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View Full Version : Scream "MARKET MANIPULATION!" Now!!!



Kelly
18th March 2008, 12:05
Most of us have heard Ted Butler, Jason Hommel and others openly declare they are certain that the silver market is being manipulated down by the financial institutions and the Commercials. This January 15th Ted Butler wrote…

"The extreme concentrated short position in gold and silver is the prime reason to be alert to an attempt for a vicious and engineered sell-off by the shorts. It also will be the reason for a market melt up, if the shorts lose control. There is nothing good one can say about the concentrated short position. It smells to high heaven and this is why I write about it so frequently. It is obvious that neither the regulators at the CFTC nor the Exchange have lifted a finger to rectify this dangerous situation, in spite of repeated public petitions." http://www.investmentrarities.com/01-15-08.html

In the past, though thousands upon thousands have written to the CFTC complaining of market manipulation, the CFTC has always lamely laughed it off saying they "don't see any indication of manipulation."

Well, that's B.S. and THIS TIME maybe, just MAYBE we can prove it! If there is any proof of Market Manipulation, it is in yesterday's and today's Kitco charts. Go here and take a look at this thing! http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

Also, use your brain and COPY THIS CHART TO YOUR HARD DRIVE! DO IT NOW!

The Blue Line is the Asian Markets buying up silver once they heard that Bear Stearns went belly up and J. P. Morgan was getting the entire company for $2 a share. Obviously, the Hong Kong market had the brains to figure out the American dollar was tanking and gold and silver was the way to go. Sunday night the Asian Market drove the price of silver up from Friday's close at $20.67 to $21.34 before the London Market hit and started to drive the prices down (AM red line). Least ye forget, dear friends, while it is true that J.P. Morgan (i.e. Chase Manhattan Bank owned by the Rockefellers and the Morgans) own the lion's share of the American side of the privately owned banks that own the Federal Reserve, the rest of the Banking system that owns the Fed operates out of Europe and plays their side of the Fed game through the London Market.

Between the Fed manipulated London Market and the Fed manipulated American Market we saw the price of silver go from it's high of 21.34 to yesterdays low of about $19.70 in the space of around five hours.

Now the CFTC could try to weasel their way out of this one too HAD THIS BEEN A NORMAL TRADING DAY, but this was NOT a normal trading day; This was the next trading day after the Bear Stearns collapse, and the silver market was primed to shoot up to at least $23 dollars because EVERYBODY who has their money in the stock market is scared poopless, and they are for damned sure ready to put their money in silver and gold, or so said practically every national news broadcast on the tube yesterday.

If there is any BLATANT PROOF that the American Banking institutions are collectively shorting the silver market and using the Fed Bail Out Bucks (FBOB as the Mogambo would say) to manipulate the price of silver, IT IS IN THIS KITCO CHART!

I repeat, copy today's chart to your hard drive! Then write letters to the CFTC, NYMEX, your representatives and senators and every loud mouthed talking head you can think of and show them the proof!

Scream bloody murder about it. Tell Lou Dobbs the truth; he's got a big mouth. The financial institutions are using the FBOB (Fed Bail Out Bucks) to manipulate gold and especially silver down; they sure as hell are not using that money to provide loans to Americans loosing their homes.

They are using the Fed Bail Out Bucks to blatantly perpetuate the Biggest Game of Economic Blackmail against the American People I have ever seen!

Furthermore, the Fed's intent to manipulate the precious metals market is so danged openly blatant and extreme they have even dared to spit in the eye of the Chinese who graciously (and perhaps stupidly) bought our national debt.

The Fed should NOT play those kinds of games with the Chinese because those folks just may know how to play the game better than the Fed does.

Today the market is a joke. Intuitively, after this week's very grim news, silver should be skyrocketing, yet for every up tick there is a tick down. The chart says it all! As I write they have manipulated the market down from the Sunday night high of $21.34 to $19.92. And they were all stupid enough to make this kind of open play when the silver charts should have skyrocketed and we all know that's what should have happened. Write the CFTC, show them the chart as proof and scream bloody murder!

Albin
18th March 2008, 15:38
I was watching the action today right after the fed meeting, and I think there were some *big* guns waiting and ready to hit the market after the news.

Within seconds after the announcement, huge, huge downward pressure appeared. The Siver ETF I was watching went from 198 to 196 in the blink of an eye. I got stopped out at 197 and in about 15 minutes it went from 196 back up to 199... Look at this chart and what happens right at 2:15pm huge swings -

http://i31.tinypic.com/jhv59v.png

Someone made a bundle working that paddle I think.. short at 198.. buy at 196.. short again at 198+ - look at the huge volumes there. After that...steadily down for the rest of the day.

I partly think that a 3/4 point reduction was put there to confuse investors because mostly everyone was thinking either 100 or 50 basis points... I was thrown for a little loop at 3/4 myself.. but in the end, still good news for us.

I almost thought Gold would hold 1000, so I bought back in at the same place my stop went off (197).. and from there more down pressure. I could have nicely waited and gotten a much better entry point today or possibly tomorrow.

Fed interest rate cuts almost always have a postive effect on commodities long term (more money flows into the system causing inflation), so I didn't set another stop, holding overnight, and I am hoping that Gold will hold it's levels.

I'm down 2.5% now and will have to consider what stop I want next, if any. I envy those of you who entered a long time ago.. if I had, I wouldn't even be concerned about today's events and would just think about the macro picture.

Had I played it smarter this week, I would have just waited until after the fed meeting events shook out. Despite the facts that Gold and Silver should be hitting the moon after the events of the past week I should have known the Fed would fight it with everything they've got and there would be some sort of pullback.

In any event, today's action did not wreck the chart. Support levels are still there, as is the upwards momentum. We also have inflation on our side, and the ongoing bull market in gold/silver. I'm really hoping for some stability and bounce back tomorrow, because if I take another hit like today and end up over 5% down, I'll be pretty depressed.

Not to mention that most of the people are ignoring the fact that the Gold:Silver ratio is still about 50:1 .. very low.

I'm going through a tough time right now - the guys behind these world banks have so much money.. how the hell are we going to win this in the long run? Especially when we keep electing morons as President.

Ron Paul is the only guy who has a clue (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_50/b4062021769214.htm).

"You know this idea that we can create a secret bank and they manage things and rarely tell us—or Congress or the Executive Branch—what they're really doing, there's a problem there. I can't even go to a monetary policy board meeting of the Federal Reserve, and I'm on the Banking Committee of the U.S. Congress. I want open government, and certainly the Fed ought to be open. But it's an institution that really shouldn't exist. [Its financing] allows Big Government to get bigger without being responsible. And that's why we have runaway spending for both warfare and welfare. "

prahudka
18th March 2008, 16:20
And they were all stupid enough to make this kind of open play when the silver charts should have skyrocketed and we all know that's what should have happened. Write the CFTC, show them the chart as proof and scream bloody murder!

Well, yeah, but .....

Manipulation usually aggravates a difficult situation. LIke taking steroids for auto-immune problems or poison to treat cancer. In the case of the PPT, they are getting some short term propping activity on whatever their favorite stocks happen to be, and thus helping the DOW. But, they are also teaching these companies to be fat and slow and unable to respond to real market conditions. They are teaching the people to expect to see stocks propped up, meaning the panic will be just that much more desperate in the end.

Depressing silver prices is suppressing market conditions that might actually bring more silver to market. Manipulation may aggravate the eventual supply panic and add rocket fuel to the mix.

As far as the COT is concerned, if you can keep them honest, God bless you.

TTAZZMAN
18th March 2008, 18:22
Never forget there is always a opposite side of every trade

Kelly
18th March 2008, 20:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Never forget there is always a opposite side of every trade

Of course there is an opposite action in every futures trade. If they short silver by selling a futures contract, they are going to have to buy a contract sooner or later. But if you've got a cartell of 300 big players selling short on silver, it's not too hard to agree to sell their short contracts all at the same time (ever heard of cell phones and text messaging?) agreeing not to buy back any contracts until the momentum players who have gone long get scared and decide they'd better sell too to save their butts. The short sell cartell agrees when the play is going to be made, makes the play all at the same time, and they agree to not buy back a single contract until the move goes straight down to their desired price before they buy back, and they buy back in each move at rock bottom. The big players are rigging the market.

This type of cartell play is supposed to be illegal; it's called MARKET MANIPULATION! There are laws against it and for good reason.

Look you guys, people are getting scared out there and well they should; the economy is in shambles. The little guy with only a few grand in the bank is NOT going to invest in gold; he's going to invest in silver, and the sharks shorting the silver market are just waiting for that to happen.

I don't want you, me or anybody else out there who is simply trying to protect their family to get fleeced by the short sell silver cartell. And those pigs are going to keep it up until we catch them red-handed and can prove it. We need to put them out of business. To do that, we have to be smart enough to catch them in the act.

It's that simple.

SilverTrees
18th March 2008, 21:09
I would like the price to be manipulated lower and lower so i can keep buying and buying....it's only a matter of time before the silver rocket launches into orbit!!!

chux03
18th March 2008, 21:42
I would like the price to be manipulated lower and lower so i can keep buying and buying....it's only a matter of time before the silver rocket launches into orbit!!!


There ya go...spoken like a TRUE CAPITALIST!!

Soon as the next bad news about a bank failure hits the airwaves, silver IS GOING UP and there'll be NOTHING the "concentrated shorts" can do except to TRY and cover. Last I read from Ted Butler or Jason Hommel, they'll need almost 400 MILLION OUNCES to accomplish that. As that's almost a year of production, I'm reminded of the old trader's saying about commodities that I found on Jason Hommel's website recently:

He who trades what isn't his'in, pays it back or goes to prison...

Once they default (and go to Hell) silver will make it's moonshot. So...if you don't own any silver, you better get going. And if you do, go buy some more!!

Kelly
18th March 2008, 22:00
He who trades what isn't his'in, pays it back or goes to prison...

Do they? Or do they get bailed out by the Fed?

Today, "He who trades what isn't his'in" is the investment banker who can't make his margin calls.

TTAZZMAN
19th March 2008, 00:02
I dont know how the Fed can bail out someone with $ to someone who wants bullion...

this latest Ted Butler article mirrors my thoughts on the manipulation process explaining why its all about physical

http://news.silverseek.com/TedButler/1205864199.php

Daveman
19th March 2008, 05:26
If it is as you guys said, that the ONLY way to force the the shorts (I'm not really sure the technical meaning of that, other than they're selling silver they don't have) to cover (don't really know the meaning of that either, but to buy silver) their shorts is to take silver out of the market when we buy them, then only large AND powerful buyers will have that power.

I'm thinking foreign governments like China, Russia, or Mideast countries.

I don't understand why they haven't bought silver yet. They have trillions of USD assests that are getting vanquished, and they know that they can buy silver on the cheap right now, comparing to what silver prices will be after their HUGE purchase have driven the silver price.

Are they afraid of the showdown with Anglo Saxon interests when calling their BS? Are they waiting until they're militarily strong enough to enforce their contractual claim on goods their USD notes can buy?

elixer
19th March 2008, 05:37
There is a parallel thread running besied this one which is very similar. This was my last post on it:

I have never heard of Monex but it sounds like they are straight and the silver would be authentic. However they would be a rare company amidst many others that use the certificate program as the basis for their business.
It is these businesses that should be targeted with a Ghandhi like resistance where silver certificate holders simply ask for silver bullion for their certificates, by paying a 1-3% smelting fee they would fairly rapidly triple the price of their silver stocks because the market cannot support the transformation of certificates into bullion.
Ghandi collapsed the British empire in India through peaceful resistance, the small holders of silver in unison could collapse the largest silver short cartel All it requires is that they act together - after all this is all the cartels do and rely on the market to be scattered to resist their control.
A couple of informative videos on UTube, an email campaign through all the stock forums, threads on silver sites, etc, etc..
Anyone think this is possible????????????
I mean if it was presented to the punters, who wouldn't want to triple their money for a 1-3% smelting fee?

samsung82
19th March 2008, 09:03
Of course there is an opposite action in every futures trade. If they short silver by selling a futures contract, they are going to have to buy a contract sooner or later. But if you've got a cartell of 300 big players selling short on silver, it's not too hard to agree to sell their short contracts all at the same time (ever heard of cell phones and text messaging?) agreeing not to buy back any contracts until the momentum players who have gone long get scared and decide they'd better sell too to save their butts. The short sell cartell agrees when the play is going to be made, makes the play all at the same time, and they agree to not buy back a single contract until the move goes straight down to their desired price before they buy back, and they buy back in each move at rock bottom. The big players are rigging the market.

This type of cartell play is supposed to be illegal; it's called MARKET MANIPULATION! There are laws against it and for good reason.

Look you guys, people are getting scared out there and well they should; the economy is in shambles. The little guy with only a few grand in the bank is NOT going to invest in gold; he's going to invest in silver, and the sharks shorting the silver market are just waiting for that to happen.

I don't want you, me or anybody else out there who is simply trying to protect their family to get fleeced by the short sell silver cartell. And those pigs are going to keep it up until we catch them red-handed and can prove it. We need to put them out of business. To do that, we have to be smart enough to catch them in the act.

It's that simple.

Where is this Cartell and why don't they short the oil futures?

Albin
19th March 2008, 10:06
I got killed in this morning's action.

My cost basis in the ETF was 199. I figured the global powers would push us back up last night back towards 20, and they did - so I was about even until the Central Banks took over.

The London markets and then New York just killed the price this morning. I can't trade the ETF until market opens, and by then, they'd crushed the price down towards 191 which I figured might hold.. it didn't.

I got stopped out at 187 and I'm now down 8%....

I also missed the bounce at 181, which I thought would be a reasonable entry point that I'd be happy holding long term.

Crappy, crappy morning for me. I really played it badly and should have let my stop at 197 get me out yesterday instead of holding overnight.. 8 grand loss.... let's hope I find a nice entry point in this dip and make the $$ back in the long run many times over.

I may just decide to cost average in over the short-term instead of trying to time it. I would like to see where gold and silver close today and open tomorrow before doing anything, however. Looking at the charts, it appears possible we'll hit against that support level around 18, and if that fails, down to 17 and change depending on what happens next.

prahudka
19th March 2008, 10:50
Where is this Cartell and why don't they short the oil futures?

That is a much bigger market. There is no COT either, but OPEC instead. Big difference.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 12:05
Where is this Cartell and why don't they short the oil futures?


They don't short the oil futures like they short silver and gold for one and only one reason. Oil is not an alternative currency. You can't stash a $10,000 investment in oil in a bank deposit box, lock it in your house safe or bury it your back yard. Who can take physical delivery of oil but the oil refiners?

Silver and gold are not in the same category. I am personally convinced that the Cartel shorting silver and gold is a Fed Working Group intent upon "punishing" anybody who dares take their money out of dollars to put it in silver and gold.

The Asians buying silver, in particular, appear to me to be manufacturers who are merely placing single buy-sell contracts for silver in order to lock in the price of the silver they need to meet their monthly manufacturing needs.

If you "follow the money" paradigm in the attempt to find out whose behind the huge shorts that have taken silver down $3 in three days, the people who stand to gain the most from that move is nobody BUT the Fed.

Single day-trading people playing the Futures market simply do not have the bucks to short silver to this extent. The Fed doesn't have to worry about covering their margin calls. They print the money.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 12:27
Hey Albin! Where are you going to get your silver charts? They show the tick size and how many contracts were sold. Can you post a similar chart for today? It'd be interesting to know how many contracts had to go short to bring the price of silver down this much.

Inquiring minds want to know...

samsung82
19th March 2008, 12:56
I have worked at the CME and the CBOE and i will tell you that a trader does not care what he is trading. A short is a short and a buy is a buy they don't care if it is hogs, oil, silver or pizza they will trade it based on supply and demand. That is all.

Albin
19th March 2008, 13:29
Hey Albin! Where are you going to get your silver charts? They show the tick size and how many contracts were sold. Can you post a similar chart for today? It'd be interesting to know how many contracts had to go short to bring the price of silver down this much.

Inquiring minds want to know...

I'm creating them based on raw data feed for the SLV ETF using QuoteTracker. When today is over, I'll post the chart. Huge buys right after 1:30 when the price was depressed, so we may get support around today's lows... or it may just be the shorts covering (and making a bundle) from this morning.

The chart is not great, as it only takes the data from SLV ETF - so what happens outside of that is not really visible to me.

I'm coming to realize that I don't really have enough information coming in about silver to make really solid intra-day analysis. It would be spectacular to day trade this baby, but I'm not good enough and it's proven too risky.

The ETF lags behind the spot quotes by a bit, and I can't get streaming spot quotes to analyze movement. By the time I know what's going on, it's five minutes too late - and that's enough. The big guns have an advantage over me if I try to trade the way I have been, so I'm going to adjust my strategy.

At this point I don't think (or want to) catch this falling knife, and over the recent past the overseas markets have been very conservative (and realistic) with their trading corrections, so it's entirely possible we have another down pressure day tomorrow with significant downside after a modest upside overnight. I'm really curious to see how overseas reacts to today's action.

We might see a big bounce off support. We're still in lockstep with Gold ratio - and if you look at this chart, you'll see there is actually a gap to fill in the ratio between 51 and 52, so it's possible Silver drops off faster than Gold until the gap is filled.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=%24gold%3A%24silver#

We are also right at the 50 day moving average, I'm not sure if that will hold, but it may be worth a shot for me. I'm considering between now and the close if I want to buy this dip or wait..... I'm sure whatever I choose will be wrong... lol.

LETMYSILVERGO
19th March 2008, 13:31
I like DAVEMAN QUESTIONs, and I'd like an answer, if Ya'll have one.
Cheers

Albin
19th March 2008, 14:05
If it is as you guys said, that the ONLY way to force the the shorts (I'm not really sure the technical meaning of that, other than they're selling silver they don't have) to cover (don't really know the meaning of that either, but to buy silver) their shorts is to take silver out of the market when we buy them, then only large AND powerful buyers will have that power.

I'm thinking foreign governments like China, Russia, or Mideast countries.

I don't understand why they haven't bought silver yet. They have trillions of USD assests that are getting vanquished, and they know that they can buy silver on the cheap right now, comparing to what silver prices will be after their HUGE purchase have driven the silver price.

Are they afraid of the showdown with Anglo Saxon interests when calling their BS? Are they waiting until they're militarily strong enough to enforce their contractual claim on goods their USD notes can buy?

I tend to agree with Warren Buffet that they will be buying our companies and our land with the money.

http://www.fhsu.edu/econ/rterry/Trade%20Deficit.pdf

Again, this is apropos :

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and the corporations which grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.
- Thomas Jefferson

Our forefathers fought against central banks (more than once) and some won battles, but not the war. You think you own your land? You don't. Just stop paying taxes on it and see what happens. The Government can make any law they want, and if they need the banks, well.. our country is in the hands of the bankers.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 14:30
And Thomas Jefferson was right! Here are some more quotes, not from Jefferson, but they should give you a pretty good idea of what we are up against.

1. "If this mischievous financial policy, which has its' origins in North America, shall be endured down to a fixture, then that government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off its debt and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedence in the history of the world. The brains and the wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe." - Editorial in the Times of London, 1862

2. "It is advisable to do all in your power to sustain such prominent daily and weekly newspapers, especially the Agricultural and Religious press, as will oppose the Greenback issue of paper money and that you will also withhold patronage from all applicants (for loans) who are not willing to oppose the government issue of money…To repel the act creating bank notes, or to restore to circulation the government issue of money will be to provide the people with money and will therefore seriously affect our individual profits as bankers and lenders. See your congressman at once and engage him to support us, that we may control legislation." - James Buel, American Bankers Association, 1877

3. "On September 1st, 1894, we will not renew our loans under any consideration. On September 1st, we will demand our money. We will foreclose and become mortgagees in possession. We can take two-thirds of the farms west of the Mississippi as well, at our own price…Then the farmers will become tenants, as in England." - 1891 American Bankers Association Memo, recorded as testimony in the Congressional Record, April 29th, 1913

Now think about WHO just bought out Bear Stearns. JP Morgan of Chase Manhattan and Chase Manhatten is owned by the Rockefellers and Morgans who own a HUGE portion of The Fed. It ought to scare the crap out of you!

By the way, why in the heck would China be interested in keeping the price of silver down? China may not mine a whole lot of silver, but they refine nearly all the silver mined in Asia. They've got silver coming out of their ears. It's not really in their best interest to keep silver down, but they don't need to buy a ton of it because they already have tons of it. China sells silver, they don't buy it! When we see upticks in silver coming from the Hong Kong markets that is just the manufacturers locking in their price. You see single tick buys and sells and absoltuely nothing that looks like day-trader shorting games. Those games are coming only from London and New York.

If Ted Butler is correct, then he is saying that the majority of the shorting is coming from only eight traders, four of which are very, very big.

Get real people. Day Traders simply don't have the money to short silver to the point that it drops $3 in three days. To accomplish that you've got to have billions behind you.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 15:00
By the way, I have the deepest respect for most of what Ted Butler writes, but I think he is seriously barking up the wrong tree if he suspects that it is China who is manipulating the silver market by shorting it.

China doesn't need to play those kinds of games with us. May I remind all of you that it is China that now owns the lion's share of America's national debt? The Fed sold our debt to China!

If China wants to play heavy with us, all they have to do is call in the U.S. treasury bonds the Fed sold to them.

That's power!

They sure as hell don't need to short silver.

mls56
19th March 2008, 16:28
I'm creating them based on raw data feed for the SLV ETF using QuoteTracker. When today is over, I'll post the chart. Huge buys right after 1:30 when the price was depressed, so we may get support around today's lows... or it may just be the shorts covering (and making a bundle) from this morning.

The chart is not great, as it only takes the data from SLV ETF - so what happens outside of that is not really visible to me.

I'm coming to realize that I don't really have enough information coming in about silver to make really solid intra-day analysis. It would be spectacular to day trade this baby, but I'm not good enough and it's proven too risky.

The ETF lags behind the spot quotes by a bit, and I can't get streaming spot quotes to analyze movement. By the time I know what's going on, it's five minutes too late - and that's enough. The big guns have an advantage over me if I try to trade the way I have been, so I'm going to adjust my strategy.

At this point I don't think (or want to) catch this falling knife, and over the recent past the overseas markets have been very conservative (and realistic) with their trading corrections, so it's entirely possible we have another down pressure day tomorrow with significant downside after a modest upside overnight. I'm really curious to see how overseas reacts to today's action.

We might see a big bounce off support. We're still in lockstep with Gold ratio - and if you look at this chart, you'll see there is actually a gap to fill in the ratio between 51 and 52, so it's possible Silver drops off faster than Gold until the gap is filled.

http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=%24gold%3A%24silver#

We are also right at the 50 day moving average, I'm not sure if that will hold, but it may be worth a shot for me. I'm considering between now and the close if I want to buy this dip or wait..... I'm sure whatever I choose will be wrong... lol.
Albin, I did not get into the ETF game, like so many said about the silver shorts, the beast is hurt, but that is when he will hurt you the most! Phyical holdings is the only safe bet!! You buy on dips, what the Fed did was expose the shorts, I believe that to be true, I watch all the moves that Goldmans and the rest of the cartel do. Some great quotes come from www.jsmineset.com, usagold.com & GATA.org. I just heard from Foxbiz, buy Gold from a very smart man, that would not touch gold or silver before!! His very words, the Feds have cause more trouble by the Bear Stern crap, it did not say it, but he was talking of the cartel was hurt, backed in a corner & all hell is about to hit the fan. Good Luck

Daveman
19th March 2008, 17:01
I tend to agree with Warren Buffet that they will be buying our companies and our land with the money.

Why? American companies are as worthless as America is.

And this isn't a deragatory statement, but purely a financial and economic one. Think about.

As far as land is concerned, can the Chinese, or the Japanese, carry back the land they bought? Don't be naive, land can't be bought by anybody else but those living on it.

The only thing they could want are resources that CAN BE SECURED (be reallocated to their territory). Oil, gold, silver, copper, aluminum? What else am I missing?

SilverTrees
19th March 2008, 17:20
...nickel,aluminum,steel,wheat,corn,food......

Daveman
19th March 2008, 17:27
I still think that just about the only way to break the Feds (I think it's the Feds) manipulation of the silver market would be the other governments intervening.

No private investor(s) has what it takes, either money, connection, or power, to challenge the Fed, particularly if the Fed has decided it will continue to print money to do what it wants. Only some soverign wealth funds banding together has a chance. Nothing more, but a chance.

Ultimately, this may come down to what it has always came down to: force.

Albin
19th March 2008, 17:47
As far as land is concerned, can the Chinese, or the Japanese, carry back the land they bought? Don't be naive, land can't be bought by anybody else but those living on it.

No, but they could certainly charge rent for those living on it, or perhaps they buy land which can be mined and pay us inflated dollars to work on it...

There are a lot of possible outcomes for our future, but in one scenerio the central banks "win" and keep the price of gold and silver suppressed.. everyone uses digital credits or some new World Notes for currency.

The banks own the land of the world along with the mines and natural resources (and the water supplies), or buy all the silver and gold at their depressed prices over the years. Let's face it, the people actually *holding* silver is probably trivial compared to what big and powerful people actually have (or could get if they wanted).

There are some good scenarios where the central banks go away, but I doubt that's going to happen because most people don't have an idea what's going on. I barely have a clue, and it's enough to really scare me.

They say Warren Buffett is the richest man in the world now... well, I sincerely doubt it.

Daveman
19th March 2008, 17:55
There are a lot of possible outcomes for our future, but in one scenerio the central banks "win" and keep the price of gold and silver suppressed.. everyone uses digital credits or some new World Notes for currency.

If the Fed does have the power to do that, then the price of silver will NEVER EVER go up. Everybody in this forum has lost their bet. We should all go sell our silver for what it's worth now and cut our losses.

The one and single assumption of us buying silver is, and I would think, had always been, that the Fed will loose in this game. That the Fed will be beaten by either 1.) the market 2.) foreign governments or 3.) both.
Only then, can the price of silver be allowed to rise to anywhere near where it should be.

IF the Fed's manipulation cannot be forcibly broken, then despite all of Ted Butler's wonderfully written essays, the market force simply DOES NOT HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO BREAK THE HOLD OF THE FED.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 22:06
Daveman, digital credits are a very real probability in our future.

But that will not make our silver worthless. Please don't think that. If digital credits come to pass, and there is certainly a lot of talk about it, then you must remember that there are a whole lot of people out there who will either refuse to trade in digital credits or who simply don't accumulate them because they can't get or don't have a job. If that happens, there will be a huge underground market because people will have to stay alive one way or another. Forms of barter will certainly come back.

But if there is any underground currancy that will reign supreme should those dark days ever come to pass, it will be silver and it will be silver over gold because it can be traded in smaller denominations. You can't buy food and get change from a $1000 ounce of gold. You can buy food with silver.

We all know bad times are coming, but please use your head. The silver you have could save your life and the lives of your family.

This has been true throughout history whenever the dark times hit. And when hard times hit, its always been silver rather than gold that you'd better have stashed away.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 22:25
Look guys, I too am very convinced it is the Fed that is shorting the silver market.

But the Fed does have an Achilles heel. There is one thing they are afraid of, and that one thing could bring their entire house of cards down.

That Achilles heel is simple. All it's going to take is for the oil producing nations to decide the dollar is too unstable to trade in, and they decide to trade oil for Euros instead of dollars. If that happens, the whole Fed system goes belly up.

Right now the entire world has to pay for oil in dollars because that is the accepted currency for a barrel of oil. If OPEC and the Saudis bail out of the dollar and decide to trade in Euros instead, absolutely NONE of the oil money traded today goes back into the Feds coffers. There are many economists who believe that is the one and only thing that will break the Fed.

I don't care what the White House tells you is the reason we are fighting a war in Iraq. We are in Iraq for only one reason. In 2000 the Euro was born. In 2001 Saddam told the world he wasn't going to accept dollars for his oil; he would take only Euros.

If you guys don't think the Fed was in on the decision to invade Iraq, think again. There were no weapons of mass destruction there. We cannot find any reasonable connection between al Qaeda and Iraq.

The reason we made war with Iraq was because Saddam Hussein discovered the Feds Achilles Heel. And it's for real. Do some research on it. There are even videos explaining it on YouTube.

Daveman
19th March 2008, 22:36
Kelly, if such dark days should arrive in our lifetime (and I believe it's only a matter of time), if the Fed, or whatever the government will be called by the time they start forcibly "issuing" (enter key??) digital credits, then WHAT THE FUDGED MAKES YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT WILL ALSO NOT HAVE THE POWER TO STAMP OUT GOLD AND SILVER?

Don't be naive, people (the masses) aren't using gold and silver right now, and we haven't even been forcibly tatooed with any chips on our foreheads or forehands yet.



As for the petro dollar thing, since you thought about the military card the Fed government has in its sleeves, then you should know that such a scenario WILL NEVER HAPPEN until China, Russia, Iran, and maybe Venezuela have obtained the might and will to defeat USA in military conflicts AROUND THE WORLD, not just in one confined region.

Kelly
19th March 2008, 23:05
Dave, how in the hell is the Fed going to stamp out silver and gold? They can try. They can even shut down the commodity trading of silver and gold futures. But there are people from one end of this country to the next who have stashed their silver in very crafty hiding places and good luck to the fed if they think they are going to find it all.

As far as the Petro dollar and Iraq goes, two out of three presidential contenders have promised to pull all troops out of Iraq. The American people don't think the war is worth the cost in money and lives. Without big guns in the Middle East, what is going to stop the Oil cartells from trading in the Euro? And don't you think that if that happens, Venuzuela and the other countries will follow suit? I certainly do.

I think the Fed's house of cards is going to tumble. And I may not even like what replaces it, but I do not believe for one second that whatever fiendish plans are afoot among the bankers are going to succeed.

There are too many of us now who know what the bankers have done to the world. Even the Euro will fall because it is already hated by the people of Europe. This is a game being played out by the bankers. More and more of us realize that every day.

Hopefully the bankers will simply destroy each other, and then FINALLY the people of this poor, torn and tattered world will have a chance.

Hang in there. We're all scared and worried, but I truly believe these times have to happen because it is the only way to bring the bankers down.

The bankers don't just have a strangle hold on America, you know.

elixer
20th March 2008, 00:41
The cartel will be broken too if the US decides to militarily hit Iran, setting off a catastrophe that shuts down the flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz. Within days the price of oil is $250 a barrel, gold is $2000 an ounce, and silver.. pick a figure.

Daveman
20th March 2008, 01:42
We'll see. We'll see...

silverbuggy
20th March 2008, 01:54
The cartel will be broken too if the US decides to militarily hit Iran, setting off a catastrophe that shuts down the flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz. Within days the price of oil is $250 a barrel, gold is $2000 an ounce, and silver.. pick a figure.

dream on...it all reminds me on the dotcom time...everything is great the sky is the limit 200 USD for Silver and 2000 USD for gold AND THIS IS NOT MUCH!

*LOL*

Daveman
20th March 2008, 03:20
dream on...it all reminds me on the dotcom time...everything is great the sky is the limit 200 USD for Silver and 2000 USD for gold AND THIS IS NOT MUCH!

*LOL*
Oh, you must have had your head stuck in your arse the past 5 years!

Silver had quadrupled in price.

"Dream on," you say?

chux03
20th March 2008, 03:37
I still think that just about the only way to break the Feds (I think it's the Feds) manipulation of the silver market would be the other governments intervening.

No private investor(s) has what it takes, either money, connection, or power, to challenge the Fed, particularly if the Fed has decided it will continue to print money to do what it wants. Only some soverign wealth funds banding together has a chance. Nothing more, but a chance.

Ultimately, this may come down to what it has always came down to: force.

The Fed, the Feds and most every other entity that had a good supply of silver stockpiled at one time don't have it anymore. It's not our government that's doing the manipulating of the silver market. They don't have to as according to Ted Butler it's most likely the Chinese producers/refiners and some of our own big banks (crooks all, you can be sure) doing the shorting of the silver market which DOES manipulate that market as they try to suppress the price. They're toast (and our silver will shine when they're dead in the water) though they don't know it yet as they are one financial calamity away from a serious default. Of course, all they need is around 400 million ounces of silver to cover (maybe they want to call APMEX??). But the next real bad down day on Wall street will be these guys' Waterloo. I'm IN LONG and I'm betting on it...

Daveman
20th March 2008, 05:46
The Fed, the Feds and most every other entity that had a good supply of silver stockpiled at one time don't have it anymore. It's not our government that's doing the manipulating of the silver market. They don't have to as according to Ted Butler it's most likely the Chinese producers/refiners and some of our own big banks (crooks all, you can be sure) doing the shorting of the silver market which DOES manipulate that market as they try to suppress the price. They're toast (and our silver will shine when they're dead in the water) though they don't know it yet as they are one financial calamity away from a serious default. Of course, all they need is around 400 million ounces of silver to cover (maybe they want to call APMEX??). But the next real bad down day on Wall street will be these guys' Waterloo. I'm IN LONG and I'm betting on it...

Okay, so you're saying Chinese producers/refiners are the ones manipulating/suppressing the silver prices.

Why? How would this benefit them?

Robin
20th March 2008, 07:18
The cartel will be broken too if the US decides to militarily hit Iran, setting off a catastrophe that shuts down the flow of oil through the Straits of Hormuz. Within days the price of oil is $250 a barrel, gold is $2000 an ounce, and silver.. pick a figure.



A $100 a oz of silver. Hi everyone! Just looking around and doing alot of learning. I was thinking a year ago to get in to silver and gold but never did.:( How ever I get into making silver jewelry but haven't really had time to make it because of work. So I have a stash of silver sheet metal and wire thats been sitting around growing in price since 2003. I'm going to try and get some silver coins today. I can't begain to say I understand everything thats going on in this world, but I know that something is comming down soon. Has anybody here ever listen to Glenn Beck or Micheal Savage? Well, Micheal says what the fed are doing right now with some banks is pretty much like embezzlement and there doing it to us. Anyways there's way to much going on in this world for something not to happen. Silver and gold is going to go up.

Kelly
20th March 2008, 10:51
Daveman, if you are reading this and you want to spend your money on silver now, you can still get silver from APMEX at a minimum $5000 order. For those of you who were waiting for a dip hoping to buy just a few more ounces, I truly wish you good luck at finding any silver. Get on the phone. If you live in a city large enough to have an assay office, you might give them a call. They usually are not huge commercial sellers, but they generally have small quantities of silver for sale, and since most of them don't have online ordering services, maybe you can still get some silver there.

Though I hate to beat a dead horse with a stick, for those of you who still think it's China that has been manipulating the silver market, oh please, do tell me how the Chinese managed to engineer this kind of HUGE dip in the silver market, at precisely the same time every dealer in America seems to have run out of silver. My my, those Chinese sure now how to play the game, huh?

That everybody on earth "just happened to" run out of silver at the same time this dip took place screams of a huge manipulation going on, and I will stand my ground here. This manipulation wasn’t engineered by the Chinese.

nomoney
20th March 2008, 23:05
Most of us have heard Ted Butler, Jason Hommel and others openly declare they are certain that the silver market is being manipulated down by the financial institutions and the Commercials. This January 15th Ted Butler wrote…

"The extreme concentrated short position in gold and silver is the prime reason to be alert to an attempt for a vicious and engineered sell-off by the shorts. It also will be the reason for a market melt up, if the shorts lose control. There is nothing good one can say about the concentrated short position. It smells to high heaven and this is why I write about it so frequently. It is obvious that neither the regulators at the CFTC nor the Exchange have lifted a finger to rectify this dangerous situation, in spite of repeated public petitions." http://www.investmentrarities.com/01-15-08.html

In the past, though thousands upon thousands have written to the CFTC complaining of market manipulation, the CFTC has always lamely laughed it off saying they "don't see any indication of manipulation."

Well, that's B.S. and THIS TIME maybe, just MAYBE we can prove it! If there is any proof of Market Manipulation, it is in yesterday's and today's Kitco charts. Go here and take a look at this thing! http://www.kitco.com/charts/livesilver.html

Also, use your brain and COPY THIS CHART TO YOUR HARD DRIVE! DO IT NOW!

The Blue Line is the Asian Markets buying up silver once they heard that Bear Stearns went belly up and J. P. Morgan was getting the entire company for $2 a share. Obviously, the Hong Kong market had the brains to figure out the American dollar was tanking and gold and silver was the way to go. Sunday night the Asian Market drove the price of silver up from Friday's close at $20.67 to $21.34 before the London Market hit and started to drive the prices down (AM red line). Least ye forget, dear friends, while it is true that J.P. Morgan (i.e. Chase Manhattan Bank owned by the Rockefellers and the Morgans) own the lion's share of the American side of the privately owned banks that own the Federal Reserve, the rest of the Banking system that owns the Fed operates out of Europe and plays their side of the Fed game through the London Market.

Between the Fed manipulated London Market and the Fed manipulated American Market we saw the price of silver go from it's high of 21.34 to yesterdays low of about $19.70 in the space of around five hours.

Now the CFTC could try to weasel their way out of this one too HAD THIS BEEN A NORMAL TRADING DAY, but this was NOT a normal trading day; This was the next trading day after the Bear Stearns collapse, and the silver market was primed to shoot up to at least $23 dollars because EVERYBODY who has their money in the stock market is scared poopless, and they are for damned sure ready to put their money in silver and gold, or so said practically every national news broadcast on the tube yesterday.

If there is any BLATANT PROOF that the American Banking institutions are collectively shorting the silver market and using the Fed Bail Out Bucks (FBOB as the Mogambo would say) to manipulate the price of silver, IT IS IN THIS KITCO CHART!

I repeat, copy today's chart to your hard drive! Then write letters to the CFTC, NYMEX, your representatives and senators and every loud mouthed talking head you can think of and show them the proof!

Scream bloody murder about it. Tell Lou Dobbs the truth; he's got a big mouth. The financial institutions are using the FBOB (Fed Bail Out Bucks) to manipulate gold and especially silver down; they sure as hell are not using that money to provide loans to Americans loosing their homes.

They are using the Fed Bail Out Bucks to blatantly perpetuate the Biggest Game of Economic Blackmail against the American People I have ever seen!

Furthermore, the Fed's intent to manipulate the precious metals market is so danged openly blatant and extreme they have even dared to spit in the eye of the Chinese who graciously (and perhaps stupidly) bought our national debt.

The Fed should NOT play those kinds of games with the Chinese because those folks just may know how to play the game better than the Fed does.

Today the market is a joke. Intuitively, after this week's very grim news, silver should be skyrocketing, yet for every up tick there is a tick down. The chart says it all! As I write they have manipulated the market down from the Sunday night high of $21.34 to $19.92. And they were all stupid enough to make this kind of open play when the silver charts should have skyrocketed and we all know that's what should have happened. Write the CFTC, show them the chart as proof and scream bloody murder!

Hi everyone,
This is my first post so I will make it a good one.
Silver and gold prices are both being manipulated by crooked bankers and traders. The bright side of things is with Good Friday almost here we know the market will hold spot at 16 and change till Monday when the market opens again. This gives us 3 days to grab as much physical silver as possible at about 17.00 an ounce.The banks are flooding the market with silver and gold they don't physically have (via worthless paper stocks) so they can drive the prices down and then buy as much physical silver as they can with the new worthless paper money they just printed.

As long as everyone doesn't panic and sell them their physical silver then they can only manipulate the prices a few days or weeks at most before investors catch on and demand drives the prices back up because our old buddy supply and demand never sleeps. Doesn't anyone think the Commitments of Traders report not being updated till next Friday and silver and gold dropping a day after the FED just reported another rate cut and very large bank bailout to be very unusual? Doesn't the fact that all of the big gold and silver sellers being out of silver mean there is a much bigger demand than there is a supply? Doesn't the law of supply and demand drive prices up instead of down?

If you take some time and think about everything you will see the big picture and understand what is going on here.
The whole stock market and the dollar are ready to collapse and just about everyone with a computer knows it. Though the lamestream media won't admit it, gold and silver both should be going up instead of down because no one wants to lose their life savings with nothing but worthless paper money and paper stocks to show for it.

Myself I am holding every piece of silver I have even if it looks like is going back to six bucks an ounce, because in a month or two when it takes off to the moon (and demand will drive it there), I want to posses as much physical silver as humanly possible and I will spend every spare worthless paper dollar I have buying it until it's so expensive that I can't afford any more and though I hate to admit it, I am afraid that will be much sooner than we all think it will.

SilverTrees
20th March 2008, 23:14
Well worded...I agree....BUY AS MUCH SILVER (PHYSICAL) AS YOU CAN AND TELL EVERYBODY YOU KNOW!!!! Get on board the Silver Rocket..

SilverTrees
20th March 2008, 23:21
I've recently purchased a lot of 90% on ebay for a few friends who aren't too computer savvy....it's cool to get it under spot and pay with credit cards.in exchange they gave me all their nickels and pennies...I wish i had money to buy some silver for myself. It is fun buying for friends...going to make a trip to some coin shops tomorrow am

chux03
21st March 2008, 04:33
Okay, so you're saying Chinese producers/refiners are the ones manipulating/suppressing the silver prices.

Why? How would this benefit them?


Gold and silver producers take short positions to lock in prices for their production. They can take short positions because this is the mechanism by which they deliver supply to the market. It's how they lock in profits.

frankl4
21st March 2008, 05:17
I read that this down turn is a correction. I'm a novice. thank you.

Daveman
21st March 2008, 05:46
Gold and silver producers take short positions to lock in prices for their production. They can take short positions because this is the mechanism by which they deliver supply to the market. It's how they lock in profits.

Wouldn't the producers want HIGHER silver prices then? So they can make more profit as they sell their silver?

frankl4
21st March 2008, 06:24
Well worded...I agree....BUY AS MUCH SILVER (PHYSICAL) AS YOU CAN AND TELL EVERYBODY YOU KNOW!!!! Get on board the Silver Rocket..


Where do we go to unload all this silver we have? If it's where we bought it are we sure they will buy the silver back?

SilverTrees
21st March 2008, 09:36
...go to the year 2010....I'm sure you won't have any problems unloading then. Until then, keep buying and stacking, especially when the price drops like it does....BUY PHYSICAL!!

chux03
21st March 2008, 15:08
"Shortages are evidence of price fixing. Price fixing results in shortages. They are price fixing silver at a below market price over on the paper exchanges in New York and around the world."

From Jason Hommel's latest posting available here:

http://news.silverseek.com/GoldIsMoney/1206119500.php

gypsybiker45
22nd March 2008, 06:10
C,mon guys! quit acting like we are big wall st. traders, most of us are here for the long term. When to sell? NEVER for FRNs. Most of us here buy silver to protect ourselves from Fed manipulation.you cant make an argument about how FRNs suck and then cry about "when to sell", for what?!!! more paper notes that last week you said were worthless? Im a holder of Physical PMs, im not selling anytime soon,and anyone who is losing their ass on these paper silver stocks deserves no better than the idiots betting their futures on mortgage lenders. shut off CNBC, quit following the Dow,and for god sakes shut off that Windows sidebar kitco ticker! get the physical PMs you can afford now and forget the rest.

"Its going to be a great ride!" Suzuki

chux03
22nd March 2008, 13:09
I'm hopping on my big Vulcan and going with Gypsy!!!

First stop...the coin shop!!

Barbaric Relic
22nd March 2008, 23:58
China isnt out to make a quick buck in silver, instead they want it all, remember China takes a very long term view of things and to think why they wouldnt want the price to go up because they are some how missing out on profits maybe misguided.

When everyone else is down and out China just may have it all.

If you want to accumulate or control something wouldnt you want the price to be low until you have accheived your plans.

,

Why would China (or a group of Chinese companies working together) be the big short in silver? There are several possibilities. One, is to make money. As I wrote recently, the Silver Managers have made billions of dollars from COMEX futures and options. Maybe Red China was the big customer that the Silver Managers were hiding behind and working with. They divided the profits. Profits that came from the technical funds and others. Profits made possible from the market control gained by being the world's largest silver seller. With Red China working in cahoots with the Silver Managers, the CFTC would be tricked into thinking this was legitimate hedging. Legitimate, in a pig's foot. If Red China was the big short on the COMEX, while at the same time dumping inventory to depress the price, that doesn't make the price any less manipulated. It just means that China was the mastermind and/or muscle behind the manipulation.

Other possibilities for why China would manipulate silver prices, include an even uglier motivation than just amassing big COMEX trading profits. China is obviously dramatically increasing its share of world silver refining capacity. Perhaps Red China's motive is to keep silver prices artificially low, by dumping silver on the market and shorting like crazy on the COMEX, in order to drive other refining competitors out of business. Motive or not, that is exactly what has occurred. Once enough competition is eliminated, Red China will be in position to set prices to the upside, since they control such a dominant silver refining market share. There are more domestic and international laws that make such predatory pricing and business practices illegal than you could ever name. If it comes out that the CFTC and COMEX management had knowledge that China was, in fact, involved in this manipulative silver scam, they should be drawn and quartered. And if the Silver Managers think they can pass the buck to the Red Chinese, and keep their illicit gains in COMEX silver trading, they better think again.

Think of the negative strategic implications of having Red China dictate silver prices, first down, then up. Silver is a vital component in thousands of industrial applications. That means if silver is unavailable, entire production lines will shut down and workers will be sent home. The US Government, and its western counterparts, are now officially out of silver. All run silver deficits. All must import large amounts of silver. Red China is now the largest silver refiner in the world, and is increasing its share. At some point, Chinese industrial consumption will rise to the level where there is no silver available for export. To watch this develop is distressing to me. When there is not enough silver to go around, and factories around the world must close because of that, you can be sure Red China's factories will take preference over US or European factories for China's silver refining production. And, unfortunately, we have had two wars since I wrote about the defense implications of the US Government running out of silver and being dependent upon imports for more than 50 per cent of US consumption. Having Red China emerge as the largest silver refiner in the world, make matters a lot worse potentially.

What does this China story mean to silver investors? For one thing, it suggests a major name as the manipulator of a major market. This, I suppose, is how it must be. More importantly, it doesn't change anything. The silver market has been manipulated by leasing and uneconomic short selling on the COMEX. The Silver Managers are still the ringleaders. Having Red China emerge as the customer behind the Silver Managers fits perfectly. Motive, means and opportunity. And it explains (almost) how the CFTC and COMEX could turn a blind eye towards the manipulation right in front of them.

Both the CFTC and the COMEX are concerned with futures and options trading. Even though I have presented almost irrefutable evidence of violations of futures trading law (specifically violations of speculative position limits and manipulative COMEX warehouse movements), they have managed to sidestep the issue. But they are definitely not used to dealing with foreign nations involved in dumping. Usually, the Federal Trade Commission or the Commerce Dept. handle dumping charges. But, once it is brought to their intention that a foreign nation, particularly a non-democratic and communist dictatorship, may be involved in both futures law violations and physical commodity dumping, the CFTC and COMEX must open their eyes. Red China is sending unambiguous statements that they are dumping silver and are establishing themselves as the world silver refining powerhouse. If it turns out that China is also a kingpin in COMEX paper trading, that would complete the scam. This should be as simple for the CFTC to prosecute as a paint-by-numbers exercise for a 5 year-old.

I will not ask the CFTC and the COMEX if Red China is a big player on the COMEX, as I know what they will say - the law prevents us from disclosing the identity of traders. But the law also demands that they take action when manipulation and dumping are evident. Is their something about full disclosure that is so sacred that it preempts manipulation? Or are the CFTC and COMEX just selectively interpreting the law?

Will Izzy's premonition that bearish stories on silver prove to be the timing indicator for the major move? Time will tell, but the reasoning certainly sounds logical to me. After all, why would anyone make up bearish stories at this point? The only answer seems to be to send intentional false signals. Maybe Red China has exhausted its government holdings of silver. It seems they have sold well over 150 million ounces over the past 3 years. They will run out someday. Maybe these intentionally planted stories mean they are out of silver to dump, and they are trying to convince others to sell silver, based upon their phony bearish stories. This too is against US commodity law.

The question silver investors must ask themselves is what will happen when the Chinese stop dumping 50 million ounces a year from inventories? We know that must happen, as these, and all, inventories are finite. Where will the silver come from to make up the loss of 50 million ounces of supply? More importantly, what price will be necessary to draw 50 million ounces out of the woodwork, when, not if, China stops dumping silver from inventory? Additionally, my common sense tells me that when China runs out of inventory to dump, it will no longer be the big paper seller of COMEX silver, if they have been the big short. That's a giant double whammy to the upside.

Recently, I have read many stories on silver that mention manipulation and the short position on the COMEX. I think this is terrific and I congratulate the authors. I have raised these issues for more years than I care to remember, and it is gratifying to now see others write about them and confirm my analyses. It feels good not to be so alone, as I was for so many years. I think what may have been the catalyst for the recent trend of articles confirming my thesis has been my question, how can a market even be considered free, if it is in a long term deficit without rising prices? I am sure that the only answer to that question is that market must be manipulated. That is why no one, especially the CFTC and the COMEX, have been able to answer otherwise. That's why I asked the question in the first place.

I think it is important for silver investors to always put this silver manipulation issue into proper perspective. While you might feel the outrage that I feel about the continuing manipulation, and now the possible involvement of Red China, you must also remember that this manipulation is your best friend. Without this manipulation, you would never have the opportunity to buy silver at such give-away prices. Perhaps it is Red China that has made it possible for you to achieve your financial dreams. But only if you seize the moment and buy real silver. Take it from my Silver Godfather - they are making you an offer you can't refuse.


http://www.investmentrarities.com/07-08-03.html

Kelly
23rd March 2008, 09:02
Okay. Let's put it in perspective.

Why is it more reasonable to suspect the Fed would be more interested in manipuling silver than China would be? Read a little real history and learn about presidential executive order 11110...

JFK vs. The Federal Reserve
by Anthony Wayne – Lawgiver.org

On June 4, 1963, a virtually unknown Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, was signed with the authority to basically strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. With the stroke of a pen, President Kennedy declared that the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank would soon be out of business.

When President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - the author of Profiles in Courage - signed this Order, it returned to the federal government, specifically the Treasury Department, the Constitutional power to create and issue currency - money - without going through the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank. President Kennedy's Executive Order 11110 [the full text is displayed further below] gave the Treasury Department the explicit authority: 'to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury.' This means that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation based on the silver bullion physically held there. As a result, more than $4 billion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. It appears obvious that President Kennedy knew the Federal Reserve Notes being used as the purported legal currency were contrary to the Constitution of the united States of America.

United States Notes' were issued as an interest-free and debt-free currency backed by silver reserves in the U.S. Treasury. We compared a 'Federal Reserve Note' issued from the private central bank of the United States (the Federal Reserve Bank a/k/a Federal Reserve System), with a 'United States Note' from the U.S. Treasury issued by President Kennedy's Executive Order. They almost look alike, except one says 'Federal Reserve Note' on the top while the other says 'United States Note'. Also, the Federal Reserve Note has a green seal and serial number while the United States Note has a red seal and serial number.

President Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963 and the United States Notes he had issued were immediately taken out of circulation. Federal Reserve Notes continued to serve as the legal currency of the nation. According to the United States Secret Service, 99% of all U.S. paper 'currency' circulating in 1999 are Federal Reserve Notes.

Kennedy knew that if the silver-backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes. This is a very simple matter of economics. The USN was backed by silver and the FRN was not backed by anything of intrinsic value. Executive Order 11110 should have prevented the national debt from reaching its current level (virtually all of the nearly $9 trillion in federal debt has been created since 1963) if LBJ or any subsequent President were to enforce it. It would have almost immediately given the U.S. Government the ability to repay its debt without going to the private Federal Reserve Banks and being charged interest to create new 'money'. Executive Order 11110 gave the U.S.A. the ability to, once again, create its own money backed by silver and realm value worth something.

Again, according to our own research, just five months after Kennedy was assassinated, no more of the Series 1958 'Silver Certificates' were issued either, and they were subsequently removed from circulation. Perhaps the assassination of JFK was a warning to all future presidents not to interfere with the private Federal Reserve's control over the creation of money. It seems very apparent that President Kennedy challenged the 'powers that exist behind U.S. and world finance'. With true patriotic courage, JFK boldly faced the two most successful vehicles that have ever been used to drive up debt:

1) war (Viet Nam); and,

2) the creation of money by a privately owned central bank. His efforts to have all U.S. troops out of Vietnam by 1965 combined with Executive Order 11110 would have destroyed the profits and control of the private Federal Reserve Bank.
------------------------------------------------

Executive Order 11110

AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 10289 AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS AFFECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY. By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 301 of title 3 of the United States Code, it is ordered as follows:

SECTION 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 19, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended - (a) By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph (j): '(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C. 821 (b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denominations of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption,' and (b) By revoking subparagraphs (b) and (c) of paragraph 2 thereof. SECTION 2. The amendment made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue and may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.

JOHN F. KENNEDY
THE WHITE HOUSE,
June 4, 1963
------------------------------------------------

Once again, Executive Order 11110 is still valid. According to Title 3, United States Code, Section 301 dated January 26, 1998:

Executive Order (EO) 10289 dated Sept. 17, 1951, 16 F.R. 9499, was as amended by:
EO 10583, dated December 18, 1954, 19 F.R. 8725;
EO 10882 dated July 18, 1960, 25 F.R. 6869;
EO 11110 dated June 4, 1963, 28 F.R. 5605;
EO 11825 dated December 31, 1974, 40 F.R. 1003;
EO 12608 dated September 9, 1987, 52 F.R. 34617 The 1974 and 1987 amendments, added after Kennedy's 1963 amendment, did not change or alter any part of Kennedy's EO 11110. A search of Clinton's 1998 and 1999 EO's and Presidential Directives has also shown no reference to any alterations, suspensions, or changes to EO 11110.

The Federal Reserve Bank, a.k.a Federal Reserve System, is a Private Corporation. Black's Law Dictionary defines the 'Federal Reserve System' as: 'Network of twelve central banks to which most national banks belong and to which state chartered banks may belong. Membership rules require investment of stock and minimum reserves.' Privately-owned banks own the stock of the FED. This was explained in more detail in the case of Lewis v. United States, Federal Reporter, 2nd Series, Vol. 680, Pages 1239, 1241 (1982), where the court said: 'Each Federal Reserve Bank is a separate corporation owned by commercial banks in its region. The stock-holding commercial banks elect two thirds of each Bank's nine member board of directors.'

The Federal Reserve Banks are locally controlled by their member banks. Once again, according to Black's Law Dictionary, we find that these privately owned banks actually issue money:

'Federal Reserve Act Law which created Federal Reserve banks which act as agents in maintaining money reserves, issuing money in the form of bank notes, lending money to banks, and supervising banks. Administered by Federal Reserve Board (q.v.)'.

The privately owned Federal Reserve (FED) banks actually issue (create) the 'money' we use. In 1964, the House Committee on Banking and Currency, Subcommittee on Domestic Finance, at the second session of the 88th Congress, put out a study entitled Money Facts which contains a good description of what the FED is: 'The Federal Reserve is a total money-making machine. It can issue money or checks. And it never has a problem of making its checks good because it can obtain the $5 and $10 bills necessary to cover its check simply by asking the Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving to print them.'

To see the whole article, go to

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=5232'

Daveman
23rd March 2008, 17:09
Excellent post. I do believe that the U.S. government is at least in part responsible for the manipulation; the Chinese or any other foreign government may also be, I'm not ruling anything out the moment. ANY central bank that usues fiat currency is suspect as they gold and silver are direct competitors to their products, thus livelihood.

Kelly
23rd March 2008, 17:43
Did we just hear from the real Ted Butler? Is that who "Barbaric Relic" is? If so, that's very, very cool. Hello!

All of the above points are valid about China. But I am afraid we may be dealing here with something a great deal more serious than most of us have been thinking about.

The Constitution of the United States demands that our money be backed by either silver or gold. The fiat paper money presently being printed by the Fed is, quite literally, unconstitutional. From the moment that England's bankers contrived to take over our money system, their goal has been to demonetize silver.

"I went to America in the winter of 1872-1873 to secure, if I could, the passage of a bill demonetizing silver. It was in the interest of those I represented – the governors of the Bank of England, to have it done. By 1873 gold coins were the only form of coin money." - Earnest Seyd, Agent for the Bank of England

From the beginning, it has been in the best interest of the banks that own the Federal Reserve to not only fix the price of silver, but to keep the price of silver deflated. This has been going on for decades; all one has to do to establish that fact is look at the long-term charts for silver. The price manipulation of silver was obviously going on long before China decided to become capitalists.

Right now, the banks that own and control the Federal Reserve are facing quite a dilemma. The dollar is tanking. For decades it has been the currency everybody had to use to buy a barrel of oil. But we are dealing here with something far more serious than the dollar merely loosing status as the world's "petro dollar." For decades the dollar has been the world's reserve currency. Not so today. In the past couple of years, the following countries have stopped using the dollar as their reserve currency or have dropped their currency's peg against the dollar completely:

• China
• Japan
• Kuwait
• Syria
• Iran
• Libya
• Russia
• Malaysia
• Brazil
• Argentina
• Ecuador
• Switzerland
• Norway and some other Scandinavian countries
• Some Balkan countries
• Many East European currencies

Additionally, the following countries are rumored to be considering dropping the dollar as their reserve currency or terminating their currency's peg against the dollar:

• The Arab Gulf States
• Saudi Arabia
• South Korea
• Venezuela
• Sudan

As former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and the "Father of Reagonomics", Paul Craig Roberts, recently said: "The dollar’s reserve currency role is drawing to an end." And right now, as is blatantly obvious, the world's preferred reserve currency is rapidly becoming the Euro as the dollar slides into unanimous oblivion around the world.

No matter how many ways you look at this thing, the dollar can never come back because the dollar's strength was in the fact that it was used as the world's reserve currency. Those days are over.

It looks like we are going to have to come up with a new currency, and it's going to have to be one that can compete against the Euro in the world's marketplace. The Fed is obviously already quite aware of this reality.

In the last few years, and largely because of the internet, a great many people today are very aware of the criminal role the Federal Reserve has been playing. They've not only been fleecing America of it's wealth for years, they have been using the dollar to manipulate economies around the world.

As many people now know, rumor has it that the Fed (and their CFR puppets) wants to combine the currencies of America, Canada and Mexico into a single currency called the "Amero." There was a huge amount of internet information about the proposed North American Union and Amero throughout 2006-2007. CNBC and CNN gave it plenty of air time too. It's quite probable that this was a "test case" and that information was purposefully leaked to the public so that the Fed could find out what the public's reaction would be to such an idea. If so, then the Fed certainly found out that most Americans and Canadians would fight such a proposal tooth and nail. Mexico was less opposed to the idea because they saw it as a way to solve their own economic problems.

There are millions of Americans right now who are not only calling for the return of a silver backed dollar; there is an increasing number of economists as well as every day people who are calling for the end of the Federal Reserve Banking system.

The Fed does not want a silver backed dollar and they certainly do not want their dogmatic control over our money system to end.

Like it or not, it's THE PEOPLE of America who want to return to a currency backed by silver. Unfortunately, that is NOT what the Federal Reserve bankers have apparently planned for our future.

Any way you look at it, the Federal Reserve dollar is tanking. It's never going to be the world's reserve currency again. As a nation, Americans have to face this and be realistic about it, because not facing this reality, no matter how grim it is, is going to hurt us even worse.

The people want a silver backed currency, and the Fed wants an Amero (or whatever they decide to call it) backed by nothing, or perhaps even partially backed by gold. We'll have to wait and see.

Regardless of what is decided about our future, it is simply in the Fed's best interest to make silver look as volatile and unreliable as possible right now.

Kelly
23rd March 2008, 19:35
"The dollar has clearly been abandoned and foreigners are starting to bail from dollar-denominated assets in droves. This is where bailouts, and the hyperinflationary destruction of the dollar that comes with them, are leading us, along with miniscule bond rates caused by continual flights to "security" as everyone flees in terror due to rapidly deteriorating market conditions caused by subprime fallout, over-leveraged speculation, fraudulent lending and borrowing, lack of oversight, transparency and confidence, frozen credit markets, an out-of-control money supply, profligate borrowing and spending, as well as an economy destroyed in less than two decades by globalization, free trade, off-shoring, outsourcing, unrestrained illegal immigration, insane wars for profit and the rampant inflation and unemployment that come from a completely, totally and malevolently mismanaged economy thanks to the reprobates and sociopaths that run the Fed and our government." Bob Chapman, International Forecaster

http://news.goldseek.com/InternationalForecaster/1205993100.php

This is a great article. The guy calls a spade a spade….

elixer
23rd March 2008, 20:01
thanks Kelly - good article and link

nomoney
23rd March 2008, 20:54
China isnt out to make a quick buck in silver, instead they want it all, remember China takes a very long term view of things and to think why they wouldnt want the price to go up because they are some how missing out on profits maybe misguided.

http://www.investmentrarities.com/07-08-03.html

If anyone is keeping the price of silver and gold down ,you can bet your bottom not even dried yet worth less dollar it's the fed bankers (Chase, Citibank, JP Morgan, etc and the Bankers in london). Do you really think the Fed would let the Chinese steal all their silver and gold? Those regulating wall street would have them locked up in a heartbeat,though it is fine for them to do it themselves. Don't think for a second the politicians aren't involved in this scam either because the Fed is the one that pays the politicians with their profits assured because they are backed by the taxpayers labor as security. Anyone who invests in PM's needs to read the TED BUTLER'S ARCHIVES to understand what is really going on and I suggest spending a few hours and reading every one of them and to email the link to his site to everyone you know. Since almost all the large dealers are out of PM's if the little guy(that being us) keeps buying, it won't be long before the short sellers can keep the prices down, nor be able to produce the silver they say they possess (though only on paper) and then the SWHTF!

Archives

TED BUTLER'S ARCHIVES
Life After Bear Stearns

(This essay was written by silver analyst Theodore Butler, an independent consultant. Investment Rarities does not necessarily endorse these views, which may or may not prove to be correct.)

Before getting into the heart of today’s message, some specific updates on silver. First, there were no big changes in the market structure of silver and gold COMEX futures, as portrayed by the most recent Commitment of Traders Report (COT). In other words, the historic concentrated short positions continue to exist and even expand.

For positions held as of March 11, the four largest traders hold more than 310 million ounces of silver net short, while the eight largest traders now hold a record net short position of over 400 million ounces. In terms of days of world production, or any objective comparison to any other commodity, the silver concentrated net short position continues to be "off the charts." An interesting development is the recent buying by the raptors (the 9+ commercials), which has the effect of isolating the big 4 and 8 traders (the T. rexes.), this accentuates the uneconomic nature of the concentrated short position. After all, if the short sale of silver was such an attractive trade, why would so few commercials be involved?

Even compared to gold, where the four largest traders now hold a larger concentrated gold net short position than at any point in history, at 17.4 million ounces, the silver short position is unprecedented and, quite frankly, an abomination. I don’t know how the regulators at the CFTC and NYMEX can live with themselves for allowing this obvious manipulation to continue. And it is shameful to think the government regulators swore an oath to uphold the law. (News that the Chicago Merc has formally agreed to absorb the NYMEX, brings another party into the manipulation. More on that in the future.)

As previously written, the epic concentrated short position in COMEX silver is a good news/bad news situation. The bad news is that it explains the depressed relative price of silver and accounts for much of the recent price volatility, as the big shorts struggle to create sell-offs with the hope of buying back some of their positions. The good news is two-fold, that it affords the purchase at today’s subsidized low price and will serve as a powerful source of buying on the upside someday. But when? A better question is what may cause the shorts to retreat?

The most logical circumstance that could cause the big shorts to run to cover on the upside is a physical shortage in silver. Remember, the shorts are obligated to deliver real metal, if and when called upon to do so by the longs. This is the shorts’ Achilles’ Heel, that will doom them some day. It is the combination of the extreme concentrated short position and the potential of a physical shortage that portends explosive price action in silver (as distinguished from gold, where no actual industrial shortage appears plausible.)

Of course, by the time we get clear evidence of a pronounced shortage in silver, it is most probable that will already be reflected in the price. In other words, it will probably be too late to buy silver at "reasonable" prices. Therefore, it would seem logical to conclude that we must look for subtle clues that might suggest a physical silver shortage may be upon us. With the caveat that subtle can also be misleading, I think I see two such clues currently.

The first involves recent sales of Silver Eagles from the US Mint. For the first time in my memory, the US Mint could not keep up with demand for Silver Eagles, or, in simple terms, "ran out" of them recently. There is no doubt in my mind that this occurred as a direct result of the article mailed to IRI clients in November written by my friend and mentor, Izzy, "A Beautiful Idea." http://www.investmentrarities.com/12-03-07.html (There were actually two articles by him, including one about the housing/mortgage market that contains the single best idea I have heard to help ease the pain of the housing debacle.)

After Izzy’s article, the Mint sold more Silver Eagles over the next three months than it ever sold before. Then, sales fell off a cliff in February, only to soar to the highest sales ever in March, although the month is only half over. That pattern and informed sources close to the Mint confirm that the Mint ran out of the silver blanks needed to produce the coins, due to unexpected demand. That demand was, obviously, brought about by Izzy’s article. Please keep in mind, that there was no spike in Gold Eagle sales during this time period, so it is clear that this was a silver-only phenomenon.

While the US Mint running out of Silver Eagles, due to a surge in demand, does not prove a broad silver shortage, it does highlight and suggest tightness in the physical distribution supply lines. And it does seem to add credence to Izzy’s prediction that someday the Mint will stop minting Silver Eagles so as not to aggravate any future silver shortage. After all, if they can’t keep up with demand now, how will they keep up in a future known time of shortage?

The second "clue" pointing towards a possible silver shortage has been the pace of metal deposited in the big silver ETF, SLV. Unlike many, I’ve always thought that SLV was on the up and up. I did doubt early on that this ETF would come into existence because of the obvious impact it would have on price, but I always assumed that, if it came into existence, it would be legitimate. That is, I never doubted that the silver they claimed to own did exist and was held by them. While I reserve the right to change my mind, my thoughts were reinforced when Barclays Global Investors accepted my recent public suggestion that they openly list the serial numbers on each 1000 ounce bar of silver they held. Silver held in one’s personal possession or in storage allocated by specific serial numbers is still the best way to own silver, but for large institutional investors, the SLV was fine. Especially when compared to the alternative, which was unbacked bank silver certificates or nothing at all.

My only concern was that there appeared to be times when, on a short-term basis, the fund did not reflect all the silver bought in share form. In other words, due to the logistics of getting physical silver into the custodian’s vaults, not all the recently purchased shares had full metal backing, but were represented by short sales of the shares. I did not, and still do not, consider this a serious problem, as long as the amounts and time lapsed were not excessive.

Even if you find my silver message somewhat outlandish and unbelievable, I challenge you to investigate the facts. There can be no better example to study, for better and worse on silver, than the world’s most successful large investor, Warren Buffett. Ten years ago, he bought 130 million ounces at $5 per ounce, for all the right reasons, i.e., the real fundamentals. Not content to just sit on it, in my opinion, he tried to get fancy and trade futures against it for extra income and wound up losing a stash that could never be replaced ever again. Learn from that - buy real silver, and then forget about it.
I cut small parts some out because of space restrictions to read rest go here.
http://www.investmentrarities.com/03-18-08.html

Kelly
23rd March 2008, 23:01
Are We Out of Cheap Silver?

By: Vincent Bressler

While the price of silver in the futures market was falling by 17% this week, coin shops all over the country were running out of silver. We are witnessing a disconnect between the financial markets and reality. In the financial markets, the silver shorts hold all the cards: 1) They have a virtually unlimited check book from the FED 2) They can influence the futures exchange to jack up margin requirements when the price is falling rapidly, but not when it is increasing rapidly 3) They can changes the delivery and trading rules on the futures exchange. The longs in the futures market have none of these advantages and they are being driven into bankruptcy by the shorts. We are approaching the point where the only longs that still exist are those who intend to take delivery. At this point the futures market becomes irrelevant. People who went to their coin shops today were told that they have to pay now and can take delivery in two weeks. I'm wondering if that delivery will ever happen at the low price quoted today. The lower silver goes on the futures exchange, the less likely that the exchange or coin brokers will be able to deliver based on the phony COMEX silver price.

A futures contract in silver is becoming a financial asset with a tenuous connection to silver itself. I expect that the price that you have to pay for silver at your local coin dealer is about to start moving up up and away from the futures market price for the next delivery month. In fact this is already starting to happen. The next delivery month on COMEX is May. It is entirely possible that we will see a run on the COMEX silver supply in May and a default if enough longs decide to take delivery. More likely, under this circumstance, COMEX will simply change rules and enable payout of long contracts in dollars. Either way it will be the end of the futures market as a price discovery mechanism for silver and the end of cheap silver.

http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1206111600.php


Basically, I have to agree with this guy. I think the futures market may have played so many games this last week that the physical dealers are going to stop using futures as the gage by which the spot price of precious metals, or at the very least silver, is to be sold. People are begining to see the futures market much like other countries now view the dollar.

In other words, "If the game is rigged, why play?"

The shorts may have just slit their own throats this time. And from the sound of things there's going to be quite a few good folks out there who will not shed a tear if the silver shorts finally end up bleeding to death.

gypsybiker45
24th March 2008, 06:26
I have one of those "Kennedy" $2 red seal United States Notes.

Kelly
24th March 2008, 07:32
Does it say "silver certificate" on it?

Kelly
24th March 2008, 07:53
This is another excellent article.

The Die is Cast, the Cast Will Die by Darryl Robert Schoon

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1206339300.php

In regards to this article I would like to comment...

People need to understand that it is the Rockefeller interests that own Chase Manhattan Bank, and it is the largest of the American owned banks that make up the eight banks that own the Federal Reserve Bank. Chase Manhattan purchased JP Morgan in the year 2000 to form JP Morgan Chase, owning assets in the range of $1.6 trillion dollars. As we all know by now, this was the bank that recently was "loaned" $241 million dollars by the Fed in order to buy out Bear Stearns, all of which happened, curiously enough, in precisely the same week that the mysterious cartel shorting silver futures took the spot price of silver from the week's high of 21.34 to close to a miserable $16.71 in the space of just four days. All this happened during the same week when millions of Americans, rightfully scared out of their wits that the collapse of Bear Stearns signaled pending economic doom, were ready to invest in silver and gold, which had, up until then, been rising rapidly. Those people not only saw silver tank inexplicably downwards in a week when it should have logically risen by leaps and bounds, those who decided to go ahead and buy silver on the dip anyway quickly found that all the largest commercial silver dealers were reporting they "were out" and taking no orders for silver unless one could meet a minimum $5000 order. This move effectively insured that only America's more solvent individuals, people with at least $5 K in savings, would be able to buy silver on the dip. Unfortunately, this same move left the average cash-strapped middle class American who may have had only $2000 in savings completely out of the loop. In other words, if this dip in silver was indeed manipulated behind the scenes, it was certainly done so in a manner that would favor the wealthy while most middle class Americans were denied the right to buy silver because they didn't have the money stashed to meet the minimum. It was a very curious set of circumstances, wouldn't you say?

So let us look at more of the curious facts. JP Morgan Chase is currently the third largest banking institution in the United States, behind only Bank of America and Citigroup. The hedge fund unit of JP Morgan Chase is, in fact, the largest hedge fund in the United States, owning $34 billion in assets as of 2007. Hedge funds, regardless of who owns them, are by their very nature the most secretive and least transparent of all institutional investments. Never-the-less, as the value of mortgage backed assets in hedge funds tumble downward it is equally no secret that hedge fund managers have typically been entering margin positions in the futures commodity market in order to shore up their financial positions which are getting hit hard by falling prices in the housing market. In fact, if I could name any institutional hedge fund on the face of the earth that might reasonably have a very serious interest in manipulating silver futures by shorting them, it would be the hedge fund belonging to JP Morgan Chase.

If successful in their manipulation of silver in order to keep it down, JP Morgan Chase would not only stand to gain a very lucrative income derived from shorting silver commodity futures, they would also be effectively driving down the value of the only precious metal known to man that could be used efficiently as an alternative currency in the event of a national monetary crisis. Both moves would actually be in the best interest of JP Morgan Chase, because that specific bank can realistically be determined to be the largest of the four American owned banks that own the Fed, as well as the most influential (at least in America) of the eight mysterious banks that privately own the Federal Reserve.

Kelly
24th March 2008, 08:30
I guess I should add why I think silver is more efficent as money than gold. With the exception of paper money backed by gold, so that one might issue a "gold certificate" similar to the silver certificates printed in days past, gold is a terrible choice for money. Let us say that gold stays at or above $1000 an oz; in which case a gold coin representing $100 would only weigh 2.835 grams. You can compare that to a dime, which weighs 2.2 grams.

Obviously, one could not issue gold coinage except in units representing $100 or more because the size of the coin would be too small to mint. Monetary denominations of less than $100, even in paper money printed as gold-backed certificates would be nearly impossible to guarentee as gold backed monetary units. A gold-backed $10 bill, for instance, would have to be guarenteed in grains of gold which is simply not realistic.

Gold would only become practical as a guarentee that backed paper money if the roles between silver and gold were reversed, in which case silver would have to be valued as worth at least ten times the value of gold.

Barbaric Relic
24th March 2008, 09:32
Excellent post. I do believe that the U.S. government is at least in part responsible for the manipulation; the Chinese or any other foreign government may also be, I'm not ruling anything out the moment. ANY central bank that usues fiat currency is suspect as they gold and silver are direct competitors to their products, thus livelihood.

Agree with this Davey

Very convincing Kelly , and how did you guess it was me Ted Butler.

Just kidding. Im just some silver freak.

The Fed may very well be involved here, maybe its a battle royal between them.

Put nothing past the fed

mls56
24th March 2008, 09:42
I have follow Teds words to the TEE! The open works of the Fed,along with J.P.,Goldmans to dip there greedy paws in the freash ink was expexted! But along thr way, between 2001 to 2006 a new player was born. A not talked about company started as Markit INC, now Markit LTD of London & New York has little or no exposer by the MSM, but blogs that come from former Wall St workers have some very trobleing stuff to say about this company and how it came to be!! The share holders whoes names would reveal some light upon how insider info was traded for shares of this Shadow company, or is it a Shadow co? You hear no signs of sub prime?CDO's? But Pam Markens wrote how this company came to be a power house in a short time with the help of the other big boys on wall st! I thought this would stir some interest about this, just by the fact that Pam wrote that Markit promised shares for timely info on inside info from Wall St investment banks 2001 to 2006, the names on those share holders would tell where they worked!! Anyone with the knowhow to track or get the info about Markit LTD will find the crooks that have cost Americans tax payers to bail out the a holes, then mess with the free market.
Ted was right, the boys are grabbing dropping knives, I can not find but one media show that will have a open debate about gold/silver, then you have the same ones that slam the gold bugs as nuts and believe the dollar will be almighty.
I have done as T Butler said, buy and hold, buy cheap, on big dips, the big shorts will back there self into a spot where they feel danger, but will lose control, just dont fall into there trap, by trying to beat them in the markets. Wait them out, untill all of there cards fall!! Got Silver??????

Kelly
24th March 2008, 09:46
Funny thing, (well not so funny when you think about it) but three out of the four assassinated presidents, including Lincoln, Garfield and Kennedy had, right before they were murdered, either undertaken serious steps to put the Fed out of business, or were in a very serious battle against the banking cartel. The only other assasinated president was McKinnley, and he was a Fed puppet, responsible for backing the bankers, wall street and radically against the labor unions that were trying to form at the time. Somebody poor and ticked off shot McKinnley.

