the constitution.

Kennedy attempted to overwrite Roosevelts executive orders with his executive order 11110, and as a result issued "silver certificates" backed by silver. But "they" (whoever they is) killed him soon after he did that, and then the Fed went about taking Kennedy's silver certificates out of cirrculation.

I didn't know the gold confiscation was done because of a "executive order".

I had always been told that executive orders were wrote to direct executive officers in the administration and never made as laws that regular citizens had to obey. I guess they started making them and never were questioned about their legality so they kept expanding their scope until we are where we are now with a president bypassing the useless congress and making his own laws.


.

fansubs_ca
31st March 2008, 02:13
There are five states currantly without any sales tax; Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon

In North Dakota any coins with a "legal tender" value (of any nation I
think) are exempt from sales tax. So this would exempt Eagles, Maples,
Kruggerands and my favourite, junk silver (90% U.S. or 80% CDN, etc.).
Usually I buy U.S. junk silver because my North Dakota dealer is out
of the Canadian stuff most of the time and the spread is too big on
Canadian stuff most other places...thus probably why he's frequently
out. ;)

Bars or privately minted rounds of Precious Metals however are taxable
in North Dakota currently.

One nice thing about North Dakota even if an item is taxable Canadians
subject to certain minimum purchases and having a certain minimum
total of reciepts during the course of a year can get a rebate of any
North Dakota Sales tax they pay on items they take out of the state.
(So services and items for immediate consumption like restraunt meals
are non-rebateable.) For Precious Metals it's easier to stick to the
stuff that's exempt from the beginning though. ^_-

I think the rebate is also available to residents of states like Oregon
where there is no sales tax, though that may have changed over the
years.

I can't remember the rules for Minnesota at the moment.

Here in Canada it's interesting. Bullion is GST (Federal "Goods and
Services Tax") exempt regardless of whether it's a coin or a bar.
For Manitoba in particular coins are subject to 7% PST (Provincial
Sales Tax) but bars are exempt. Thus I've taken to calling it the
"round things tax". ;) So therefore I buy no shiney round things
from any dealer in my own province, Kitco in Quebec seems the
best bet for Maples. (Hopefully they aren't out too long.)

Also regarding mail order the rule seems to be that anything that a
mail order dealer ships out of state they don't have to collect their
state sales tax on. Of course this means people in state A can
order from the dealers in state B and the people in state B can
order from the dealers in state A and none pay state sales tax
even though both states might have sales tax. This seems to also
apply between Canadian Provinces. Items can get dinged for PST
of the province it comes into by Canada Customes if it's from
outside Canada but not if it comes from annother province. Thus
encouraging inter-provincial mail order.

Alberta has no PST at all so anything bought over the counter
there is no tax. I saw one dealer there that I can't order from
though because they own or are owned by a Manitoba company
with a store here so they have to charge Manitoba PST when
shipping into Manitoba. Were it not for this their Alberta location
would be ideal in that they wouldn't have to bother with PST
for local or mail order. So effectively their Manitoba store
probably hurts their sales in Manitoba at least on bullion, maybe
they make it up in numismatics where seeing the coin before
you buy is a bigger factor? :???: