View Full Version : Help with buying bullions from Monex

19th March 2008, 03:17
Hello guys, this is my first post. I'm glad to have found this forum, turns out to be some potentially world changing information here.

After having done about 2 months' worht of reading, I've just bought 600 oz. of silver (600 Silver Eagles) from Monex on Monday. This was my first purchase, and being that I live rather close to their location, I have requested to pick up the coins instead of having them mail them to me. But the guy I bought them from told me they won't be available for 3 weeks!? WTF? Is this normal?

So my questions are,

1. Should I perform some kind of test when I go pick up my coins? I mean, how would I know they're real? All 600 of them?

2. I'll be buying, I hope, another ~$60,000 worth of silver, bullions this time, in the coming month. Who should I buy from? Monex? Can somebody pleaes recommend me a good and TRUSWORTHY source?

3. Last question (thanks for reading this far). I read on Monex's website that they have 3 different "brands" of 100 oz. silver bars. An Johnson and Mathey, an Englehardt, and something else. To me, silver is silver, do brands make a difference? Do they differ in price?

Thanks ahead of time for reading, and hopefully answering, my questions. I really apperciate any advice the forum can give me, as I really want to get as much info as I can before my big purchase coming up. Thanks guys.

God Bless.

19th March 2008, 03:20
Sorry, last question, for real this time.

I know no man can predict the market, particularly given the manipulation of the market (I've read here). But, having said that, can anyone please give me a reason, any reason, why silver's spot price will not be above $25 by February of next year? Thanks for the help.

19th March 2008, 06:00
No help forthcoming, I guess. Come on, share your kindness with a fellow silver bug.

19th March 2008, 06:37
Be patient! This site is not as widely visited compared with the GIM (gold is money) forum.

Firstly nobody knows for sure what the price of silver or any other commodity will be in the future...so don't go looking for it.

Secondly, if you are acquiring silver for short term holdings you expect to make money on then you are putting yourself at risk...just like you would be doing by obtaining stocks or other "paper" commodities.

Most people on this forum and similiar forums like GIM and Kitco, acquire metals as a long-term store of real weath for security in this highly volitile economic, social, and political world in which we are now living. They also acquire metals as a hedge aganist inflation...historically when the economy, stock, and other markets move south, gold and silver move north.

Re brands of bars, stick with Englehard and Johnson Matthey. In the U.S. Sunshine is also a good name...but for world wide ease of liquidity, stick with Englehard and Johnson Matthey. Always remember that unlike government stuck coins, private mint/refinery items like bars can only be authenticated by drilling, melting and assaying them. This process entails time and costs, and will be an accelerating problem as the cost of silver climbs.

For this reason most people who are not wealth/large acquirers, limit their bars to a max of 10 oz. They avoid 50 and larger oz. bars because they are not as easily traded due to their cost...and view this also as an accelerating problem as the cost of silver climbs.

I have never personally conducted business with MONEX but have heard other people recommend they be avoided.

I wouldn't worry about the authencitiy of the Silver Eagles you receive...they are exceedingly difficult to couterfiet. You can check their quality by dropping them on a hard surface or by balancing one on the tip of a finger and gently striking it with another coin or other hard object. Silver has a VERY distinct "ringing" sound to it that isn't heard with any other metal.

If you want to check other large online dealers that reportedly are very reputable, look at APMEX (American Precious Metals Exchange), Bullion Direct, CMI (Certified Mint Inc.), Colorado Gold, Guidance Corporation, Kitco, and for gold: Gold Only. There are others. I would avoid Tulving.

Which ever dealer(s) you choose, make sure you invest time and effort in "shoping" to find the best price on the forms you are looking for. Prices always vary from dealer to dealer and with the same dealer from time to time. And don't forget to factor in shipping and insurance to figure your total cost.

If you don't want to create (for gobermint or whoever) an eternal "paper" or "e"-trail record to your holdings, then the best thing to do is to do business with local dealers and with dealers who sell at area coin shows. Ocassionally coin/bullion dealers also set up at gun shows so check them out. Cash 'n carry out the door: often no sales taxes, no name, no address = no paper or "e"-trail to you and the metals you are holding....or fact that you have an awareness and interest in PM's.

With local and show dealers you will be doing business in smaller quantities, but also getting better prices plus no shipping and insurance. Once you establish a good relationship with some dealers with whom you are comfortable doing business with and who are comfortable doing business with you, you can ask them to locate and get most anything you want and in any quantity. They just need assurance of a quick turnover. Specifically, that you will take delivery so they aren't left holding them.

Hope this helps.

19th March 2008, 07:02
Goldminer, I appreciate your advice VERY much. Thanks from the bottom of my heart, pal.

When you say that you have heard Monex is to be avoided, what bad things have you heard about? I only bought 600 eagles from them because they live about 30 minutes from where I live, so I can go and pick up my silver in person. I don't trust deliveries, especially when they're not insured.

Thank you for recommending other places for me to buy from, BUT I'm thinking about buying as much as $55,000 more silver within the month. Isn't that a lot to ship? What kind of a crate will the silver arrive in? I would really much prefer to pick up my silver on my own.

For the reason that I'll be buying alot, I don't think any local coin dealer can accomodate my needs. And I also enjoy paying within 0.5% of spot price for my bullions, something I doubt any local dealers can offer me.

There MUST be somebody on this forum who has, or is about to make some large silver purchase and is planning to take delivery of it. How are you doing it?!

19th March 2008, 07:05
Goldminer, when you say that Eagles are very hard to fake, does the same apply to the 100 oz bars?

I'm asking because for the larger purchase, I may need to take those 100 oz Johnson and Matthey bars or Englehardt bars over the silver eagles. Any of those fake bars circulating that I should be wary of? Thanks again for helping me.

Edit: I just re-read your reply to me, and realized you already adviced me to buy 10 oz bars. What brand of 10 oz. silver bars would you recommend? On Monex's website, I only see 100 oz bars and 1,000 oz bars, no 10 oz bars.

19th March 2008, 07:13
Goldminer, one last question.

When you say that large bars can only be authenticated by drilling or assaying, how is the assaying done? And wouldn't 10 oz. bars have to be drilled or assayed for authentication also?

Sorry for the tons of newb questions, but I really am making the conversion from paper money to silver and gold, and have virtually NEVER dealt with silver and gold in my life before.

19th March 2008, 11:21
:Dinvestmentraities is good, go to www.GATA.org, lots of info there, nwtmint.com, always buy on big dips, learn before you jump, if you bought monday, look at what you would have payed today,3/19/08.....

19th March 2008, 11:46
While I said recently I would NOT buy my whole position in silver all at once while silver hovered around $20 to $21 an ounce, TODAY I see the price is right around $18 an ounce and TODAY I'd change my mind and spend EVERY NICKEL I had to purchase silver. Or at least a high percentage of it.
There's also some buys in SILVER STOCKS TODAY. SLW presently at $16.64 THAT'S A BUY!! And CEF, The Central Fund of Canada is going for $13.18 another GREAT BUY!
Likewise with gold. An American Gold Eagle out the door for UNDER $1000!!
I hope you're in the mood TO BUY SOMETHING!!!

19th March 2008, 14:03
The most widely recognized silver bars are produced by Englehard and Johnson Matthey (JM), and the most widely recognized gold bars are produced by Pamp Swisse, Credit Swisse, Engelhard, and Johnson Matthey (JM).

If you ever choose to acquire any gold bars make sure they are produced by one of the above named businesses, AND ARE ACCOMPANIED BY A SEALED "ASSAY CARD" that reports the producer's name and serial number of the bar.

That said, there are other recognized name brand bars but they are not the "pick of the litter" that the above name bars are. In the U.S. (and I speak for the US because that's where I live) other good (well recognized)name bars include Sunshine, Wall Street Mint (WWM), Silvertowne, Pan American (Pan AM), etc.

Most little guy's who acquire silver to hold and perserve wealth, avoid 100 oz. bars. Larger traders handle hundreds and hundreds (& probably thousands) of them. 100 oz. bars world over, are the most widely traded form of silver. They reportedly stack & store well.

Little guys avoid them because they are not as liquid for a little guy as a smaller oz. bar, and by this I mean they carry such a comparatively large value that there are many fewer people walking around who have that kind of money to invest in a bar of that size...and more importantly, will be much more so down the road when (as many of us believe) the price of silver climbs to $200.00-plus per oz. With a 100 oz. bar you're talking about one h...of a lot of money.

If you want to acquire and hold 100 oz. bars that's fine. It's just that many small guys don't. They want the more easily traded 10 & 1 oz. bars & "rounds", or non-collector/common date government struck 1. oz. bullion coins like U.S. Eagles & Canadian Maple Leafs.