Today many Fed historians suspect the other three presidents were actually murdered by people working for the banking cartel...

Kelly
24th March 2008, 09:57
Mis56, would you please post some links to the articles about Markit LTD of London & New York? I'd sure like to learn more about this group...

offgrid
24th March 2008, 17:52
When you have grown up in rarified air, you certainly don't want it polluted by the exhalations of the cattle, regardless of what country you are from. Look at the collapse of the Soviet Union, those who had the power and wealth still retain it. Or look to opec and their recent decision not to increase output.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/02/where-is-all-oil-money-going.html

When the cracks do appear,you have to drive a wedge in before it seals back up, like Kelly mentioned at the start of this thread, and butler et al. are trying to do.

prahudka
24th March 2008, 19:04
When the cracks do appear,you have to drive a wedge in before it seals back up, like Kelly mentioned at the start of this thread, and butler et al. are trying to do.

THe internet is probably allowing the little guys to stand firm and not break ranks. Butler is encouraging. Now he better be right also!

Kelly
25th March 2008, 08:49
I read that this down turn is a correction. I'm a novice. thank you.

Frank14, "correction" is the term the talking heads use to spin market manipulation. You gotta learn "doublespeak 101" if you want to survive.

Barbaric Relic
25th March 2008, 10:19
Funny thing, (well not so funny when you think about it) but three out of the four assassinated presidents, including Lincoln, Garfield and Kennedy had, right before they were murdered, either undertaken serious steps to put the Fed out of business, or were in a very serious battle against the banking cartel. The only other assasinated president was McKinnley, and he was a Fed puppet, responsible for backing the bankers, wall street and radically against the labor unions that were trying to form at the time. Somebody poor and ticked off shot McKinnley.

Today many Fed historians suspect the other three presidents were actually murdered by people working for the banking cartel...

I just recently begun to suspect this as well, the fed or the mafia, not a lot of difference perhaps, maybe the mafia are nicer folk though.

Kelly
25th March 2008, 11:28
I suspect most of us have all heard about a million conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination over the years. But not once, in all those theories have I ever seen anybody bring up Kennedy's battle with the Fed. Not once! When I ran across the info about Kennedy's executive order 11110 a couple of weeks ago, I was utterly floored. Kennedy was on a mission to take the Fed down. How come nobody writing the books on his assassination has brought this up? Jeez…if you were looking for motive, the motive seems plain as day.

"The high office of President has been used to format a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office must inform the citizen of his plight."- John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination.

mls56
31st March 2008, 01:08
:)
Mis56, would you please post some links to the articles about Markit LTD of London & New York? I'd sure like to learn more about this group... Google Markit.com, you will be amazed ! I found the bloggers em ,pamk741@aol.com, she writes on a site that exposes the inside workings of all of wall street & how they connect to the ECB, BoE ,FED, lifers in the Senate, so forth. Have fun, because it is all unfolding as the clock ticks. do you get www.GATA.orgs ems reports? If not , do ASAP, check there lastest post by www.deepcaster.com. GATA has been a leader in the gold/silver markets exposeing the price fixing by the Cartel's ! They have spent millions to expose the big players, please read about them, you will enjoy. Good Luck ! We all will need it to get through this one.

Kelly
31st March 2008, 08:44
Mis56 - Thanks bunches for all the info. Based on your earlier post, I did do some preliminary searches on Markit. Hmmmmmmm! And have been exploring GATA too and have to hand it to those folks. It looks like they've got a good deal of old-fashioned spit and vinegar to them, and I certainly admire the way they stuck to it in trying to get some answers out of the Treasury Departmnet on the question of confiscation. On your recommendation I'll sign up for their newsletter which will join all the other newsletters my poor overcrowded EM box gets every day. Precisely which site is Pam blogging on though? And can you provide me with any links to any of her blogs? I'd like very much to read what she has to say.

Again, thanks for your answer!

Kelly
31st March 2008, 08:57
Hey, I just googled "pamk741" and found the gold mine! I'm starting to read here...

http://westernmass.craigslist.org/pol/609045575.html

Kelly
31st March 2008, 09:12
Woo Hoo! This Pam Martin is an absolute riot! Ohhh, you guys gotta read her stuff! She's good! I like what she says and I like how she says it.

Kelly
31st March 2008, 09:58
"Few Americans are aware that for at least 16 years big business and banks have been secretly taking out millions of life insurance policies on their rank and file workers and naming the corporation the beneficiary of the death benefit without the knowledge of the worker. The individual policies are frequently in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. If the employee leaves the company, no problem; big business is still allowed to collect the death benefit and they track the employee through the Social Security Administration to keep tabs on when they die. These policies are commonly known as "dead peasant" or "janitor" policies because they insure low-wage earners including janitors. Some of the largest corporations in America have been boosting their income statements by including cash buildup in the policies as well as receiving the death benefit tax free." - Pam Martens

http://www.rense.com/general80/cit.htm

Obhh! How long, in God's name, are we the American people, going to allow this kind of crap to go on? Every person in America paying their premiums on their life insurance policies is ultimately paying for this. This is REALLY sick and twisted!

DaveK
31st March 2008, 10:59
[...]those who decided to go ahead and buy silver on the dip anyway quickly found that all the largest commercial silver dealers were reporting they "were out" and taking no orders for silver unless one could meet a minimum $5000 order.


Interesting strategy. I'd like to hear from people here if they encountered this? I know many people reported being unable to source small quantities, 1, 10 and 100oz bars for example, and I know that there are at least a few people here who evidently purchase huge volumes, I've seen casual claims of well over $50,000 orders. So, can anyone here verify that they had no trouble recently purchasing $16 or $17 silver in quantities over about $5000?


[I]"Few Americans are aware that for at least 16 years big business and banks have been secretly taking out millions of life insurance policies on their rank and file workers and naming the corporation the beneficiary of the death benefit without the knowledge of the worker.

Perhaps you could explain why you believe this is a problem? Clearly a corporation has pecuniary interest in it's employees continued existence, and that for larger institutions unexpected death is both common and has financial implications, particularly for key individuals. While insuring the janitor is perhaps a stretch, I can't see why it would be an ethical problem, provided that the premiums paid by the organization are in line with the value of the policy and risk incurred by the organization.

Now, if in fact the premiums paid are not commensurate and the company is collecting payouts that are out of proportion to the premiums they are paying the insurance company, then indeed, customers of that insurance company have every right to be concerned. This, however, is not a problem with the fact that the policy exists, undisclosed or not, but in the management of the insurance company that would allow such a situation at the expense of it's other clients.

Kelly
31st March 2008, 11:40
Interesting strategy. I'd like to hear from people here if they encountered this?

You might try asking this question on one of the other threads where the silver shortages (or lack of shortages with some firms) have been discussed at great length.


Perhaps you could explain why you believe this is a problem?

While I can see the logic in a company taking out a life insurance policy on a valued and highly paid employee, if you read the article from which I was quoting, Ms. Martens stated that these insurance policies are being taken out on the lowest paid workers; people who probably aren't paid enough money to afford life insurance policies to insure their own family's well-being in the event of their death.

From my point of view, when a man's widow and children go hungry because they have not a dime to live on when the main breadwinner dies, but the rich corporation who paid that bread winner but a pittance in wages gets to collect and benefit from the death of that worker, then something is wrong.

If that corporation paid a percentage of the money they recieved to that worker's family, then I might see the justice in what they are doing. But since the only people who profit are the men at the top, while the worker and his family are left with nothing, I personally find the practice predatory and unjust. Any justification on the grounds that the corporation is doing this so they can keep up with their pension funds seems rather lame since generally, the people on the lowest end of the wage scale are seldom offered pension funds these days, or much of a benefit package at all.

kaysean
31st March 2008, 17:20
Hi,

I'm new here

I want to know what is the outlook for silver in the short term (April/May/June)?

People on CNBC are talking about the commodity bubble bursting!!

Its trading very close to 17.

Where do we go from here?!!!


Kay

Kelly
31st March 2008, 18:09
Welcome to the forum, Kay.

Well, none of us see the future, but I would take CNBC's predictions with a grain of salt. Commodity futures are manipulated by paper traders who often have little to do with the underlying hard asset and traditionally, it is the future's market that supposedly establishes the price of silver. That may be changing.

In recent weeks the real price of silver for people who wish to take physical possession has been considerably higher than spot price in many places.

I already bought my stash some time ago and am just waiting for the prices to go up again, but you might try some of the other threads in this forum because there are people there discussing these things who are still actively buying. I am sure they too will also extend you a hearty welcome :)

polcat
31st March 2008, 23:10
How can we win? Central banks, led surreptitiously by the Fed, are supplying physical gold to the market. And wise heads like the Indians are buying it.
http://www.gata.org/node/6188

JaySpizzy
1st April 2008, 07:54
One thing to be aware of is that every news article appearing in the major press has specific interests mind, since the media is owned and therefore influenced by non-biased entities.

What is the outcome of an article claiming that the PM bubble will burst? Weakened confidence in the PMs by a large percentage of investors. Who benefits from that?

i) Funds who are shorting PMs
ii) Central banks who need PM demand to go down in order to keep fiat currencies alive, and thereby prolong control of nations.

The above argument is strengthened if the owners of the media outlet in question are partly the two parties stated above. CNBC is owned by General Elecrtric, which is definitely controlled by the banks (anyone have more specific info on the principle shareholders?).

Moral of the story is, we have to go a little further than to rely on the information given to us by our opponent in a game of cards, or we'll surely lose.

JaySpizzy
1st April 2008, 07:58
How can we win? Central banks, led surreptitiously by the Fed, are supplying physical gold to the market. And wise heads like the Indians are buying it.
http://www.gata.org/node/6188

We can be wise too, and buy more physical gold and silver. We can keep it safe and don't give it up. They are taking a great risk by releasing it, exchanging physical control of the gold to decline its value- we can call their bluff.

waynetheking
1st April 2008, 14:25
some truth to all this doublespeak. i have read all the comments here and to be frank with you, have laughed at many of them!!...But that being said, a lot of the comments do inspire me to think. and thats a good thing. all i know is my holdings in silver are about 20% of my assets and that makes me wonder how i can protect it, grow it, make a profit with it!..i'm not an economics major but the info here is enlighting. Just wanted to say Thanks to kelly and daveman and all the others that contribute!!

Daveman
1st April 2008, 22:17
Glad you find my gibberish helpful.

To real wealth.

LongJohnSilver
3rd April 2008, 11:53
I suspect most of us have all heard about a million conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination over the years. But not once, in all those theories have I ever seen anybody bring up Kennedy's battle with the Fed. Not once! When I ran across the info about Kennedy's executive order 11110 a couple of weeks ago, I was utterly floored. Kennedy was on a mission to take the Fed down. How come nobody writing the books on his assassination has brought this up? Jeez…if you were looking for motive, the motive seems plain as day.

"The high office of President has been used to format a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office must inform the citizen of his plight."- John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination.
Kelly,

Thankyou to you and Barbarous Relic for your many excellent posts on Market Manipulation. In these extraordinary times it will be worthwhile to compile the causes of the recent manipulation.

With regard to JFK, EO 11110 and the Fed - when I first heard about this it was an aha moment...things fell into place...on further research I came across the following from Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. Department of Economics College of Charleston, S.C. which I reproduce here to encourage the debate and hopefully to gather forum comments.

Flaherty deals here with the Silver Certificates which are the subject of EO11110.

The issuing of Red Seal Greenback Treasury Notes during Kennedy's time is another subject for debate re JFK and the Fed. There certainly do seem to have been lots of these debt-free bills introduced into the US system that are dated 1963. (I too have one, Gypsy) I have no comparative figures of how many Red Seal Greenbacks were issued by JFK's administration compared to other administrations but it may well be that he had more greenbacks put into general circulation than any president since Lincoln. If this is true and if Kennedy had ideas of serious monetary reform it certainly would have been somewhat disconcerting to the Federal Reserve. (!)

I have no claim to be an expert on these matters (or any other matter)

Here is the Flaherty article....which he describes as one of the Myths of Kennedy conspiracy theorists.

Myth #9: President Kennedy was assassinated because he tried to usurp the Federal Reserve's power. Executive Order 11,110 proves it.

BY: Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. Department of Economics College of Charleston, S.C.

Presidential Executive Order 11,110 is quite infamous among conspiracy buffs. Jim Marrs, author of Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy, writes that the order instructs the Treasury secretary to issue about $4.2 billion in
silver certificates as a form of currency in place of Federal Reserve Notes.

Marrs also speculates this order was part of a larger plan by Kennedy to reduce the influence of the Federal Reserve by giving the Treasury more power to issue currency. The order was signed June 4, 1963. A few months later, of course, Kennedy was killed, and conspiracy theorists hypothesize a link between the murder and E.O. 11,110. They argue that the Federal Reserve was somehow involved in the assassination to protect its power over monetary policy.

The executive order modifies a pre-existing order issued by Harry Truman in 1951. E.O. 10,289 states "The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby designated and empowered to perform the following-described functions of the President without the approval, ratification, or other action of the President..." The order then lists tasks (a) through (h) which the Treasurer can now do without bothering the President. None of the powers assigned to the Treasury in E.O. 10,289 relate to money or to monetary policy. Kennedy's E.O. 11,110 then instructs that SECTION 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 9, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended (a) By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph (j): '(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C. 821(b)), to issue silver certificates
against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denominations of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption,' and (b) By revoking subparagraphs (b) and (c) of paragraph 2 thereof.

SECTION 2. The amendments made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue any may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.
John F. Kennedy, THE WHITE HOUSE, June 4, 1963.

To understand exactly what Kennedy's order was trying to do, we must understand the purpose of the legislation which gave the order its underlying authority. The Agricultural Adjustment Act of May 12, 1933 (ch. 25, 48 Stat 51) to which Kennedy refers permits the President to issue silver certificates in various denominations (mostly $1, $2, $5, and $10) and in any total volume so long as the Treasury has enough silver on hand to redeem the certificates for a specific quantity and fineness of silver and that the total volume of such currency does not exceed $3 billion. The Silver Purchase Act of 1934 (ch. 674,48 Stat 1178) also grants this power to the Treasury Secretary subject to similar limitations. Nowhere in the text of the order is a quantity of money mentioned, so it is unclear how Marrs arrived at his $4.2 billion figure. Moreover, the President could not have authorized such a large issue because it would have exceeded the statutory limit.2

As economic activity grew in the fifties and sixties, the public demand for low denomination currency grew, increasing the Treasury's need for silver to back additional certificate issues and to mint new coins (dimes, quarters, half-dollars). However, during the late fifties the price of silver began to rise and reached the point that the market value of the silver contained in the coins and backing the certificates was greater than the face value of the money itself.2

To conserve the Treasury's silver needs, the Silver Purchase Act and related measures were repealed by Congress in 1963 with Public Law 88-36. Following the repeal, only the President could authorize new silver certificate issues, and no longer the Treasury Secretary. The law, signed by Kennedy himself, also permits the Federal Reserve to issue small denomination bills to replace the outgoing silver certificates (prior to the act, the Fed could only issue Federal Reserve Notes in larger denominations). The Treasury's shrinking silver stock could then be used to mint coins only and not have to back currency. The repeal left only the President with the authority to issue silver certificates, however it did permit him to delegate this authority. E.O. 11,110 does this by transferring the authority from the President to the Treasury Secretary.2

E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order.

The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them. In

October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely. The Coinage Act of 1965 (PL 89-81) ended the practice of using silver in most U.S. coins, and in 1968 Congress ended the redeemability of silver certificates (PL 90-29).

E.O. 11,110 was never reversed by President Johnson and remained on the books until 1987 when there was a general cleaning-up of executive orders (E.O. 12,608, 9/9/87). However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.2

In summary, E.O. 11,110 did not create new authority to issue additional silver certificates. In fact, its intention was to ease the process for their removal so that small denomination Federal Reserve Notes could replace them in accordance with a law Kennedy himself signed. If Kennedy had really sought to reduce Federal Reserve power, then why did he sign a bill that gave the Fed still more power?

Marrs also makes some other factual errors in his conspiracy tale that suggest he is not very familiar with the Federal Reserve or the financial system. He writes that a source of tension between the Federal Reserve and the Kennedy Administration was the Treasury's desire to allow banks to underwrite state and local government bonds, thereby weakening the "dominant" Federal Reserve banks. However, such a move, which was later permitted by Congress, would not have affected the Federal Reserve system because it had never been involved in underwriting bond issues.

Marrs also claims that Kennedy signed a bill that changed the backing of small denomination currency from silver to gold to "add strength to the weakened U.S. currency." This is completely false. U.S. currency has not been on the gold standard since 1934, and silver certificates, as their name suggests, had never been redeemable in anything but silver. In addition, U.S. currency was not "weak" during Kennedy's time: There had not been any significant inflation since the late forties, and the exchange rate value of the dollar was fixed according to the Bretton Woods agreement.

In the introduction to his book, Marrs advises the reader not to trust his book. This appears to be good advice.

References:
1. Marrs, Jim (1989), Crossfire: The Plot that Killed Kennedy, New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers.

2. Woodward, G. Thomas (1996), "Money and the Federal Reserve System: Myth and Reality," Congressional Research Service.

****

MMMmmmm Comments on this welcomed........

LongJohnSilver
London

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 13:20
Well, to be honest, Flaherty's claims didn't sit too well with me. First off, aside from painting Kennedy as a Fed puppet, Flaherty began by dissing a researcher that I happen to have a great deal of sincere respect for. I've read a lot of Jim Marr's research and have most of his books, though I haven't read the one Flaherty sites on the Kennedy assasination. Now and then in Marr's books I've caught a few places where I thought he made a mistake, but by in large, I think he is a fairly reliable author. He is not a sensationalist by any stretch of the imagination, and he has my respect and the respect of a good many other researchers who, like I, have previously read and researched much of the material that Marrs sites in his books.

Furthermore, I didn't know who in the hell Edward Flaherty was and had never heard of him before, so I googled him and found what appears to be his main body of work here…

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html

My opinion and comments? Okay, in a nutshell, I think Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. (Department of Economics College of Charleston, S.C.) is one of the thousands of Fed stooges that have been placed in the Economics Departments of colleges and universities all over the USA. I think he is teaching precisely what the Fed wants him to teach and I think as long as he goes on teaching it, his position as a professor of economics will be very secure.

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 13:55
LongJohnSilver, here's another little gem of so-called wisdom from Flaherty…

"Facts: McFadden was incorrect regarding the Fed costing the government money. However, later economic analysis agrees with him that Federal Reserve policy blunders had a substantial role in causing the Depression. However, his implication that this was done deliberately has no basis in fact. Moreover, for a dozen years prior to his rant, McFadden had been the chairman of the House subcommittee that oversaw the Federal Reserve. Why didn't he do anything to reform or abolish the Fed while he had the chance?"

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/Federal_Reserve.html

I've read McFadden's speeches and I've spent some time researching the man. IMO McFadden did his damndest to get congress to repel the Federal Reserve act, and all this at a time when the banking cartel was pulling every dirty trick in the book in the attempt to keep congress from abolishing the Fed. Most of what the Fed did seems to have amounted to financial, economic, and political blackmail. Flaherty attempts to pass McFadden off as a raving lunatic, and as far as I am concerned, Flaherty paints a picture that's a far cry from the truth.

"They have created a super state controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure." - Rep. Lewis McFadden, (D PA) Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee, 1914

"After WWI, Germany fell into the hands of the German International Bankers. Those bankers bought her and they now own her, lock, stock and barrel. They purchased her industries, they have mortgages on her soil, they control her production; they control all her public utilities. The International German Bankers have subsidized the present government of Germany and they have also supplied every dollar of the money Adolf Hitler has used in his lavish campaign to build up a threat to the government of Bruening. When Bruening fails to obey the orders of the German International Bankers, Hitler is brought forth to scare the Germans into submission. Through the Federal Reserve Board over thirty billions of dollars was pumped into Germany…You have all heard of the spending that has taken place in Germany…modernistic dwellings, her great planetariums, her gymnasiums, her swimming pools, her fine public highways, her perfect factories….All this was done with our money. All this was given to Germany through the Federal Reserve Board. The Federal Reserve Board has pumped so many billions of dollars into Germany that they dare not name the total." - Rep. Lewis T. McFadden (D PA), Chairman of the House Banking and Currency Committee, 1931, (spoken before Congress eight years before Hitler invaded Poland and duly entered into the Congressional Record.)

"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." - Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932

“The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is eager to enter into close relationship with the Bank for International Settlements....The conclusion is impossible to escape that the State and Treasury Departments are willing to pool the banking system of Europe and America, setting up a world financial power independent of and above the Government of the United States....The United States under present conditions will be transformed from the most active of manufacturing nations into a consuming and importing nation with a balance of trade against it.”- Rep. Louis McFadden - Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency quoted in the New York Times (June 1930)

Furthermore, I think there was much said in President Kennedy's speech on Freedom made shortly before he was murdered that suggests Professor Flaherty actually has his head up his arse...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1088157770996948291&q=JFK&total=12853&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=9

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 14:44
One of my favorite JFK quotes is the following…

"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House - with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone." - John F. Kennedy

It seems to me then, that all we really have to do is look at some of the things Jefferson said to know where President Kennedy really stood on things. I suspect all great men seek to follow in their hero's footsteps…

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" – Thomas Jefferson

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks...will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be ... The People cannot be safe without information. When the press is free, and every man is able to read, all is safe." - Thomas Jefferson

LongJohnSilver
3rd April 2008, 17:06
Well, to be honest, Flaherty's claims didn't sit too well with me. First off, aside from painting Kennedy as a Fed puppet, Flaherty began by dissing a researcher that I happen to have a great deal of sincere respect for. I've read a lot of Jim Marr's research and have most of his books, though I haven't read the one Flaherty sites on the Kennedy assasination. Now and then in Marr's books I've caught a few places where I thought he made a mistake, but by in large, I think he is a fairly reliable author. He is not a sensationalist by any stretch of the imagination, and he has my respect and the respect of a good many other researchers who, like I, have previously read and researched much of the material that Marrs sites in his books.

Furthermore, I didn't know who in the hell Edward Flaherty was and had never heard of him before, so I googled him and found what appears to be his main body of work here…

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html

My opinion and comments? Okay, in a nutshell, I think Edward Flaherty, Ph.D. (Department of Economics College of Charleston, S.C.) is one of the thousands of Fed stooges that have been placed in the Economics Departments of colleges and universities all over the USA. I think he is teaching precisely what the Fed wants him to teach and I think as long as he goes on teaching it, his position as a professor of economics will be very secure.
Kelly,

Thankyou for this response....

I have no doubt on which side of the fence Mr Flaherty sits....the position he takes and his dismissive tone are obvious....but the substantive remarks he makes about OE 11110 are what I would like to have further clarified.

Likewise, the opposing positions of McFadden's and JFK....Kennedy's speech against covert influences and the erosion of civil liberties is probably my favourite public speech of all time and one of the finest and most relevant things a person is ever likely to hear....and yes, it is clear that JFK is speaking very much from the position of understanding his inheritance of Jefferson (it is Jefferson's face on the 1963 Red Seal $2 Greenback BTW)...but if the information wars are to be won lets deal with what Mr Flaherty claims to be Facts...it is whether they are FACTS or not that interest me. He may well be a Fed stooge, disseminating disinformation like all the rest of them...but it seems to me OE11110 needs to be disected carefully and I would welcome that careful disection. If he's wrong or misguided on the points he makes I would like to know.

The point is this, there were many involved in the assassination of Jack Kennedy...if the links between his attrition with the Fed were shown conclusively to be a causative factor that surely is as powerful a truth as showing conclusively that 911 is an inside job.

best of all things to you....

LongJohn
London

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 17:50
LongJohn! do you know what you are actually asking? This stuff is written in legalese and doublespeak! Maybe everybody who reads it can try to help in figuring it out, but what you have asked is no easy task.

As far as I can tell, Kennedy's executive order 11110 amended executive order 10289. What Kennedy wrote seems to go into 10289, paragraph 1 after subparagraph j. Kennedy's order also canceled out (revoked) subparagraph b and c in paragraph 2. To understand what all of it means, I guess we have to dissect executive order 10289 with a fine tooth comb. I'll have to post the text of order 10289 in the following post, because it is so dang long and full of doublespeak, I can't fit it all into the currant post.

So, Here is the text of Kennedy's executive order 1110 which I pulled it off this site.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/executiveorder11110.htm

Executive Order 11110 AMENDMENT OF EXECUTIVE ORDER NO. 10289
AS AMENDED, RELATING TO THE PERFORMANCE OF CERTAIN FUNCTIONS AFFECTING THE DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 301 of title 3 of the United States Code, it is ordered as follows:
Section 1. Executive Order No. 10289 of September 19, 1951, as amended, is hereby further amended-
By adding at the end of paragraph 1 thereof the following subparagraph (j):

(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C.821(b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denomination of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption

and --

By revoking subparagraphs (b) and (c) of paragraph 2 thereof.
Sec. 2. The amendments made by this Order shall not affect any act done, or any right accruing or accrued or any suit or proceeding had or commenced in any civil or criminal cause prior to the date of this Order but all such liabilities shall continue and may be enforced as if said amendments had not been made.

John F. Kennedy The White House, June 4, 1963.

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 17:52
And here is the text of executive order 10289, which I pulled off this site…

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/10289.html#

Executive Order 10289--Providing for the performance of certain functions of the President by the Secretary of the Treasury
Source: The provisions of Executive Order 10289 of Sept. 17, 1951, appear at 16 FR 9499, 3 CFR, 1949-1953 Comp., p. 787, unless otherwise noted.
By virtue of the authority vested in me by section 1 of the act of August 8, 1950, 64 Stat. 419 (Public Law 673, 81st Congress), and as President of the United States, it is ordered as follows:
1. The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby designated and empowered to perform the following-described functions of the President without the approval, ratification, or other action of the President:
(a) The authority vested in the President by section 1 of the act of August 1, 1914, c. 223, 38 Stat. 609, 623, as amended (19 U.S.C. 2), (1) to rearrange, by consolidation or otherwise, the several customs-collection districts, (2) to discontinue ports of entry by abolishing the same and establishing others in their stead, and (3) to change from time to time the location of the headquarters in any customs-collection district as the needs of the service may require.
(b) The authority vested in the President by section 1 of the Anti-Smuggling Act of August 5, 1935, c. 438, 49 Stat. 517 (19 U.S.C. 1701), (1) to find and declare that at any place or within any area on the high seas adjacent to but outside customs waters any vessel or vessels hover or are being kept off the coast of the United States and that, by virtue of the presence of any such vessel or vessels at such place or within such area, the unlawful introduction or removal into or from the United States of any merchandise or person is being, or may be, occasioned, promoted, or threatened, (2) to find and declare that certain waters on the high seas are in such proximity to such vessel or vessels that such unlawful introduction or removal of merchandise or persons may be carried on by or to or from such vessel or vessels, and (3) to find and declare that, within any customs-enforcement area, the circumstances no longer exist which gave rise to the declaration of such area as a customs-enforcement area.
(c) The authority vested in the President by section 1 of the Act of August 26, 1985, Public Law 98-89, 97 Stat. 510 (46 U.S.C. 3101); to suspend the provisions of law requiring the inspection of foreign-built vessels admitted to American registry.
(d) The authority vested in the President by section 5 of the act of May 28, 1908, c. 212, 35 Stat. 425, as amended (46 U.S.C. Appendix 104), to determine (as a prerequisite to the extension of reciprocal privileges by the Commissioner of Customs) that yachts used and employed exclusively as pleasure vessels and belonging to any resident of the United States are allowed to arrive at and depart from any foreign port and to cruise in the waters of such port without entering or clearing at the custom-house thereof and without the payment of any charges for entering or clearing, dues, duty per ton, tonnage taxes, or charges for cruising licenses.
(e) The authority vested in the President by section 2 of the act of March 24, 1908, c. 96, 35 Stat. 46 (46 U.S.C. Appendix 134), to name the hospital ships to which section 1 of the said act shall apply to indicate the time when the exemptions thereby provided for shall begin and end.
(f) The authority vested in the President by section 4223 of the Revised Statutes, as amended (46 U.S.C. Appendix 141), (1) to declare that--upon satisfactory proof being given by the government of any foreign nation that no discriminating duties of tonnage or imposts are imposed or levied in the ports of such nation upon vessels wholly belonging to citizens of the United States, or upon the produce, manufactures, or merchandise imported in the same from the United States or from any foreign country--the foreign discriminating duties of tonnage and impost within the United States are suspended and discontinued, so far as respects the vessels of such foreign nation, and the produce, manufactures, or merchandise imported into the United States from such foreign nation, or from any other foreign country, and (2) to suspend in part the operation of section 4219 of the Revised Statutes, as amended (46 U.S.C. Appendix 121), and section IV, J, subsection 1 of the act of October 3, 1913, c. 16, 38 Stat. 195, as amended (46 U.S.C. Appendix 146), so that foreign vessels from a country imposing partial discriminating tonnage duties upon American vessels, or partial discriminating import duties upon American merchandise, may enjoy in our ports the identical privileges which the same class of American vessels and merchandise may enjoy in such country: Provided, that prior to the issuance of an order of the Secretary of the Treasury suspending and discontinuing (wholly or in part) discriminating tonnage duties, imposts, and import duties within the United States, the Department of State shall obtain and furnish to the Secretary of the Treasury the proof required by the said section 4228, as amended as the basis for that order.
(g) The authority vested in the President by section 3650 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 3650) to establish convenient collection districts (for the purpose of assessing, levying, and collecting the taxes provided by the internal revenue laws), and from time to time to alter such districts.
(h) The authority which is now vested in the President by section 2564 (b) of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. 2564 (b)), and which on and after January 1, 1955, will be vested in the President by section 4735 (b) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954, to issue, in accordance with the provisions of the said section 2564 (b) or 4735 (b), as the case may be, orders providing for the registration and the imposition of a special tax upon all persons in the Canal Zone who produce, import compound, deal in, dispense, sell, distribute, or give away narcotic drugs.
(i) The authority vested in the President by Section 5318 of the Revised Statutes, as amended (19 U.S.C. 540), to employ suitable vessels other than Coast Guard cutters in the execution of laws providing for the collection of duties on imports and tonnage;
[Para. 1 amended by EO 10583 of Dec. 18, 1954, 19 FR 8725, 3 CFR, 1954-1958 Comp., p. 232; EO 10882 of July 18, 1960, 25 FR 6869, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 413; EO 11110 of June 4, 1963, 28 FR 5605, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 770; EO 12608 of Sept. 9, 1987, 52 FR 34617, 3 CFR, 1987 Comp., p. 245]
2. The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby designated and empowered to perform without the approval, ratification, or other action of the President the following functions which have heretofore, under the respective provisions of law cited, required the approval of the President in connection with their performance by the Secretary of the Treasury:
(a) The authority vested in the Secretary of the Treasury by section 6 of the act of July 8, 1937, c. 444, 50 Stat. 480 (5 U.S.C. 134c), to make rules and regulations necessary for the execution of the functions vested in the Secretary of the Treasury by the said act, as amended.
(b) [Revoked]
(c) [Revoked]
(d) [Revoked]
(e) The authority vested in the Secretary of the Treasury by section 1 of Title II of the act of June 15, 1917, c. 30, 40 Stat. 220 (50 U.S.C. 191), to make rules and regulations governing the anchorage and movement of any vessel, foreign or domestic, in the territorial waters of the United States.
(f) [Revoked]
[Para. 2 amended by EO 11110 of June 4, 1963, 28 FR 5605, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 770; EO 11825 of Dec. 31, 1974, 40 FR 1003, 3 CFR, 1971-1975 Comp., p. 929; EO 12608 of Sept. 9, 1987, 52 FR 34617, 3 CFR, 1987 Comp., p. 245]
3. (a) The Secretary of the Treasury and the Postmaster General are hereby designated and empowered jointly to prescribe without the approval of the President regulations, under section 1 of the act of July 8, 1937, c. 444, 50 Stat. 479 (5 U.S.C. 134), governing the shipment of valuables by the executive departments, independent establishments, agencies, wholly-owned corporations, officers, and employees of the United States.
(b) The Postmaster General is hereby designated and empowered to exercise without the approval, ratification, or other action of the President the authority vested in the President by section 504 (b) of title 18 of the United States Code to approve regulations issued by the Secretary of the Treasury under the authority of the said section 504 (b) (relating to the printing, publishing, or importation, or the making or importation of the necessary plates for such printing or publishing, of postage stamps for philatelic purposes), and to approve any amendment or repeal of any of such regulations by the Secretary of the Treasury.
[Para. 3 amended by EO 10583 of Dec. 18, 1954, 19 FR 8725, 3 CFR, 1954-1958 Comp., p. 232]
4. As used in this order, the term "functions" embraces duties, powers, responsibilities, authority, or discretion, and the term "perform" may be construed to mean "exercise".
5. All actions heretofore taken by the President in respect of the matters affected by this order and in force at the time of the issuance of this order, including regulations prescribed by the President in respect of such matters, shall, except as they may be inconsistent with the provisions of this order, remain in effect until amended, modified, or revoked pursuant to the authority conferred by this order.

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 18:00
but the substantive remarks he makes about OE 11110 are what I would like to have further clarified.


Yeah? Well me too! Look at that crap! How in the hell can ANYBODY figure out what the law means? Have at it! Good luck! :) I'll give it a go too, but hey man, I am NOT doing this all on my own! Gads. I'll research just about anything, but I am not a masochist!

Who writes this stuff, anyway? It would be sooooo much simpler if the powers that be would decide that laws could actually be written in plain English.

Kelly
3rd April 2008, 19:52
Okay LongJohn, here is the direct quote (apparently) from Jim Marrs book, Crossfire.

"Another overlooked aspect of Kennedy's attempt to reform American society involves money. Kennedy apparently reasoned that by returning to the constitution, which states that only Congress shall coin and regulate money, the soaring national debt could be reduced by not paying interest to the bankers of the Federal Reserve System, who print paper money then loan it to the government at interest. He moved in this area on June 4, 1963, by signing Executive Order 11110 which called for the issuance of $4,292,893,815 in United States Notes through the U.S. Treasury rather than the traditional Federal Reserve System. That same day, Kennedy signed a bill changing the backing of one and two dollar bills from silver to gold, adding strength to the weakened U.S. currency."

http://www.theclassactionsuit.com/jfk.htm

Everybody seems to be quoting this same passage from Marrs book, or at least they seem to be in most of 20 or so sites that I have just been to. Flaherty's objection is that he says he has no idea where Marrs got the figure, $4,292,893,815.

Well, I do at least have a pretty good idea how Marrs would have come up with that specific sum.

Kennedy's order 11110 orders the treasury to create small denomination silver certificates to the amount of silver held in the Treasury Dept vaults. The Treasury Department is required by law to publish both it's silver and gold holdings. I know this is a fact because I just looked up how much gold the Treasury Department and Fed claim they have in their vaults currently. (See page 17 on the "Doublespeak 101" thread.) Marrs, who does some serious and reliable research, must have had access to information stating the amount of silver held by the treasury in 1963 when EO 11110 became law. The sum of $4,292,893,815 would have therefore been derived from the book value of the amount of silver held by the Treasury Dept.

Flaherty claims "E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order. The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them. In October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely. The Coinage Act of 1965 (PL 89-81) ended the practice of using silver in most U.S. coins, and in 1968 Congress ended the redeemability of silver certificates (PL 90-29)."

Well, I don't see how Flaherty can possibly make that claim. The order states…

"The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C.821(b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denomination of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption."

In other words, Kennedy told the Treasury department to issue silver backed currancy to the FULL amount of silver the Treasury held in its vaults! It doesn't look like he minced words to me.

Furthermore, Flaherty states, "October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely." Well, that's true, but Kennedy was killed on November 22, 1963, so I can certainly see how people might conclude that the Fed issued orders to stop printing silver certificates within 11 months after his death. Who else would have been able to tell the Treasury what to do? As far as I can tell (and I am no lawyer) though the treasury stopped PRINTING silver certificates, the LEGAL authority to do so doesn't seem to exist.

Flaherty also states, "However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.2" and I have no idea how Flaherty can say that, because if EO 11110 had actually been repealed, we would see that listed at the government site, which indicates that 11110 Amends EO 10289 but there is NOTHING that I can find that suggests 11110 was ever revoked, repealed or superseded by another legal document.

(http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-orders-12.html)

So to sum it up, it sure looks to me like Flaherty is just full of crap.

FedFixNix
3rd April 2008, 21:02
More good work by Kelly; so far in every thread here I've seen very little with which I could or would take issue.

I have made it plain throughout my life that Thomas Jefferson ranks at the very top of my list of heroes, along with Jesus, (and I am not an orthodox "Christian"), Gandhi, Moses, Franklin, Shakespeare, JS, Mill, and a host of other influential thinkers, philosophers and teachers that have shaped the better parts of our civilization. The list would fill up several versions of the classics in Mortimer Adler's Great Books of the Western world.

Kennedy was one of the most inspiring presidents of our age, probably because of his love for Jeffersonian ideals. I share that love.

A couple of Jeffersonian quote to add to your list. I have dozens of great ones, including all the ones you posted.

"It has long, however, been my opinion, and I have never shrunk from its expression...that the germ of dissolution of our federal government is in the constitution of the federal Judiciary;...working like gravity by night and by day, gaining a little today and a little tomorrow, and advancing its noiseless
step like a thief, over the field of jurisdiction, until all shall be usurped." --Thomas Jefferson

This one is a little more debatable, as all branches have been corrupted at different times and degrees. Still, the Supreme Court is responsible for corporations becoming deathless superCitizens, whose rights trump those of natural persons, and for supporting the power of private banks to take over our government. With the exception of a few really great justices the SCOTUS has been used as an instrument of the wealthy elite special interests.

"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution." -- Thomas Jefferson (fair copy of the drafts of the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798)

What he is saying here of course is that we should be governed by laws rather than men, and that even those of the highest office should be bound by those laws. Of course it is necessary to have a judiciary that fairly upholds those laws, and applies justice without exemption or favor, and that has too seldom been the case.

The last is my favorite, and my adopted motto:

I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. ~ Thomas Jefferson

I think he meant over the mind, body and soul as well; or perhaps he just took it for granted that we all know that the mind is the gateway to both body and soul. :-)

One thing is certain: The battle between good and evil, light and dark, is still very much in progress, both in the individual human heart and in our civilization.

FedFixNix
3rd April 2008, 21:21
Flaherty also states, "However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.2" and I have no idea how Flaherty can say that, because if EO 11110 had actually been repealed, we would see that listed at the government site, which indicates that 11110 Amends EO 10289 but there is NOTHING that I can find that suggests 11110 was ever revoked, repealed or superseded by another legal document.

Since the Nixon Fed took the US off the silver backed currency in 1971, I don't see how 11110 could remain relevant. But then I think the whole mess since the creation of the Fed in 1913 is totally unconstitutional, as well as criminal. We are about to witness the catastrophic results of that criminality.

(http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-orders-12.html)

So to sum it up, it sure looks to me like Flaherty is just full of crap.

I've been researching these things for quite a while, without finding anything conclusive. I absolutely know Flaherty is perverting the truth in some of his statements, which leads me to rate his veracity at nil, but he could be right about the order. I've heard convincing arguments both ways.

I'm not going to take the time to comb through the statutes because there is about 20 times more evidence that points to complicity of the JFK murder than I would need with proving or disproving the silver thing. His speech shortly before his death promising to reveal shocking high level government (or Fed) plots is among them.

Some day we will know the whole truth. For now we will have to go with a preponderance of evidence.

Money as Debt: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

LongJohnSilver
3rd April 2008, 22:34
Yep, dang legalese...

thankyou Kelly and FedFixNix for these contributions.....

I have no particular interest in defending Flaherty....as I say I can see where he's coming from....it's just that I don't see what you've written disproves him...

Flaherty's contention, to quote from his words in my previous post was -

...during the late fifties the price of silver began to rise and reached the point that the market value of the silver contained in the coins and backing the certificates was greater than the face value of the money itself.

To conserve the Treasury's silver needs, the Silver Purchase Act and related measures were repealed by Congress in 1963 with Public Law 88-36.

Following the repeal, only the President could authorize new silver certificate issues, and no longer the Treasury Secretary. The law, signed by Kennedy himself, also permits the Federal Reserve to issue small denomination bills to replace the outgoing silver certificates (prior to the act, the Fed could only issue Federal Reserve Notes in larger denominations). The Treasury's shrinking silver stock could then be used to mint coins only and not have to back currency. The repeal left only the President with the authority to issue silver certificates, however it did permit him to delegate this authority.

E.O. 11,110 does this by transferring the authority from the President to the Treasury Secretary.

E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order.

The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them."

....So, as you can see by inserting the following clause ...

(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C.821(b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denomination of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption

into EO 10289 at the end of Paragraph 1 (the following subparagraph (j): )
the meaning becomes....

1. The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby designated and empowered to perform the following-described functions of the President without the approval, ratification, or other action of the President:

(j) The authority vested in the President by paragraph (b) of section 43 of the Act of May 12, 1933, as amended (31 U.S.C.821(b)), to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury not then held for redemption of any outstanding silver certificates, to prescribe the denomination of such silver certificates, and to coin standard silver dollars and subsidiary silver currency for their redemption.

...transfers to the Treasury the right to issue the Silver certificates without Presidential approval.

Public Law 88-36 was the law JFK signed and was known as the Silver Purchase Act.

My understanding is that this Act now made JFK the only person who could issue the Silver Certificates...which had been issued for many years....EO 11110 therefore gave the power back to the Treasury.

The copy of EO 10289 you've copied above appears to have (b) and (c) of Paragraph 2 already revoked.

With regard to what Marrs say about gold...Flaherty states ....QUOTE Marrs also claims that Kennedy signed a bill that changed the backing of small denomination currency from silver to gold to "add strength to the weakened U.S. currency." This is completely false. U.S. currency has not been on the
gold standard since 1934, and silver certificates, as their name suggests, had never been redeemable in anything but silver. In addition, U.S. currency was not "weak" during Kennedy's time: There had not been any significant
inflation since the late forties, and the exchange rate value of the dollar was fixed according to the Bretton Woods agreement. ENDQUOTE

That last item may well be Flaherty being pedantic but ...in the light of what we are talking about surely truth is important.

The ClassActionSuit you quote states...On June 4, 1963, President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy signed a Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, which stripped the Federal Reserve Banking System of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest. This decree meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the U.S. government could introduce new money into circulation based on the silver bullion physically held therein. As a result, more than $4 trillion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated. Kennedy knew that if the silver backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes. By giving the U.S. Treasury the Constitutional authority to coin U.S. money once again, EO 11110 would thus prevent the national debt from rising due to "usury" that the American people are charged for "borrowing" (i.e., using) FRN's.

...but I see no evidence of these claims. The Silver Certicates had been printed for years...the Greenback Treasury Notes were being printed regardless of EO 11110 and as I said in previous post JFK seems to have printed alot of those...I am not disputing JFK was engaged in a battle with the Fed.....I just don't see that EO11110 is it.

I know JFK made the claim just days before his death about revealing how the good office of the President was being used....it's that truth I'm interested in digging up.

I am curious to know if there are other forum contributors who have insights into exactly what was going on in 1963 with the gradual removal from US currency of the Silver Certificates and the pressures JFK may have been experiencing at that time wth the demonetising of silver and the parallel issuance of the United States Red Seal Notes. There does seem to be a contradiction there that suggest JFK was locked in a battle. And it may be that if he was pressured or manipulated into signing PL 88-36 The Silver Purchase Act then EO11110 was a way of getting the ability to print the Silver Certificates back into the hands of the Treasury should anything ever happen to him and the Presidency fall into the hands of another....

There may well be a story here ....I think there is...there's certainly alot of smoke....but I'm not sure it's just about oft-quoted EO 11110.....and particularly the way its quoted in most of the conspiracy theories....

but...anyway....there are more recent Executive Orders you guys over there are going to have to contend with....and it looks very grim indeed ...in the UK our civil liberties have been eroded considerably since 9/11 but nothing like what is happening over there...and here we are so used to high prices that fuel and food inflation are hitting us but not yet as hard as you.

If I was living in the US I would seriously consider emigration.....If you can....emigration....is a very useful survival tool....

....or ten years supply of food....the world is just a few weeks away fro running out of wheat...but in the face of all those totalitarian EOs will a storehouse of food make much difference ? still, better to stash it away than not to....but if those come Exec Orders come to pass the US will resemble the China of 40 years ago....agrarian....and herded....but growing poisonous GMO food.

China will take GMO food but in Europe we have so far just about managed to keep it out.

and then, if things don't get that bad, there's always silver...........we just have the market manipulations to contend with....the last few weeks of "correction" have shown us that.......

Keep up the good work, Kelly and FedFixNix....this is one of the best forums around.....

there are some of us on this side of the Atlantic that know what's happening
and support you. The truth will out...

LJS
London

JaySpizzy
4th April 2008, 00:49
A few words about EO11110,




...during the late fifties the price of silver began to rise and reached the point that the market value of the silver contained in the coins and backing the certificates was greater than the face value of the money itself.

Note that this phenomenon happens because of a constant inflating currency, for which the Fed is completely responsible.


To conserve the Treasury's silver needs, the Silver Purchase Act and related measures were repealed by Congress in 1963 with Public Law 88-36. [QUOTE]

This seems plain wrong. Anyone do a search on the Silver Purchse Act? Written and repealed way before Kennedy, and even the Fed for that matter, was born. We're talking 1890s.

[QUOTE](prior to the act, the Fed could only issue Federal Reserve Notes in larger denominations).

This , again, seems to be misinformation. The Fed only gained the power to isssue FRNs in smaller denominations in Kennedy's administration?



The Treasury's shrinking silver stock could then be used to mint coins only and not have to back currency.

There is no difference between the amount of silver needed to mint a 5 dollar coin and the amount of silver needed to mint a five dollar coin and print a five dollar treasury note. That's what backing a currency means. This is where the argument gets completely trashed.


E.O. 11,110 does this by transferring the authority from the President to the Treasury Secretary.

Transfer? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the authority seemed to be expanded to the office of the Treasurer Secretary, not removed from the president. This is important.

E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order.

Still very important, and not to be belittled. If there was a plan to increase the issuance of silver backed treasuries as Marr suggests, it would be important to make this type of order, delegating this power to free the president's time, and insure the process would continue even if he was taken out of the picture.


The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them.

Now this is really perplexing. It is based, i would imagine, on the assumption that minting coins would decrease the amount of silver certificates in circulation. Spurious.

Public Law 88-36 was the law JFK signed and was known as the Silver Purchase Act.

Again, if anyone finds anything different under the Silver Purchase Act, feel free to correct me but as far as I know, it was an Act passed in 1893 forcing Congress to purchase a certain quantity of Silver per year. It was repealed a few years later.


With regard to what Marrs say about gold...Flaherty states ....QUOTE Marrs also claims that Kennedy signed a bill that changed the backing of small denomination currency from silver to gold to "add strength to the weakened U.S. currency." This is completely false. U.S. currency has not been on the
gold standard since 1934, and silver certificates, as their name suggests, had never been redeemable in anything but silver. In addition, U.S. currency was not "weak" during Kennedy's time: There had not been any significant
inflation since the late forties, and the exchange rate value of the dollar was fixed according to the Bretton Woods agreement. ENDQUOTE

That last item may well be Flaherty being pedantic but ...in the light of what we are talking about surely truth is important.

Flaherty seems to be constructing nonsensical arguments all based in fiction, with the end of shedding just enough doubt in the mind of investigators of the topic to stopp persuing this line of questioning.


The ClassActionSuit you quote states...On June 4, 1963, President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy signed a Presidential decree, Executive Order 11110, which stripped the Federal Reserve Banking System of its power to loan money to the United States Federal Government at interest.

Strictly speaking, this is false. The Federal Reserve's power to produce FRNs was never removed, rather, a silver backed currency was introduced that would compete with it. What happens, though, when a currency backed by a commodity competes with one that isn't?


more than $4 trillion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated.

This, claim would be very difficult to verify, if someone wanted it hidden.


Kennedy knew that if the silver backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes.

This is the point. We see that the main characteristic of the unbacked FRNs is their value is constantly diminishing. The difference in the value between the FRN and silver backed currency would become so quickly noticeable to the public, that in short order, everyone would be clamoring for the silver backed certificates and dumping the FRNs. Real, real trouble for the Fed.


By giving the U.S. Treasury the Constitutional authority to coin U.S. money once again, EO 11110 would thus prevent the national debt from rising due to "usury" that the American people are charged for "borrowing" (i.e., using) FRN's.

...but I see no evidence of these claims.

Well, that's fair. But to me its quite obvious. Flaherty's comments, and i read the rest of it have absolutely no foundation. Its just that no one has taken the time to honestly examine them.


But all is not lost for Flaherty, in order to make his arguments stick, he can still
1) Provide proof that Silver certificates were issued before 1963
2) Produce this "new" Silver Purchase Act
3) Explain why very little was minted in the way of silver coins after 1963. Even US dimes and Quarters, which were 90% silver before 1964, were stopped by that year.


but...anyway....there are more recent Executive Orders you guys over there are going to have to contend with....and it looks very grim indeed ...in the UK our civil liberties have been eroded considerably since 9/11 but nothing like what is happening over there...and here we are so used to high prices that fuel and food inflation are hitting us but not yet as hard as you.

Yes you are dead on. We have to think about our basic rights, and wake up. I am appalled at the laws they are passing, and shocked that most of my countrymen don't care. As for emigration, I do think about it - alot.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 02:51
I might add to the above that I just did a Google search typing in "PL 97-258, EO 11110" and on the entire web, there are only seven piddly pages that come up. Six of those pages are citing Flaherty's comments and the other page is Wikipedia, which is a public encyclopedia that can be written and amended by anybody. Wiki reports… "The authoritative basis for the Order was nullified (citation needed) in 1982 with the passage of Public Law 97-258." The fact that the citation is not in evidence appears to be relevant, because I can't find it in the Government Archives either, so maybe whoever wrote this was again, quoting Flaherty.