You should also know that back in the 80's when silver hit about USD$50.00 per oz., there were an unknown number of 100 oz. Engelhard bars discovered that had been drilled in three places from one end removing about 50 oz. of silver, and then refilled with lead (the weight of which is VERY close to silver). Because lead has such a lower melting point then silver it was a simple matter to fill the holes up with lead and then apply a coat of silver over the end and polish out any marks. The only way to identify one of these bars by report, is to xray it or cut or drill it to see if it contains lead. I will try to post a picture of one of these bars am not sure I know how to do it here.

Anyway, you will probably never see one of these bars but one never knows because nobody ever discovered how many 100 oz. Englehard bars had been altered, had been discovered, and/or knows how many are still out there today...or how many will be altered as the price of silver again climbs....and a little guy holder just can't afford to take the chance - particularly when s/he doesn't need to since 10 oz. bars are more desirable/liquid to hold anyway.

Another thing you might want to think about as information if you don't
know it, is that in the U.S. is the $10,000.00 and over cash limit that is required by law that dealers report to the gobermint. The amount has nothing to do with metals but rather any cash transaction. The law was passed to help identify & curtail illegal drug and other criminal money laundering. When you spend $10K or over you can bet that the government has been quickly made aware that you exchanged the money for something...and what that something was.

Re assaying: it's a rather expensive process that involves melting a good sample of the item and testing it to determine it's precise purity.

Re 10 oz. bars: Yes, there is a danger of 10 oz. bars being drilled and "filled" in the future when silver gets to a price level that will make the time and effort profitable to crooks. For this reason many little guy holders prefer from private mints, acquiring 1 oz. size rounds and bars...and of these, the "coin" types with a reeded edge is prefered because a reeded edge is very difficult to effectively re-fabricate after altering the item.

Re you 5% premium on bullion purchases you need to know that many local dealers trade at spot with "good" customers, and the customer doesn't have to add shipping & insurance. Dealers who sell at spot can do so because they buy below spot and operate on a smaller "spread" (the difference of the amount they pay and sell an item for). In addition, you might be surprised to learn that some local dealers transact @ $50-$60,000 dollar levels every day. Don't underestimate them and their business. The only difference between many, many local dealers and online businesses like Monex, Kitco, AMPEX, Tulving, CMI, Colorado Gold, etc., is that the local dealer doesn't have the overhead/operating costs that are incurred in doing good sized online business....and so don't have to charge the customer extra to pay for it.

If you don't hear or believe anything else I've said on this forum, believe me when I tell you that you need to rethink your belief about how best to do your PM business. Online business aren't "god" and compared to local and coin show dealers, they have a serious downside for the folks who do business with them.

19th March 2008, 15:23
hello Daveman;
Try bordergold, they have an office in new york and canada. They have 100 oz JM and a-mark rounds (1oz), which i think is a good way to go, because when silver does rise, refiners will take 100 ozers, and you have some smaller, for possible trade, quick sales etc. They deliver twice weekly and it is insured, you pay shipping, no 3week wait times. God Bless.

19th March 2008, 17:12
Thanks alot for the help guys, I needed the information.

I just feel a little unsafe in that I'll be buying, what I think, will be a large amount of silver, around $60,000 or so. And any dealer who I buy it from will see that as a chance to sneak in a couple of funny bars in the mix.

I mean, $60,000 is what, 3000 ounces? How many pounds is that? How would I even take delivery of that large amount? Will the silver arrive in 3 crates or something?

19th March 2008, 19:31
One bite at a time.
30- 100 ounce bars is not that big of a deal. Takes up less space than a file drawer.
Think about it. That ain't too much. I have a few Monster Boxes of Eagles and they are a bit bigger than the 5- 100 ounce bars would be, but they are easier to handle in that you don't have to grab 5 bars to move 500 ounces. Just one box. Or in your case, 6 boxes.

I mean, $60,000 is what, 3000 ounces? How many pounds is that? How would I even take delivery of that large amount? Will the silver arrive in 3 crates or something?

19th March 2008, 22:35
to followup on what Goldminer said i can highly recommend both
apmex.com and onlygold.com

but if i lived close to monex like you do i would just call them and ask them what they have in stock that you can purchase and pickup

everything Goldminer said rings of experience and is right on target

19th March 2008, 22:37
Thanks man.

So basically, what I'm reading from yall is that nobody is worried about getting any fake led bars in their purchase at this stage of the game? Is it because silver price is still not high enough to justify any fraud yet?