I have read several articles over the last couple of years while researching the legality of taxing wages and labor, stating that the Wiki people have noticed that their site is being changed (by the same mysterious group of unnamed people) whenever a hot topic has come up again and again that was considered "conspiracy related" material, and the last I heard, these things were "under investigation" at Wikipedia.

Wiki also states, "The Order was never directly reversed. However, Section 1(j) of Executive Order 10289, which was added by Section 1(a) of Executive Order 11110, was revoked when Ronald Reagan signed Executive Order 12608 in 1987." Again, if EO 11110 had actually been revoked and superseded by Regan's executive order, one would logically think that fact would be stated on the Government Archives site, because when another EO or bill revokes, amends or supersedes a previously written order, the Government Archive pages points it out.

Then I looked up all the Executive Orders that related to the treasury department.

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/index-t.html and

http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/executive-order/10289.html

"[Para. 1 amended by EO 10583 of Dec. 18, 1954, 19 FR 8725, 3 CFR, 1954-1958 Comp., p. 232; EO 10882 of July 18, 1960, 25 FR 6869, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 413; EO 11110 of June 4, 1963, 28 FR 5605, 3 CFR, 1959-1963 Comp., p. 770; EO 12608 of Sept. 9, 1987, 52 FR 34617, 3 CFR, 1987 Comp., p. 245]"

Here we do find that EO 10289 was "amended" (not "revoked") by EO 12608.

Eventually I got to this Government Archive page

http://search.archives.gov/query.html?charset=iso-8859-1&nh=10&col=1arch&qc=1arch+2pres&qt=EO+12608&st=1

And this is the point where I threw in the towel, but if you want to go on looking, have at it. Regan's EO 12609 of 9/9/87 appears to have been a mammoth EO that reviewed all previous executive orders from day one.

The point being that if EO 11110 was EVER changed, it does not appear to have happened until 1987, which was 24 years AFTER the Kennedy assassination! Obviously, whatever happened in 1987 does not change the fact that Kennedy did try to back the dollar with silver and was assassinated shortly thereafter, at which point "somebody" ordered the Treasury Dept. to stop issuing the silver certificates that were required by law when Kennedy wrote EO 11110.

Therefore, I still maintain that Flaherty's attempt to debunk the fact that Kennedy was indeed attempting to take power and control away from the Fed is simply disinformation.

When, as President of the United States, Kennedy personally demanded the dollar be backed by silver and the Treasury Department issue silver certificates, Kennedy was not only taking steps to take back the power of the Government to issue its own debt free money, which is the power granted the Government, NOT THE FED, by the constitution, Kennedy was ALSO stepping on Fed toes, because the Fed had been actively demonetizing silver and gold for years.

The facts are self-evident. Kennedy's assignation took place just ten months after he issued the order, and ten days after he made this statement…"The high office of President has been used to format a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office must inform the citizen of his plight."

I'd say from the looks of things there seems to be AMPLE evidence that the Fed had motive to murder of Kennedy. Probably the most damning evidence is the fact that SOMEBODY ordered the Treasury Department to STOP printing silver certificates in the year following Kennedy's assassination and no executive order was written that legally amended or revoked EO 11110 that would allow that. The only people who could have had the power to get the Treasury Department to stop printing those silver certificates and take them out of circulation would have been the Federal Reserve Bank.

I would also say that if there has ever been "a plot to destroy the American's freedom," then we have certainly all seen it by now. What the banker's plot has done to America since the moment we tried to untangle ourselves from England is insane, obvious, and letal and must be addressed if this country is to survive.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 03:25
JaySpizzy said...

Strictly speaking, this is false. The Federal Reserve's power to produce FRNs was never removed, rather, a silver backed currency was introduced that would compete with it. What happens, though, when a currency backed by a commodity competes with one that isn't?


Quote:
more than $4 trillion in United States Notes were brought into circulation in $2 and $5 denominations. $10 and $20 United States Notes were never circulated but were being printed by the Treasury Department when Kennedy was assassinated.

This, claim would be very difficult to verify, if someone wanted it hidden.


Quote:
Kennedy knew that if the silver backed United States Notes were widely circulated, they would have eliminated the demand for Federal Reserve Notes.

This is the point. We see that the main characteristic of the unbacked FRNs is their value is constantly diminishing. The difference in the value between the FRN and silver backed currency would become so quickly noticeable to the public, that in short order, everyone would be clamoring for the silver backed certificates and dumping the FRNs. Real, real trouble for the Fed.



This is excatly the point I have been trying to make over on the Doublespeak 101 thread. If you have two $100 bills, and one of them is an FRN backed by nothing, and one of them is a silver certificate redeemable by silver and guaranteed so by the treasury, which bill would you rather have? If you take the FRN back to the treasury, you get another piece of pretty paper, but that silver certificate can be traded in for silver. I think it's a big "oh duh!" don't you?

I tried to make that analogy in the "wampum and bird feathers" post over on Doublespeak, but it seemed to fall on deaf ears.

This is why I maintain that in a world where international trade goes on, the whole world has to decide to either print paper money backed by nothing, or money backed by a tangible asset with an intrinsic value. But I don't think the world can have it both ways. I absolutely believe in an asset backed currancy, because it would mean that a country can print no more money beyond the amount of asset stored by a country's treasury, and I think that is the ONLY thing that would prevent people from madly printing money like the Fed has.

FedFixNix has also stated he wants an asset backed currancy, but he doesn't want it to be silver or gold. So, one more time, Nixie, ol buddy ol pal, I am going to ask you again, if it's not a PM backed currancy, then what do you suggest the asset should be?

Like it or not, we live in the real world and everybody has to trade. This isn't an issue that just involves just the US anymore. Just about every country in the world today is experiencing serious inflation, and ultimately inflation robs from the poor and middle class of any country and steals the wealth of the people, while the rich get only richer.

I'd really like to see a level playing field for everyone's sake. It's not just America that is at stake. There are a lot of people starving in third world nations today, and two of the biggest reasons that is going on are directly related to currency and farm subsidies.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 04:29
LongJohn said

I am curious to know if there are other forum contributors who have insights into exactly what was going on in 1963 with the gradual removal from US currency of the Silver Certificates and the pressures JFK may have been experiencing at that time wth the demonetising of silver and the parallel issuance of the United States Red Seal Notes. There does seem to be a contradiction there that suggest JFK was locked in a battle. And it may be that if he was pressured or manipulated into signing PL 88-36 The Silver Purchase Act then EO11110 was a way of getting the ability to print the Silver Certificates back into the hands of the Treasury should anything ever happen to him and the Presidency fall into the hands of another....


I don't know if it is possible to realistically relate what happened in the Kennedy assassination specifically to currency issues. You've got to remember 1962 and the Bay of Pigs. We were on the brink of war with Cuba, and the military-industrial complex, which was in cahoots with the Fed from day one, was gung ho on starting another war. Though I was just a kid at the time, Kennedy pulled one of the biggest bluffs in all of history. His actions ultimately prevented a disastrous war and you've got to remember, the bankers love wars because wars mean the country has to borrow tons of money from them. Historically, the bankers have financed every war America has ever been in.

Kennedy was stepping on toes. He didn't take the advice of the military advisors, and by not doing so, the US didn't have to go into debt to the Fed. We didn't owe the Fed a dime back then, as I recall. We had no Federal debt at all when Kennedy was in office. Based upon what we know about the Fed today, I think it is quite reasonable to suspect they had an intense dislike for JFK. The military-industrial complex is what it is. They make money off of war. Bankers are who they are. War is their biggest profit maker.

The people all breathed a big sigh of relief, I can certainly remember that. People had been scared to death we were on the brink of a nuclear war. Thank god it didn't happen. Never-the-less, the fact is the bankers and the military-industrialists were ultimately out a lot of dough thanks to President Kennedy.

LongJohnSilver
4th April 2008, 05:00
Ok I'm surprised at these posts.

Silver certificates, authorized by the Silver Purchase Act of 1934, were redeemable for silver held by theTreasury. At a market price above $1.29, a profit could bemade by redeeming the silver certificates, receiving 0.77 ounce of silver from the Treasury, and then selling the silver. In addition, at a market price above $1.38, a profit could be made by melting U.S. circulating coinage for its silver content. Realizing that it could not supply industrial consumers with silver mint coinage and maintain a stock of silver forredemption of silver certificates, the Government began demonetizing silver. Public Law 88-36, which repealed the Silver Purchase Act of 1934 and authorized the printing of Federal Reserve Notes not redeemable in silver, was passed inmid-1963.

This is from Henry Hilliards Silver in the 20th Century

The silver certificates had been produced throughout from 1934 onwards..most were in $1 denomination. You can still buy them at a good coin or money dealer. They weren't a new thing that JFK was trying to introduce.

The Silver Certificates began to disappear from circulation during the 1940s and 1950s. The amount of Silver Certificates in circulation depended directly upon the amount of silver bullion in the Treasury vaults. As people redeemed the certificates for bullion or silver dollars, the notes were shredded, because the notes had lost their backing and could not be recirculated unless there were more silver being produced. The price of silver was also rising. In 1960, it was nearing $1.29, which meant that silver dollars were worth more than $1. This meant that people would receive their silver dollars, and melt them down for the bullion, thereby reducing the amount of silver in circulation, which was already falling.

JFK signed PL 88-36

I agree JaySpizzy that I (and Flaherty) wrote "transferring" to the Treasury and you are quite right to point out that EO 11110 "expanded" the power to issue the Certificates to the Treasury, as PL 88-36 had made it possible for only the President to do so.

I am genuinely trying to get to the bottom of this and it disheartens me to see my own words and others being misquoted.

I worked for 15 years in investigative television and I appreciate the time, in particular Kelly, that you guys are putting into this...but there is a need to be objective and not subjective here.

It seems to me JFK was more than a little distressed at what was going on...and it may be that the reason he issued so many non-Fed United States Greenbacks was because he was fighting back against the Fed and the phasing out of the Silver Certificates that he was getting drawn into...

Again from Hilliard.........The coinage act of 1965 eliminated the use ofsilver in dimes and quarters and reduced the silver content of half-dollars. In 1967, silver coins were withdrawn from circulation and holders of silver certificates were given 1 year to redeem the certificates for silver. With the ending of the relation between silver and the U.S. monetary system in 1968, investor-speculator activities and industrial demand became the determinants of activity in the silver market."

United States Notes also began to disappear. My understanding is that after 1966 no more were issued. In order to meet the requirement of $300 million in "circulation", a series of $100 bills was printed in 1966, and apparently moved from one Federal Reserve Bank to another every few weeks. (!)

so, as I say I am no expert on this, I am simply stimulating enquiry....but...

to give Flaherty the (for the time being) last word...........

To conserve the Treasury's silver needs, the Silver Purchase Act and related measures were repealed by Congress in 1963 with Public Law 88-36. Following the repeal, only the President could authorize new silver certificate issues, and no longer the Treasury Secretary. The law, signed by Kennedy himself, also permits the Federal Reserve to issue small denomination bills to replace the outgoing silver certificates (prior to the act, the Fed could only issue Federal Reserve Notes in larger denominations). The Treasury's shrinking silver stock could then be used to mint coins only and not have to back currency. The repeal left only the President with the authority to issue silver certificates, however it did permit him to delegate this authority. E.O. 11,110 does this by transferring the authority from the President to the Treasury Secretary.

E.O. 11,110 did not create authority to issue new silver certificates, it only affected who could give the order.

The purpose of the order was to facilitate the reduction of certificates in circulation, not to increase them. In October 1964 the Treasury ceased issuing them entirely. The Coinage Act of 1965 (PL 89-81) ended the practice of using silver in most U.S. coins, and in 1968 Congress ended the redeemability of silver certificates (PL 90-29).

E.O. 11,110 was never reversed by President Johnson and remained on the books until 1987 when there was a general cleaning-up of executive orders (E.O. 12,608, 9/9/87). However, by this time the remaining legislative authority behind E.O. 11,110 had been repealed by Congress with PL 97-258 in 1982.2

In summary, E.O. 11,110 did not create new authority to issue additional silver certificates. In fact, its intention was to ease the process for their removal so that small denomination Federal Reserve Notes could replace them in accordance with a law Kennedy himself signed."

So apart from JaySpizzy pointing out that Power was not Transferred to the Treasury solely ie it was expanded to include the Treasury and the President I don't feel I read anything yet that refutes Flaherty and it is a small victory as Flaherty's meaning was clear.

The point about what exactly happened to E011110 afterwards and whether it is still on the statute books or has disappeared under a sea of changing legislature is not my main interest. It is the JFK/Fed tension I am interested in. As we know, Laws can be changed and if there was ever a return to the silver standard laws would be changed. If (when?)they do bring in an Amero after having trashed the $ we will all know....but by then the world will be (YET AGAIN) a very different place.

Best to you all,

LongJohn

LongJohnSilver
4th April 2008, 05:12
LongJohn said


I don't know if it is possible to realistically relate what happened in the Kennedy assassination specifically to currency issues. You've got to remember 1962 and the Bay of Pigs. We were on the brink of war with Cuba, and the military-industrial complex, which was in cahoots with the Fed from day one, was gung ho on starting another war. Though I was just a kid at the time, Kennedy pulled one of the biggest bluffs in all of history. His actions ultimately prevented a disastrous war and you've got to remember, the bankers love wars because wars mean the country has to borrow tons of money from them. Historically, the bankers have financed every war America has ever been in.

Kennedy was stepping on toes. He didn't take the advice of the military advisors, and by not doing so, the US didn't have to go into debt to the Fed. We didn't owe the Fed a dime back then, as I recall. We had no Federal debt at all when Kennedy was in office. Based upon what we know about the Fed today, I think it is quite reasonable to suspect they had an intense dislike for JFK. The military-industrial complex is what it is. They make money off of war. Bankers are who they are. War is their biggest profit maker.

The people all breathed a big sigh of relief, I can certainly remember that. People had been scared to death we were on the brink of a nuclear war. Thank god it didn't happen. Never-the-less, the fact is the bankers and the military-industrialists were ultimately out a lot of dough thanks to President Kennedy.
Yes Kelly, agree with you on all this....and JFK made few friends in the CIA when he left all those operatives stranded at the Bay of Pigs...

By the way, since this strand is about Market Manipulation I hope you appreciate the irony of my second quote from Hilliard's History of Silver in the Twentieth Century.

best
LJS

Gino
4th April 2008, 10:39
I've been watching to see if this trend persisted for another day in the spot price charts. And there it is again.

http://www.kitco.com/images/live/silver.gif

It seems that, at least over the past three days, London is selling and New York is buying. Not sure what it means.

LongJohnSilver
4th April 2008, 10:46
It ain't me selling Gino !

What I think it means is that the London Bullion Market, which is run by...yep, you guessed it...is doing what it always does...keeping the market as low as it can...

Gino
4th April 2008, 10:56
Yeah, well it's a shame. There could hae been some significant growth over the past 48 hrs without that action. Is that just from people wanting to sell their metal cheaper in London than elsewhere?

I'm still not completely clear on the role of long & short futures.

Gino
4th April 2008, 11:30
Are there any information sources that substantiate the published spot price, like the amount of metal traded in the respective markets? I have searched, but can't see any.

I mean it would be kind of nice to know that there is a relationship between the amount of metal sold into the market and the variation in the spot price.

LongJohnSilver
4th April 2008, 12:00
Gino,

I can't help you with this.....London is the main physical market ....as opposed to paper.......and although I only buy physical it's never through LBMA.

There is a curious document at http://www.lbma.org.uk/publications/2008survey.pdf

which already seems somewhat antiquated but it in the main shows how the various members of the London market view the PMs over the coming year.

best

LJS

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 12:16
I've been watching to see if this trend persisted for another day in the spot price charts. And there it is again.

http://www.kitco.com/images/live/silver.gif

It seems that, at least over the past three days, London is selling and New York is buying. Not sure what it means.

Good observation. Now this is just an educated guess, but I think this is just that the ball is now in the London court, and they are playing it just the way they are supposed to.

I'm not sure if you guys "get it" yet, but London, NY, Sydney, Hong Kong... they are all taking turns buying and selling gold and silver. They just use it to fix the prices. Or they "lease" them and accomplished the same thing.

All this gold and silver is just poker chips to them, and the really big boys are behind all the major world markets and central banks.

Nice call, though. London has been selling and New your buying for the last few days, but what about last week, or last month, or last year? These central banks take turns selling and buying to control the markets, and the little people who are in them.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 12:21
"It seems to me JFK was more than a little distressed at what was going on...and it may be that the reason he issued so many non-Fed United States Greenbacks was because he was fighting back against the Fed and the phasing out of the Silver Certificates that he was getting drawn into..."

As I recall, it wasn't just JFK that was distressed. I think the people were distressed about it. I was alive then, so let me tell you a little story…I can remember my Dad sitting at the dining room table talking to my Mom about money, and pulling all the money out of his wallet. Back in the 60's money went a whole lot further than it does today. We think of $1, $2, $5 and $10 bills as "small change" today. But back in the 60s, that was what was commonly used. You didn't see that many $20s back then and you almost never saw $100 bills. My Father always kept a big bill (I think it was a $50) folded up and tucked away in some mysterious compartment in his wallet, but he never used it. What was spent at the grocery store, the dime store and J.C Penny's were the small bills, and the small bills said "Federal Reserve Note", while only the larger denominations were Silver Certificates. Dad said FRNs were "funny money" and "not worth a pig's ear."

And I think my Father probably echoed the sentiment of the nation at that time. There was a huge mistrust of money that was not backed by silver in those days. And the primary reason for that was because most of the adults in the 60's had been teen-agers or young adults through the 20's and 30's and what happened during the depression was indelibly tattooed on their minds. The economy was great in the 50's and 60's, no question of that, but at the back of everybody's mind was the fear that the rug could be pulled out from under them in a heartbeat. So when it came to money, people wanted something that was backed by silver, and the small bills that were used in day to day transactions were only FRNs.

I can remember when they took the silver out of coins. By that time I was old enough to be working in a hardware store, and when I was given the new coins as change for a purchase, I was not only stunned, I was certain they were counterfeit. Like most kids, I hadn't been paying too much attention to the news, and the subject of currency sure didn't interest me then, so I took those coins to the manager and said, "Look! Somebody is counterfeiting money!" Well, the manager knew they were taking the silver out of coins, but he looked at the coins carefully, dropped them on the floor and listened to the sound they made, spun them on the table top and then said "it's Monopoly money. These things might as well be plastic chits."

So, when we look at the LAWS governing currency, all written in a deplorable amount of doublespeak; I think it wise to remember the heart of the nation, and how REAL PEOPLE were reacting to these things back then. Regardless of whether EO 11110 only gave additional authority to the Treasurer or not, is probably NOT the point. The point is the people were clamoring for the small denomination dollars they typically traded in to be backed by silver, and ultimately, that DID happen; at least for a while. Though Kennedy and his brother were the sons of one of the nation's wealthiest men, both men were determined to listen to the needs of the people. That's why they became national heroes. In spite of any cold and impersonal look at the laws governing currency, the doublespeak words written into law cannot and do not reflect the emotions and will of the people, but JFK took the will of the people to heart.

People had real faith in America then and they trusted the government to protect them, but at the same time they mistrusted Wall Street and the big banking conglomerates because whether they actually understood what had happened in the depression or not, they instinctively feared the Federal Reserve. Go look back and look at some of the political cartoons and commentary of the 20's and 30's when there were still some REAL reporters and the media was still fairly on top of things. The adults of the 60's grew up reading those newspaper stories. The Depression was front page news and the editorials on the bankers were as fervent in those days as any speech McFadden ever gave on the floor of congress.

The adults of the 60's wanted their money backed in silver because those folks grew up in the Depression reading stories about the Federal Reserve. To them an FRN represented something that could not be trusted.

Regardless of what EO 11110 says, or Flaherty's opinion for that matter, the result of it all was that lots and lots of small denomination bills were printed as silver certificates, which is precisely what the people had actually been asking for.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 12:40
It seems to me JFK was more than a little distressed at what was going on...and it may be that the reason he issued so many non-Fed United States Greenbacks was because he was fighting back against the Fed and the phasing out of the Silver Certificates that he was getting drawn into...


Wait a minute, I am not picking at gnats here, but let's not confuse people. The subject of currency is confusing enough.

Kennedy did not print "Greenbacks;" he printed "Silver Certificates." Greenback dollars are what Abe Lincoln printed. They were paper currency which was not backed by an asset like silver or gold, but Greenbacks WERE NOT like a Federal Reserve Note either, which is a fractional reserve fiat currency backed by debt; like how much you owe on your house or car, or how much a corporation borrowed to get into business. FRNs represent leveraged paper money and debt and are backed by the contracts somebody signs when they borrow money. The asset you borrow money for so you can purchase something is what ultimately backs FRNs. However, the real worth of the underlying asset one borrows money for usually only represents a protion of the debt. Greenbacks were paper money backed by nothing but an agreement to have faith in the fact that money represented an exchange of goods and labor. The Silver certificates Kennedy had printed were not backed by debt, but were backed by the silver held in the nation's treasury. In other words, America has printed three distinctly different kinds of paper money and understanding those differences is important.

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 14:57
Wait a minute, I am not picking at gnats here, but let's not confuse people. The subject of currency is confusing enough.

Kennedy did not print "Greenbacks;" he printed "Silver Certificates." Greenback dollars are what Abe Lincoln printed. They were paper currency which was not backed by an asset like silver or gold, but Greenbacks WERE NOT like a Federal Reserve Note either, which is a fractional reserve fiat currency backed by debt; like how much you owe on your house or car, or how much a corporation borrowed to get into business. FRNs represent leveraged paper money and debt and are backed by the contracts somebody signs when they borrow money. The asset you borrow money for so you can purchase something is what ultimately backs FRNs. However, the real worth of the underlying asset one borrows money for usually only represents a protion of the debt. Greenbacks were paper money backed by nothing but an agreement to have faith in the fact that money represented an exchange of goods and labor. The Silver certificates Kennedy had printed were not backed by debt, but were backed by the silver held in the nation's treasury. In other words, America has printed three distinctly different kinds of paper money and understanding those differences is important.

So the really important distinction is between debt-based money and interest free money. Whether gold backed or fiat it makes little difference as long as the weight of law is behind the money and those using it for trade have confidence in it.

That is the important differentiation.

But the private banking sector is on shaky ground whenever it is creating debt-based money that are based in fictions about fractions. It is fractional reserve banking that needs to be reformed at the lower banking levels, and debt-based money on all levels, especially by the Federal Reserve System.

Plus... people just need to be educated on the differences between money and wealth.

Money is nothing more or less than an accepted medium of exchange within a given economic system. It need not have any intrinsic value.

Wealth, on the other hand, always has intrinsic value on a given free market. Gold and silver is wealth, more specifically commodity wealth that can be established on the free market.

The mere fact that because of its nearly universal value, compactness, and concentrated value, and difficulty counterfeiting, it has always been used, along with other metals like copper, bronze, tin, and silver, as money.

If anyone really wants an education about money, I suggest Stephen Zarlenga's The Lost Science of Money. It's really the best money reference out there, bar none.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 15:43
So the really important distinction is between debt-based money and interest free money. Whether gold backed or fiat it makes little difference as long as the weight of law is behind the money and those using it for trade have confidence in it.

You've got it there! Every single dollar the Fed prints represents a debt which carries interest. The mountain of debt America now owes is the direct result of the debt that a fiat, fractional reserve dollar with "Federal Reserve Note" printed at the top represents. Today money equals debt. Period. Every single dollar printed is an interest bearing debt.

To get out of the debt, we must abolish or nationalize the Fed, and the government must print it's own debt free money again. To do anything else is insanity.

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 16:36
Fedfixnix:

"So the really important distinction is between debt-based money and interest free money. Whether gold backed or fiat it makes little difference as long as the weight of law is behind the money and those using it for trade have confidence in it."



Kelly: You've got it there! Every single dollar the Fed prints represents a debt which carries interest. The mountain of debt America now owes is the direct result of the debt that a fiat, fractional reserve dollar with "Federal Reserve Note" printed at the top represents. Today money equals debt. Period. Every single dollar printed is an interest bearing debt. To get out of the debt, we must abolish or nationalize the Fed, and the government must print it's own debt free money again. To do anything else is insanity.

But the very definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same mistaken actions over and over again while somehow expecting to get a different result. :rolleyes: Yet we keep doing it, and by "we" I mean all of us: humanity in general, western civilization and the USA in particular.

But I mainly want the people here to learn that paper money and fiat money are not necessarily bad or inflationary. Fiat money has taken a bad rap that is undeserved because of mischief and unregulated license by the big bankers to print out endless amounts of debt-based funny money. It matters little if the funny money is supposedly "backed" with some asset or commodity of value. What matters is that the people using it a money have confidence in it retaining its value as money, or a medium of exchange. What difference does it make whether a $1000 treasury note (paper money or bill) can be redeemed for $1000 in gold, if it can purchase $1000 in gold?

In other words, it is the stability and reliability of the paper money, wampum, checks, IOUs or whatever, to buy what they are supposed to buy that is important. Any real reflection on this will make it obvious.

When counterfeiters flood a market or economy with fake money, (as happened during the American Revolution by England with the Continental and in several other instances in our history) it debases or devalues the currency. It will buy less and less as time passes, and so confidence in it is lost. Every enemy of America has tried to debase our currency, and America has done its best to debase the currencies of some of its enemies. The central bankers have tried to debase every currency put out in the USA except those that were produced by them!

I know those who think the gold standard is God will disagree, but just think: What was our money backed by during the great depression? It couldn't have been.... gulp.... gold... could it?

And isn't gold subject to the same kinds of market manupulations that happen to other commodities? So if you have a gold backed currency, you can only do one of two things: you FIX the PRICE of gold, or you subject it, and your money, to market manipulations. In other words, you subject your currency to being controlled by those with most of the gold. (Substitute any other commodity, like silver, and the result is the same)

You cannot have a sound and stable currency that is based on commodities, without strict regulation and fixing of the commodity prices, and therefore the free markets themselves.

Anyone here up for that?

LongJohnSilver
4th April 2008, 17:02
Wait a minute, I am not picking at gnats here, but let's not confuse people. The subject of currency is confusing enough.

Kennedy did not print "Greenbacks;" he printed "Silver Certificates." Greenback dollars are what Abe Lincoln printed. They were paper currency which was not backed by an asset like silver or gold, but Greenbacks WERE NOT like a Federal Reserve Note either, which is a fractional reserve fiat currency backed by debt; like how much you owe on your house or car, or how much a corporation borrowed to get into business. FRNs represent leveraged paper money and debt and are backed by the contracts somebody signs when they borrow money. The asset you borrow money for so you can purchase something is what ultimately backs FRNs. However, the real worth of the underlying asset one borrows money for usually only represents a protion of the debt. Greenbacks were paper money backed by nothing but an agreement to have faith in the fact that money represented an exchange of goods and labor. The Silver certificates Kennedy had printed were not backed by debt, but were backed by the silver held in the nation's treasury. In other words, America has printed three distinctly different kinds of paper money and understanding those differences is important.
Kelly, you are preaching to the converted regarding the money supply.....debt-based central banking et al...

What worries me is your point of view which seems to think it's ok to make incredibly broad sweeping statements and claim them as facts...like...

Kennedy didn't print Greenbacks....(then what is this in front of my nose ? ...an interest-free 1963 United States Red Seal Greenback $2 bill ) - you can pick one up yourself on ebay or at any good money dealer - dependent on condition the going rate is about $12.

that it was the Kennedy administration that printed the Silver Certificates when in fact they had been printed since the depression (Again you can still pick these up at money dealers, the $1 are obviously the cheapest, but the $5 and $10 are still out there.)

that OE 11110 somehow proves the Fed did Jack Kennedy in.....or that it meant JFK was printing more Silver Certificates....

From my very first post I have endeavoured to make objective comment as well as stimulate debate by quoting an obviously contrarian counter arguement (Flaherty's) and invite those more knowledgeable to counter his arguement. To date no one has although I still invite it.

Your comments about the Silver Certificates and the Greenback are to your own embarrassment as they are so obviously incorrect.

As I have said, I think it's a very important area for discussion and debate precisely because in my opinion, and it is only my opinion, there appears to be so much bad feeling between the Kennedys and the Fed, that both of were assasinated, that both of them clearly were trying to do so much for their country and again, it is only my opinion, that Jack Kennedy loathed the notion of coming off the silver standard, which is what he was being forced to do, and who, like his hero Jefferson, he was an passionate advocate for, and that, unable to stop this tide of events he enabled his Treasurer to print the silver certificates (without the need for Presidential approval) and at the same time printed as many non-Fed Greenbacks as he was able to under the law. It was these areas I hoped we would explore as to my knowledge they are opaque and I havn't yet come across anybody who has shed any light on what was going on behind the scenes re these matters but presumably there are still many people alive who have a great deal of knowledge about this. I hadn't expected to draw yet more exposition against debt-based central banking and the evils of fractional reserve fiat currency which presumably most of us already know about or we wouldn't be up to our gills in bullion...(Me Hearties !!)

as always....

best to you all...

LongJohnSilver

Kelly
4th April 2008, 17:44
LongJohn - I wasn't preaching at you, honest. I was just concerned for the people on this forum that are just now learing about currency theories and monetary history, and I didn't want them to get confused. I know you know what you are talking about. But if you are a person who is just now learning, and this is all new stuff, it takes a while to get the hang of it.

FedFixNix - Theoretically, I think everything you are saying is right on. However, I think theory and reality often turn out to be two very different things; particularly in a world where international trading takes place on the level it's taking place today. In theory, I can back an American currency that was not backed by PMs IF the Fed had absolutely nothing to do with it, and a citizen oversight committee was established to make sure the government did not print money for pork barrel projects or inflate the system. I know Abe Lincoln's Greenback dollars served this nation very well for many years. My problem with going for a similar currency to the Greenback of Lincoln's day is only "What happens with World Trade, if for instance, China, India and Russia team up together as a trading block, and decide to back their chosen currency with silver and gold?" That's a practical question, not a theoretical one, and it is particularly practical in terms of "Reserve Currency", i.e. the accepted currency chosen by the world for the international trading of commodities, like oil or even food, particularly commodities that are in short supply.

In theory, it shouldn't make any difference, but in practice all I have to do is look at the news. The Euro, for instance, isn't necessarily "more stable" than the dollar is, in fact its already going through some serious inflation and throughout the EU the fears are that it is only going to get worse. Yet, more and more countries are abandoning the US dollar as their reserve currency in favor of the Euro instead. And by the same token, it's my suspicion that should any trading block determine to back their currency with precious metals, the Euro would suddenly be out of favor and the PM backed currency would quickly become the world's reserve currency.

In fact, I suspect that is actually the ultimate game plan behind the proposed Amero; a gold-backed currency that would, once again, give the same elite banking families control over the world's reserve currency.

No nation is an island any more, and like it or not, globalism is a reality. The theoretical ideas behind all currency theories have to be practical as well. I think it extraordinarily practical to take measures that NEVER give the banking elitists control again. However, that being said, I see that control returning in spades the moment any trading block chooses to back their currency with precious metals, and in particular gold; which I think would be a very big mistake. I know that "in theory" it shouldn't make any difference, but the world is a very fickle place.

The bankers don't care which country's currency they control. They never really have. They are like whores in that respect and care not about nations. They are not patriots in the least and never have been. The same group has moved from Germany, to France and then to England, and from there they moved to control America. They only care that their chosen currency remains supreme in the world market place, and I don't doubt that the global elites would back any trading block ready to give a gold-backed currency a ride. They don't care if it is China's or Russia's or South America's money system that becomes the world's reserve currency, as long as they can control it.

So what are the practical answers? Theory is theory, and I am far more concerned with the practical answers as they will ultimately affect an international marketplace.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 18:30
Your comments about the Silver Certificates and the Greenback are to your own embarrassment as they are so obviously incorrect.

I am not embarassed about anything. We are talking about time in history that when I was just a kid, and most people on this forum were not even born yet.

I was unaware of the fact that Greenbacks were also printed in Kennedy's day; I remember the silver certificates and the FRNs because that's what I saw being used, and I don't think the subtle little point that Greenbacks were also still being circulated has been pointed out in too many of the articles and videos that talk about these things. If it has been, I haven't seen it declared as a point of importance. Maybe you can go into a coin shop and buy a greenback from Kennedy's day, but I don't recall them. The money we used was either FRNs or silver certificates, and maybe you can buy small denomination silver certificates today from before Kennedy's time, but most of the small denomination money I recall in circulation were FRNs.

How many greenbacks were in circulation? How many small denomination silver certificates before Kennedy? Aren't coin shops much like the antique trade, where the collectable item is generally something that there wasn't many of? I am not a coin shop patron. You obviously are. Should I be embarassed for not frequenting coin shops? Should anybody?

I wasn't trying to make some "broad sweeping statement" so much as I was simply trying to make the distinction between three entirely different currencies, and recalling the days of Kennedy, when small denomination FRNs were in big supply, but small denomination silver certificates for everyday use were not. People didn't like it, so apparently Kennedy made sure there were more small denomination silver certificates.

If that makes me ignorant in your eyes, then so be it. I'm just an everyday American who doesn't frequent coin shops. Collecting coins wasn't my thing, however, I did deal other kinds of antiques and collectibles, and know dang well that if something is being collected, it's generally because it's in short supply.

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 18:34
You've got it there! Every single dollar the Fed prints represents a debt which carries interest. The mountain of debt America now owes is the direct result of the debt that a fiat, fractional reserve dollar with "Federal Reserve Note" printed at the top represents. Today money equals debt. Period. Every single dollar printed is an interest bearing debt.

To get out of the debt, we must abolish or nationalize the Fed, and the government must print it's own debt free money again. To do anything else is insanity.



So what are the practical answers? Theory is theory, and I am far more concerned with the practical answers as they will ultimately affect an international marketplace.

I don't have time to write a book on the answers I think might work, and I don't even have all of them. Neither did our founding fathers when they wrote our constitution. It was to serve as a framework for our federal alliance of states.

I've given The American Monetary Institute website repeatedly, and I think their framework is an essential starting place:

www.monetary.org

The Lost Science of Money - Mythology & Power:

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1930748035/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

It is going to take grassroots efforts all over the country, and on the Internet to educate enough people about the art and science of people- centered interest free, debt-free money.

Then, basically, if enough popular support exists when the Fed kills the dollar, and introduces the Amero, the people will move to replace that scheme with sound money (as described above).

If not, then we will live through the horrors of yet another colossal blunder in yet concentrating more power in the hands of the private Federal Reserve bankers.

The issue is that someone has to control our monetary system. So what should that system of money look like, and who should control it?

You tell me. We've agreed that it should be debt-free and interest-free. We've agreed that a monetary system engineered by privateer profiteers is not in the public welfare.

Do you want me to outline a system here? Or is is enough to point to the works of others who have done that?

Kelly
4th April 2008, 19:04
If not, then we will live through the horrors of yet another colossal blunder in yet concentrating more power in the hands of the private Federal Reserve bankers

Just in the last few weeks, I've read articles and heard news stories suggesting that more and more people are talking about "nationalizing" the Fed. The Fed is not real popular right now. But even if we nationized the central bank, and people went to a gold-backed Amero, wouldn't that still give the same handful of banking elitists the same power? The bankers have been trading their paper dollars for gold bricks and stashing them away forever. This whole gold thing has just been drummed into the human psyche for thousands of years now, and it's my guess that no amount of education is going to easily dispell the aura it has.

Read Jason Hommel's stuff. He's quoting the bible about returning to a gold backed currency. Gold is actually mentioned 417 times in the Bible, and like it or not, I don't think that's going to go away. Unless we actually pulled "the Robin Hood-Maid Marion" thing, and actually confiscated the gold privately owned by the bankers, it just looks like a vicious circle doomed to repeat itself.

I get totally what you are saying about PM backed currencies, but go ahead and fight it and my guess is you'd get bible thumped every time. I don't know how to change that. Except to say I see no answer unless the Government decided to confiscate the banker's gold, rather than the gold and silver belonging to the little guys.

I've lived in a country all my life where depressions, recessions, housing crunches and gas crunches occured. It doesn't make any differnence what the economic trouble has been, in all cases all I have seen is the wealth of the middle-class on down being fleeced from the people and that wealth inevitably ends up in the hands of the elitists. I'm just weary of it, very, very weary.

Gino
4th April 2008, 20:00
So, would it be true to say that the majority of people who hold bullion do so as a hedge against economic collapse? Hoping that their hoard will allow them some advantage in the event of a disaster?

This is a new concept to me, I was thinking more about the commodities bull and the relative value of Ag, not as a store for wealth against global economic collapse.

Do you guys (meant in a non-sexist way) really believe that, short of an armed revolution, it is likely that the global financial system (it ain't just the US) will abandon its debt/interest bias? I can understand the self-interest from a PM holder's perspective, but do you really think it likely?

If so how likely? More likely than the sea level rising due to global warming? There are entire nations of coastal dwellers. Some, like Tuvalu, even appear to be going under. I like living by the water though and don't have any plans to move just yet.

It has been my experience that disaster/survival scenarios can become mentally unhealthy and create obsessions. Did you hear about the Russian cult last week that had to be rescued from a collapsing cave because they felt the world was going to end some time soon. Poor guys, clearly delusional, putting themselves at greater risk because of their obsession.

Having said that, I do now that when the Euro was introduced to Italy that individual purchasing power was effectively halved over-night. Retailers simply put the Euro symbol in front of existing prices while employers scrupulously converted wages at the official exchange rate. The people of Italy still haven't recovered from this level of unofficial inflation. PM could be a good hedge against this scenario if a new currency is likely.

I can't help wondering, though, if the additional costs for procuring physical bullion (12.5% on top of spot, to buy & sell through a dealer in Australia) are not a greater, more immediate risk to financial growth?

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 20:31
Just in the last few weeks, I've read articles and heard news stories suggesting that more and more people are talking about "nationalizing" the Fed. The Fed is not real popular right now. But even if we nationized the central bank, and people went to a gold-backed Amero, wouldn't that still give the same handful of banking elitists the same power?

Sure, unless we changed the entire set of banking laws along with it, a few other areas of our government and electoral system. We are talking constitutional reform here; there are no simple answers or solutions.


The bankers have been trading their paper dollars for gold bricks and stashing them away forever. This whole gold thing has just been drummed into the human psyche for thousands of years now, and it's my guess that no amount of education is going to easily dispell the aura it has.

I could not agree any more. But I never said it would be easy. Yet, real education rather than profit oriented propaganda, is the only answer. Yet that education is going to of necessity be aimed at those who have the mental and spiritual capacity to comprehend it, to that they can become the nucleus of informing others. Jesus started on his mission by selecting the first six apostles. Look where it led. But the work he started has been usurped by pretenders and wolves in sheep's clothing.


Read Jason Hommel's stuff. He's quoting the bible about returning to a gold backed currency. Gold is actually mentioned 417 times in the Bible, and like it or not, I don't think that's going to go away.

I read him often. Nearly all those that recognize parts of the problem offer the gold standard as the solution. They are simply wrong, whether innocently, ignorantly or with knowing malice. It's not going away quickly or easily, but I never suggested it would. But its wrong, so it will go away, sooner or later, like many other evils on this planet. But I don't understand how gold "being mentioned" 417 times in the bible makes it "right". How many times is murder mentioned? Or theft? Or slaying women and children? There are some pretty ignorant and even evil interpretations of the bible.


Unless we actually pulled "the Robin Hood-Maid Marion" thing, and actually confiscated the gold privately owned by the bankers, it just looks like a vicious circle doomed to repeat itself.

That's a nearly universally appealing story isn't it? I wonder why that is? Could it have something to do with "justice"? Is it wrong to take back what was stolen from you, or your family? Or to go to court or law to get it returned?

But do "we" the people even have the power to pull off that game? I think not. Our congressmen or judiciary could do so, but they won't. They are bought and sold, body and soul, by the money robber barons. First there will have to be an economic crash of unprecedented proportions in order to get the people's attention. Then our congressmen will be pressured to act... in the worst ways... to bring back the gold standard.

So we get screwed again, only worse, because now they will recall all the gold, and begin all over again with the Amero. And the same robbers minus a few scapegoats will be running our money and wealth. And the middle class will keep dwindling away, and big brother will smile and say "be happy"..."you don't have to worry"... "I'll do the worrying for you"... "I'll take care of everything".


I get totally what you are saying about PM backed currencies, but go ahead and fight it and my guess is you'd get bible thumped every time.

I get bible-thumped all the time. I never get bible-trumped, because I know it inside out and understand that it is a record of mankind's evolving concepts about deity. It is not a finished statement of living truth. That is a never ending, ongoing discovery adventure for us all.

And it isn't my job to fight for or against PM backed currencies. It is only my job to discover what truth I can and pass some of it along to others. They will take what they need and do the same. And someday gold and money will no longer rule the world.


I don't know how to change that. Except to say I see no answer unless the Government decided to confiscate the banker's gold, rather than the gold and silver belonging to the little guys.

Unless we return the government to the people, through a better, more representative government, then it wouldn't matter. The gold would soon be back in the banker's vaults again under all the same rules, laws, and systems. It would do little good to return either the gold alone or the government alone to the people. Both must be done, and at the same time, or the people will not long retain either.


I've lived in a country all my life where depressions, recessions, housing crunches and gas crunches occurred. It doesn't make any difference what the economic trouble has been, in all cases all I have seen is the wealth of the middle-class on down being fleeced from the people and that wealth inevitably ends up in the hands of the elitists. I'm just weary of it, very, very weary.

When you get to be seventy you will know weary ;)
I was born towards the end of the Great Depression and the beginnings of WW II in Europe.

I was moved by FDR's "fireside chats" and grieved over his death. A short while later I celebrated the end of the war to end all wars, was horrified to learn of the extent of the Nazi extermination camps in Europe, and man's inhumanity to man, and saddened at the beginning of the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

It has taken me a lifetime, and I'm still trying to figure out how all that, and everything since, could happen after all the loss of lives in the first two World Wars, and the Great Depression.

Now I know, and would do whatever I can to keep the cycle from repeating itself. But alone I can do nothing, only together can we bring about change.

But change alone is senseless, and even dangerous. We have to have a clear vision of the kind of world we want for us, our children and our grandchildren. And then we have to act on that vision.

If the gold standard is returned then those who own and control all the gold (and everything else) will tighten their golden rule over us. If that is what must happen in order for us to learn from our mistakes, then that is the universal and cosmic law: "You do it over until you get it right."

Thanks for a good discussion Kelly. I'm sorry this got scattered all over several threads. I'd have preferred keeping it on one thread and summarizing things from time to time.

However, this is not the appropriate forum to work out solutions to our myriad of economic, social and other problems. We should either begin a summary on another thread... say, socio-economic consequences of the banking collapse... or something.

I think I'm about finished here, unless we get back to "Market Manipulation", and we have pretty well established that is happening.

But who are you going to scream to? That, my dear Kelly, is the real question. :!:

FedFixNix
4th April 2008, 20:36
Good questions and comments Gino. Maybe I can give you my 2 Ameros tomorrow, if Kelly or someone else hasn't beat me to it.

For now, I bid you all a good evening.

Kelly
4th April 2008, 20:54
Unless we actually pulled "the Robin Hood-Maid Marion" thing, and actually confiscated the gold privately owned by the bankers, it just looks like a vicious circle doomed to repeat itself.

That's a nearly universally appealing story isn't it? I wonder why that is? Could it have something to do with "justice"? Is it wrong to take back what was stolen from you, or your family? Or to go to court or law to get it returned?

I've been thinking about that more and more these days. But there are two sets of laws, one for regular people and one for those who are wealthy. The bankers are more guilty than Enron, but they get away with it. I think anybody who steals from humanity as a whole is far worse than the common house thief. Over a million houses have just been stolen by the banks. They own them now, every one. We are serfs in our own country, and that's not what this nation was supposed to be about. If people don't wake up to it and demand that it happens no more, then everything our forefather's fought for to remain free is but a cruel joke.

Things will change, no doubt about that, and so I will keep my hope alive that we return to some common sense again.


I get bible-thumped all the time. I never get bible-trumped, because I know it inside out and understand that it is a record of mankind's evolving concepts about deity. It is not a finished statement of living truth.

I couldn't agree more there. Living truth is not a stagnant thing. And I do take heart that much of the truth that was hidden, from OT historical accounts to the the history of the banking elitists is being unveiled at an extraordinary rate today. The truth will out! People just have to open their eyes and start looking at it.

Take heart, and remember what it was like 30 years ago. We know a whole lot more about real history today than people knew back then.

Trvlr45
7th April 2008, 04:43
The answer to our dilema is to somehow get the people in this country to recognize that every problem we have is due to the people not forcing our government to obey the constitution. They don't seem to understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights are there to protect them from the government.

The Coinage Act of 1792 states that silver will be the monetary medium. The Constitution says that silver or gold coin only will be the monetary medium. They can print paper if they want but only if they have gold or silver to back it. I'm not aware of Congress repealing any of this.

The constitution also states that CONGRESS will have control over the money supply, not a private bank. I shudder at the thought of Nancy Pelosi in control of a printing press but it is still the law. At least the smart people in this country could vote her or anyone else out. UH, if there were enough smart people left.

They don't teach history, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights in our learning institutions anymore and that is why we have the problems we do. They have erased the Constitution and the Bill of Rights from our learning institutions. They are now teaching Communism in a good light, not the way it should be talked about.

Democrats can't see past that government paycheck and the gold plated retirement benefits and Republicans can't see past their portfolio because they don't care if it's invested in Communist China or the Middle East as long as it grows.

I work very long hours and my time for learning about the markets is limited. I'm new to this subject but have learned a lot over the last six months.

I have a question. With Congress on the verge of giving even more power to the central bank. What does anyone think that will do to the possibility of walking into a coin shop and buying silver or gold without having to give your SSN which we all know is an illegal ID number. The feds could then show up on your doorstep wanting to know where your stash is and then accuse you of terrorism or money launering if you don't answer any and all questions thanks to the Patriot Act.

They could force you "to prove" that you earned it or "prove where you sold it just as the IRS loves to say, "PROVE IT". It is all unconstitutional because they are supposed to do the "PROVING" if they think you have committed a crime but I can't help but wonder what kind of nefarious, unconstitutional activity they will engage in when the Congress gives them even more power since we have already seen what they are already capable of.

Trvlr45
7th April 2008, 05:28
So, would it be true to say that the majority of people who hold bullion do so as a hedge against economic collapse? Hoping that their hoard will allow them some advantage in the event of a disaster?

This is a new concept to me, I was thinking more about the commodities bull and the relative value of Ag, not as a store for wealth against global economic collapse.

Do you guys (meant in a non-sexist way) really believe that, short of an armed revolution, it is likely that the global financial system (it ain't just the US) will abandon its debt/interest bias? I can understand the self-interest from a PM holder's perspective, but do you really think it likely?

If so how likely? More likely than the sea level rising due to global warming? There are entire nations of coastal dwellers. Some, like Tuvalu, even appear to be going under. I like living by the water though and don't have any plans to move just yet.

It has been my experience that disaster/survival scenarios can become mentally unhealthy and create obsessions. Did you hear about the Russian cult last week that had to be rescued from a collapsing cave because they felt the world was going to end some time soon. Poor guys, clearly delusional, putting themselves at greater risk because of their obsession.

Having said that, I do now that when the Euro was introduced to Italy that individual purchasing power was effectively halved over-night. Retailers simply put the Euro symbol in front of existing prices while employers scrupulously converted wages at the official exchange rate. The people of Italy still haven't recovered from this level of unofficial inflation. PM could be a good hedge against this scenario if a new currency is likely.

I can't help wondering, though, if the additional costs for procuring physical bullion (12.5% on top of spot, to buy & sell through a dealer in Australia) are not a greater, more immediate risk to financial growth?

Dear Gino,

People are investing in Gold and Silver for many different reasons. There are those that buy and sell because they have the knowledege to play the market on upturns and downturns.

There are those that buy for numismatic reasons which can be very long term and there are those that are buying silver in particular because it is cheap compared to everything else out there. Also a possible long term investment due to a possible big shortage in the distant future.

Gold and Silver have both been used as real money for centuries. Every time a fiat currency fails, historically the country returns back to gold and silver. They both work in dictatorships with underground economies the dictors can't track as well.

I have a friend who's grandfather was able to escape Austria during the reign of terror caused by Hitler, Stali and Mussolini only because he had gold coins stashed away.

Today is different because considering the amount of control the Central Bank has globally, computers and dumb Americans supporting the Real ID Act which is now going into effect there is no where to run that is worth running to. However, when the balloon goes up and it's time to CYA gold and silver are the best bet especially in a global depression which is iminate.

There is a slight possibility that the world, thanks to the idiocy of globalization and multi-culturalism, will wake up and see what is happening due to global currencies (with the exception of the Swiss Franc) all being fiat worthless paper full of hot air and promises when we end up in a GLOBAL depression.

Unfortunately, the chances of our country or anyone elses getting away from a debt based economy are about as non-existent as the people in this country realizing that man-made climate change is the biggest lie since the Federal Reserve Act focused simply on Americans paying a global income tax to the international community. A carbon tax on everything is a totalarian dream come true. Tax something that can't even be measured! Except by them.

Unless the people in this country wake up real quick you're probably right. The chances of us getting away from a debt based economy are about as good as the oceans rising due to "Global Warming" because we are headed into an ice age.

That's why the founder of the weather channel and hundreds of scientists want to sue Algore for fraud! There was just a huge conference in New York with 500 scientists, journalists etc trying to figure out how to get around the Central Bank controlled media and let everyone know they are being stroked but there was a total blackout on THAT climate change conference. The people at THAT one get it. Hang om to your wallet! Or purse as the case may be.

Trvlr45
7th April 2008, 07:11
Gino,

No one is suggesting you put all your faith in silver or gold or anything else. Diversification is the key but having a good stash of silver and gold around in various forms is always a good idea.

In very bad economic times it doesn't take the local grocery store or the local gas station very long to figure out the value of a silver or gold coin and I think we all know very bad times are on the horizon. The question is how bad will it get, and when?

When we had our (artificial) gas shortage here in America back in the 70's there were actually a few gas stations who put in machines so you could buy gas with silver coins which we used up until the late 60's. They refer to them as junk silver coins these days. We now have another phony gas shortage. You can read "Energy Non Crisis" and form your own opinion.

Oil is abiotic. The earth produces it naturally. It is a naturally recurring renewable resource and carbon emissions are not bad for the environement. It is the naturally ocurring heat from the sun and numerous other normal machinations of natural earyh cycles that cause carbon to rise.

I may add here that I support as clean an environement as possible but with sensible regulations not based in promoting Communism, Fascism or in general, a totalitarian government which many countires around the globe and now dealing with, including the United States. Just look at England! A camera on every street corner? Now with loud speakers barking out orders? Because of terrorists? Who let the terrorists in? England? England did! Who let the terrorist into America? America did! Why? Muti-culturalism and globalization.

The planet earth isn't some neighborhood dinner party where you just invite everyone to show up including the pedophile down the street, the serial killer a block away and the local gang leader just because it makes you "feel good" to accept anyone and everything. Orwell has got to be flopping aroung in his grave like a soon-to-be dead mackeral on a hot boat deck. He tried to warn us.

The English obviously don't know who he was nor do enough people in America who are willing to give up their privacy rights and freedom for false security by an increasingly tyrannical government. Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini have got to be laughing in there graves! What they started is now in every country on the globe with the banksters in control of it all.

Any effect we are having on the climate is negligible if there was even any way to tell. Unfortunately, the climate change scare is affecting the prices of many commodities in a big way. You have to keep in mind that using the word "Science" was one of the tactics communists wanted to use to get people to give away their rights. After all, the scientists are always right, aren't they? Oh no, scientific data could never be manipulated. Then there is the Hegelian Dialect I won't even bother to get into. It works like a charm though.

You may ask what does the climate change hullaballo have to do with commodities or silver and gold? Everything! It's destroying the American economy which is linked to every other economy because of the idiocy of globalism and multi-culturalism.

It's driving food prices and fuel prices through the roof because only an idiot would burn more coal and oil to manufacture ethanol and use food (corn) to do it while claiming it saves the environement when it doesn't even if you accept the bogus argument of the average eco-terrorist. That is, if burning coil and oil was even hurting the environment to begin with which no one knows for sure.

Environmentalism is doing more to destroy the world economy and further the totalitarianist agenda of the UN by taking away property rights than just about anything else ever could. Including the fiat money system. All of this is bound to drive up the value of silver and many other commodities as well especially if you have to pay un-constitutional taxes you can't afford to use your own land or live in your own house. We have the right to own property in America. It doesn't sy anything about "renting" it. Whichs means real estate isn't a very good investment for many people any more, is it? The average middle income American can tell you all about that.

When investments like real estate become un-affordable gold and silver start looking very good and even better once you understand the control the global, central banking system has over just about everyone on planet earth.

Kelly
7th April 2008, 11:30
Oil is abiotic. The earth produces it naturally. It is a naturally recurring renewable resource and carbon emissions are not bad for the environment. It is the naturally ocurring heat from the sun and numerous other normal machinations of natural earth cycles that cause carbon to rise.

I also think there is a high probability that the earth continually produces oil, but that doesn't mean that we haven't reached peak oil either. The deposits of oil we've already gone through in the last 100 years may have taken the earth millions of years to produce. In other words, though oil may indeed be abiotic, we've been going through it faster than nature can actually produce it. We desperately need to develop other forms of energy, but I don't think plant based energy like ethanol or biodiesel is necessarily the best way to go. I think if it comes down to feeding cars or feeding people, we may either have to develop far more mass transit systems and give up our cars or use another energy form to run them. The Oil shortages do not merely affect prices at the gas station. Blacktop requires oil too, and we can't repair and maintain our roads without abundant oil. There have been several articles published of late about how cities can barely afford the blacktop to keep potholes filled, while repaving a road or street for regular maintenance is almost out of the question.


Any effect we are having on the climate is negligible if there was even any way to tell. Unfortunately, the climate change scare is affecting the prices of many commodities in a big way. You have to keep in mind that using the word "Science" was one of the tactics communists wanted to use to get people to give away their rights. After all, the scientists are always right, aren't they? Oh no, scientific data could never be manipulated. Then there is the Hegelian Dialect I won't even bother to get into. It works like a charm though.

I don't know if our pollution of the atmosphere is producing "negligible" global warming or not, but I think it could only be a portion of what is going on. This planet has been going through global warming and cooling events forever. There have been 117 ice ages to date, or so say the geologists, and every single ice age ended because a global warming event took place. Global warming has actually been occurring since the end of the last ice age. In 3,500 BC the entire Middle and Near East was a lush, well-watered paradise and it turned to desert abruptly causing famine and starvation all over the land. The ancient archaeological texts are just full of descriptions of this event.

Furthermore, global warming is taking place throughout our entire solar system, as are curious changes in the magnetic and gravitational fields and even the elements contained in the atmospheres around planets are going through rapid change. It has astrophysicists all over our planet scratching their heads. The sun may indeed be the cause of it; we don't really know. Other scientists think that our entire solar system is going through some sort of radiation belt that probably began as a galactic core explosion, or a star going nova hundreds of thousands of light years away.

What does seem apparent is that one must today take the term "scientific consensus" with a grain of salt. The powers that be want a global carbon tax, and those same powers hand out the government grants and endowments from private organizations that fund the climactic studies. The "scientific consensus" literally must provide evidence supporting that CO2 is a major cause, because if they don't do that they won't get the grant money. Science relies upon the grant system, which is why there is so little real and reliable science today. Our science is bought and paid for by the same small group of dominant men who want the New World Order and want a global carbon tax. All scientists who disagree with the consensus theory are quickly booted out of the system, labeled a rogue or a "conspirator" and virtually ignored by the mass media. Just go to Google Video or YouTube and watch some of the videos that suggest another conclusion. Then look up some of the opposing articles on the internet. There are tens of thousands of climatologists who have refused to support the Kyoto establishment and not because they don't think climate change is going on, but because they believe the conclusions presented by the Kyoto pact amounts to pure manipulated bunk.

I think what they are doing "to fight global warming" is dangerous. It's resulted in countries ripping out tens of thousands of acres of rainforest in order to plant the latest "in" plant for making biodiesel or ethanol. From an environmental or ecological point of view, what they are doing is utterly insane.

“If more and more land is diverted for industrial biofuels to keep cars running, we have two years before a food catastrophe breaks out worldwide. It’ll be 20 years before climate catastrophe breaks out, but the false solutions to climate change are creating catastrophes that will be much more rapid than the climate change itself.” - Vandana Shiva, director of the Indian-based Research Foundation for Science, Technology, and Natural Resource Policy

DaveK
7th April 2008, 16:47
So, would it be true to say that the majority of people who hold bullion do so as a hedge against economic collapse? Hoping that their hoard will allow them some advantage in the event of a disaster?


I can't speak for the majority, but that is essentially the reason I am buying silver. My silver and gold coins are a bet that at some point in the future there will be an event that results in a situation where conventional money is either inaccessible or nearly valueless. In such a situation other objects of value will be traded in lieu of US dollars, either straight barter or widely valued substances such as gold and silver.

I assume that at the beginning of such a period there will be a great many people who are almost completely without liquid assets, who operate primarily cashlessly and who have only a small amount of silver or gold jewelery. They are also likely to have only minimal quantities of supplies stored at their homes.

In such a situation I'll want to have a reasonable quantity of easily tradeable units. I assume that I'll be trading primarily with people who have no sense of rarity-based value and so the only relevant feature of the silver or gold will be the quantity of pure metal. Thus I choose not to purchase any silver or gold which has any significant collectors value, as this extra cost above the base metal content will not be returned in the market in which I anticipate trading the item. Likewise, in the case of a dollar collapse, I prefer to have coins that are not marked with a value in US dollars, just in case I need to trade with someone who is skittish about dollars and prefers coins marked in troy oz.



Do you guys (meant in a non-sexist way) really believe that, short of an armed revolution, it is likely that the global financial system (it ain't just the US) will abandon its debt/interest bias?


I believe, first, that it is very much my responsibility to develop and control resources (physical and mental) that provide stability and prosperity for my family. Primarily this means developing a lifestyle that is much less dependent on 'the system' than the typical suburban American lifestyle. This means that I need to have a diversified array of methods to provide for myself and family without resorting to charity of others (which may or may not be available).

Precious metals are a component in this strategy. They are not the be-all and end-all of my planning. I will probably never hold, as some here evidently do, thousands of ounces of silver. Given my current and near future finances, that would be a misallocation of resources. Instead I'd be spending the money on equipment that reduces the cashflow that will be necessary in the future.

For example, rather than sinking $18,000 into a huge block of silver, I'd purchase the equipment to set up my home with an independent photovoltaic and wind power system. Or I might hire a permaculture expert and an arborist to help me set up my property for fruit and nut trees and other edible crops. These return my investment by reducing my cost for food and by decreasing my dependence on outside resources.



If so how likely?


That is an interesting question. Let's put it this way; I feel that I can live a fulfilling life without being tightly tied to the global economy. In fact, given the highly consumptive nature of the urban lifestyle I am currently engaged in, I think it is likely that a more rural, more localized lifestyle will be more fulfilling than what I am doing now. Thus, the bar for shifting my lifestyle is already quite low, it doesn't take a large risk of economic collapse to contribute in a significant way to my decision to 'drop out'.



It has been my experience that disaster/survival scenarios can become mentally unhealthy and create obsessions.


Quite so. That is why the communities I am involved in stress that survivalism is not the answer. Instead, localization, self-reliance and strong community are the focus. Most everyone I know who has an interest in this area has very little drive to achieve monetary wealth, instead the drive is often to have a healthy, sustainable and low environmental impact lifestyle and a culturally rich community in which to participate. And enough of an income to meet property tax requirements and provide occasional luxury goods.



Having said that, I do now that when the Euro was introduced to Italy that individual purchasing power was effectively halved over-night. [...] PM could be a good hedge against this scenario if a new currency is likely.


That is one of the situations I hold PM's. But, as I mentioned, I want to have other means as well, such as a reduced need to purchase the things I need to continue living a comfortable and fulfilling life.



I can't help wondering, though, if the additional costs for procuring physical bullion (12.5% on top of spot, to buy & sell through a dealer in Australia) are not a greater, more immediate risk to financial growth?

If financial growth is your primary goal than physical bullion may not be the best option. If you do not anticipate or choose not to protect yourself from game-changing circumstances during the period in which you will be doing your investing then taking delivery of your precious metals investments would not be warrented. I think that a great many of the people here rate the possibility a fundamental shift in our economic systems in the near future high enough that the added cost of taking delivery is worth the expense above the non-delivery alternatives.

Kelly
7th April 2008, 17:43
I'd purchase the equipment to set up my home with an independent photovoltaic and wind power system. Or I might hire a permaculture expert and an arborist to help me set up my property for fruit and nut trees and other edible crops. These return my investment by reducing my cost for food and by decreasing my dependence on outside resources….Quite so. That is why the communities I am involved in stress that survivalism is not the answer. Instead, localization, self-reliance and strong community are the focus. Most everyone I know who has an interest in this area has very little drive to achieve monetary wealth, instead the drive is often to have a healthy, sustainable and low environmental impact lifestyle and a culturally rich community in which to participate. And enough of an income to meet property tax requirements and provide occasional luxury goods.

DaveK, I think this is of utmost importance today. People who want to get out of Urban or Suburban lifestyles would be so much better off if they would just group together as co-ops, purchase raw farmland together, and hold that land in common, while their housing was their own personal property. Farmland is $2000 an acre versus 75K for an 1/8 acre suburban lot. Do the math. If people grouped together this way, they can help each other build houses, just like people helped each other build cabins and raise barns in the past. The Straw Bale housing construction method is absolutely perfect for this, is very adaptable as a group building project, and people don't need a whole lot of experience. This method negates the need to purchase exterior siding, insulation and sheetrock for walls. A good straw bale home will cut your heating and cooling needs by around 75% and has proven to be one of the most energy efficient homes a person can build. Groups planning small, more self reliant communities can work together to cut a lot of costs. Simply constructing a community where all the rain run off from roofs was funneled into a common pond would help insure that water was there to water gardens. Establishing a greywater system also makes sense and works to help create more locally sustainable communities.

Farmers think in terms of how they are going to market and sell the food they grow, but ultimately a small community concentrating on becoming sustainable, has to first figure out how to feed themselves. It's a whole lot cheaper and easier to find the solutions and implement them as a group than it is an individual family.

I would almost bet that no matter where you lived, you could put an add on Craig's list about a meeting for developing a small sustainable community, and you'd find plenty of people right in your own area who are interested in doing the same thing. By purchasing farmland as a group and building houses as a group, people should be able to cut their housing costs by at least 50%.

People don't want to be loner survivalists out in the middle of nowhere. We will all be much safer living in small, well-planned communities that are planned around the bottom line. Everybody needs food, shelter, energy and water; and it's a good time to start planning communities so that if the ax falls, these basic needs can still be met.

I'll look for some good links on straw bale housing. They make a whole lot of sense if somebody wants to reduce the money they have to borrow to get a home built.

Gino
7th April 2008, 19:26
Thanks for sharing that perspective with me, Trvlr45. Having just started with precious metals recently, I am finding the range of perspectives and motivations that people have, new and very interesting.

Listening to the news last night, I heard the ANZ Bank (one of our 4 major banks in Australia) has just announced it is writing down $1 billion in bad debt, youth homelessness has doubled in the last 20 years, rebel attacks in Iraq have increased . . . and that’s not the half of it!

But what does it matter whether these problems are perceived to be caused by the miss-management of well intentioned governments, the wilful enslavement of the global population by an elite sub-class, the result of actions by an ignorant environmentalist movement , or some combination of each? My caution is against obsessing over it. The instinct for survival in the face of events that appear to be beyond one’s control is driven by fear and conspiracy theories feed that fear and sense of helplessness until it is consuming.

In contrast, I read today that “Grace is the state of being that is unafraid of not being in control.”

That’s not to say I’m advocating mindless ignorance or the benefits of totalitarianism. I believe strongly in individual sovereignty and responsibility.

What I am learning, though, is that it is prudent to have a diversified asset base to guard against the unknown and unknowable. So I was happy yesterday to finally figure out how to buy Silver bullion economically here in Australia. There’s always that inertia to get over the first time you do something.

Thanks also DaveK, I congratulate you on holding such a balanced perspective. I identified with all you have said. Thanks for taking the time respond to my questions.

FedFixNix
7th April 2008, 22:02
This last page or two of posts have produced some of the best thinking I've seen on community survival planning, something I've been thinking about for years.

But as for "obsessing"? I couldn't agree any more that fear destroys, as do obsessions.

But we still have the semblance of a representative government, and I feel that its a part of being a responsible citizen to alert and inform both our neighbors, but our representatives as well. Perhaps they can still act in responsible ways, and keep the power grab at bay long enough to educate people about sensible solutions to the issuance and cotrol of our world's money and banking systems.

Even in a small survival community setting the possibilities are great for creating money (mediums of debt-free exchange) by using a LETS money system (Google it).

Welcome again, and thanks for the good discussions.

Kelly
7th April 2008, 23:12
LETS LINKS

http://www.gdrc.org/icm/lets-faq.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Exchange_Trading_Systems

http://www.transaction.net/money/lets/

http://www.lowimpact.org/linkslets.htm

http://www.gmlets.u-net.com/



STRAW BALE HOUSING LINKS

VIDEOS

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4251925297463146054&q=STRAW+BALE+CONSTRUCTION&total=48&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1887182810173093257&q=STRAW+BALE+CONSTRUCTION&total=144&start=40&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

http://www.strawbale.com/dvds/straw-bale-howto.html


WEBSITES

http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/info/components/envelope/framing/strawbale.html

http://www.mha-net.org/msb/html/gallery2.htm

http://www.newtonhouse.info/newsletter.htm

http://harvesthomes.ca/building/straw_bale_primer.pdf

http://www.earthandstraw.com/strawbale.html

Kelly
8th April 2008, 03:13
Thinking about and planning a small sustainable and more self reliant community is probably particularly interesting to Christians today, many of whom are concerned that recent political and economic occurrences may be signaling that the time of the prophesied beast is drawing near. Of particular concern is the requirement for a national identity card that implements an RFID swipe, as well as the possibility that RFID implants may one day be required for identification. All Christians know what the prophesies say; that no man may by or sell without "the mark of the beast," just as all Christians know that to take that mark is a direct violation of our faith.

So what's the answer for Christians, and how do we, as times get stranger, manage to live and keep our families safe? I have pondered this question for many years. Aside from a strictly survivalist concept which most people couldn't afford even if the idea appealed to them, one answer seems to be in the creation of small, sustainable communities that are planned with the bottom line in mind, and that means planning communities that meet the basic needs of food, shelter, energy and water and maintain that system so that when the day of the beast does come, people will at least have some chance of keeping their families protected. No community can ever be totally self sufficient unless one is willing to go without toilet paper, coffee and tooth paste, etc. so how does one buy what cannot be produced when the dark days do arrive? The only answer I have been able to come up with (and I've actually been thinking about this since I was a little child) is to incorporate as either a co-op community or as an employee owned privately held corporation. A corporation is not a person; it is an abstract legal entity. A corporation may have a bank account and it may even be issued an identity card for deposits and withdrawals, so essentially the corporation, which is but an abstract entity, could be used to bear the identity rather than the individual people that make up that corporation.

This would mean that people would have to think more like a co-op buying club does when they need to make purchases. If the day comes when no person may buy or sell but those that bear the mark, then that pretty much means that as an individual, it will be impossible to make any kind of purchase unless one has an RFID chipped card or implant. However, corporate entities can also buy and sell, and even be issued ID but the corporation itself is not a person. Therefore, I believe that Christians could use the blanket protection afforded by an employee owned corporation to protect themselves as individuals from having to personally violate a primary tenant of our faith.

This is the only way I can see to protect people from what may be coming down the road. Furthermore, such a plan would also give the members of each community the benefit of pooling their purchasing power so that they can buy what they need at the wholesale level rather than pay retail for everything. Even a small, tight knit community effort of only 72 families could easily meet most minimum wholesale purchase requirements for the things that they need. For instance, you wouldn't buy toilet paper in packages of 12 rolls; you'd buy it by the case instead. You wouldn't buy coffee in 3 lb tins, you buy it 50 lbs at a time, the same way your local coffee house does.

By the same token, if one has to sell goods or labor, one could conceivably do it under the blanket protection of a community based corporation, which again, would work to protect the individual from having to violate the tenants of our faith. Within the corporate community itself, one could use a LETS system, or a script system, or even print up one's own inner corporate money, but incorporating would conceivably allow people not to have to subject themselves personally to "the mark", while at the same time it would allow an abstract, non-human business entity to make the necessary purchases for them.

There would perhaps also be considerable advantages and protection in incorporating such a community under a non-profit status. Doing so, of course, does not mean that such a corporation can't make a profit; it only means that 20% (depending on the state) of those profits (or the equivalent) has to be donated to some charitable cause. There are significant property tax savings in choosing a non-profit status, and it also allows one to apply for donations and grants that profit based corporations do not necessarily qualify for.

This may not be the perfect answer, but I have pondered this puzzle for years and this is the only answer I can come up with so far.

I'd like to hear what other Christians think. Would this work? Ultimately, do we save ourselves by grouping together and in the process save our neighbors too?

Trvlr45
8th April 2008, 05:10
I also think there is a high probability that the earth continually produces oil, but that doesn't mean that we haven't reached peak oil either. The deposits of oil we've already gone through in the last 100 years may have taken the earth millions of years to produce. In other words, though oil may indeed be abiotic, we've been going through it faster than nature can actually produce it. We desperately need to develop other forms of energy, but I don't think plant based energy like ethanol or biodiesel is necessarily the best way to go. I think if it comes down to feeding cars or feeding people, we may either have to develop far more mass transit systems and give up our cars or use another energy form to run them. The Oil shortages do not merely affect prices at the gas station. Blacktop requires oil too, and we can't repair and maintain our roads without abundant oil. There have been several articles published of late about how cities can barely afford the blacktop to keep potholes filled, while repaving a road or street for regular maintenance is almost out of the question.



I don't know if our pollution of the atmosphere is producing "negligible" global warming or not, but I think it could only be a portion of what is going on. This planet has been going through global warming and cooling events forever. There have been 117 ice ages to date, or so say the geologists, and every single ice age ended because a global warming event took place. Global warming has actually been occurring since the end of the last ice age. In 3,500 BC the entire Middle and Near East was a lush, well-watered paradise and it turned to desert abruptly causing famine and starvation all over the land. The ancient archaeological texts are just full of descriptions of this event.

Furthermore, global warming is taking place throughout our entire solar system, as are curious changes in the magnetic and gravitational fields and even the elements contained in the atmospheres around planets are going through rapid change. It has astrophysicists all over our planet scratching their heads. The sun may indeed be the cause of it; we don't really know. Other scientists think that our entire solar system is going through some sort of radiation belt that probably began as a galactic core explosion, or a star going nova hundreds of thousands of light years away.

What does seem apparent is that one must today take the term "scientific consensus" with a grain of salt. The powers that be want a global carbon tax, and those same powers hand out the government grants and endowments from private organizations that fund the climactic studies. The "scientific consensus" literally must provide evidence supporting that CO2 is a major cause, because if they don't do that they won't get the grant money. Science relies upon the grant system, which is why there is so little real and reliable science today. Our science is bought and paid for by the same small group of dominant men who want the New World Order and want a global carbon tax. All scientists who disagree with the consensus theory are quickly booted out of the system, labeled a rogue or a "conspirator" and virtually ignored by the mass media. Just go to Google Video or YouTube and watch some of the videos that suggest another conclusion. Then look up some of the opposing articles on the internet. There are tens of thousands of climatologists who have refused to support the Kyoto establishment and not because they don't think climate change is going on, but because they believe the conclusions presented by the Kyoto pact amounts to pure manipulated bunk.

I think what they are doing "to fight global warming" is dangerous. It's resulted in countries ripping out tens of thousands of acres of rainforest in order to plant the latest "in" plant for making biodiesel or ethanol. From an environmental or ecological point of view, what they are doing is utterly insane.

“If more and more land is diverted for industrial biofuels to keep cars running, we have two years before a food catastrophe breaks out worldwide. It’ll be 20 years before climate catastrophe breaks out, but the false solutions to climate change are creating catastrophes that will be much more rapid than the climate change itself.” - Vandana Shiva, director of the Indian-based Research Foundation for Science, Technology, and Natural Resource Policy

Kelly,

I couldn't agree more. It sounds like you have come across the same information I have. The earth does manufacture oil and you are right about peak oil in the respect that we have gotten to all the cheap stuff but there is plenty more.

A few years ago I was listening to a talk show and they were discussing the peak oil subject. They were talking about how there is so much oil under the sea floor below the Gulf of Mexico it is leaking through the sea-bed and rising to the surface at times. There are huge reserves off the coast of Alaska and on the North Slope as well which probably explains why our illustrious government is giving away five of the islands off the coast of Alaska to Russia. They are always looking out for our best interests. After all, Canada, China and I believe Cuba and the French are drilling for oil just off the coast of Florida because we can't. Rumor has it China is slant drilling into our supply.

A surfer who lives down there called the show and confirmed it by stating that there were days he couldn't surf because there was too much oil in the water. I think we are way past paying enough for gas to go after the more expensive stuff especially with the new technologies I'm sure they have that they didn't have 30 years ago. I think we passed that point back at about $1.00 a gallon. Just my personal opinion. Gas is .40 a gallon in parts of South America if a report I heard a while back was correct.

The falling dollar has a lot to do with the gas prices as well considering oil is backing the dollar. I simply don't trust anything I hear from our government or for that matter pretty much any government. They have been caught lying far too many times.

As far as me giving up my car I'll believe it is time to do that when the elites park their Gulf Stream jets and their limo's. Mass transit is impossible in this country unless you live in one of the huge population centers and work there as well. This country is too big and too spread out. In addition to that forced mass transit is an assault on our freedom in a big way and would raise taxes even more since everything the government does costs five times what the private sector can do it for. That way they can skim money from the top for "other things". Like "fingerpainting therapy" in California. Yes it's true they did have that at one time. They probably still do. That way the extended families of various politicians can have $100,000 a year jobs while doing literally nothing.

Your comments on the various natural causes of climate change and the possible man-made causes I agree with but the fact of the matter is no one knows anything for sure and I'm irrate over them already wanting to add new taxes based on pure speculation.

You are also correct in stating that the universe is warming which is why they recently found signs of water on Mars. I have heard no reports of automobiles, planes or any coal fired powerplants on Mars which kind of puts a damper on what they want us to believe. Furthermore, from what the founder of the weather channel has been saying the warming stopped 9 years ago. Considering what I do for a living I can say that I don't see any signs of warming around this country. This was the worst winter I have seen in a long time.

You are also right about certain people being paid or threatened, whatever the case may be, to deliver the "proper" scientific results. I heard a meteorologist named Dr. Gray, one of the most experienced, say in an interview that research money is pulled if the "results" aren't what some people want. Saudi Arabia is also a very big contributor to Green Peace as well as other "green" groups as well I'm sure.

If they weren't printing up trillions in worthless paper or creating it in cyberspace as they are now none of this would be happening. It is nothing short of legalized, global counterfeiting so they can make billions every year in interest payments but once again I'm singing to the choir.

As far as some cities reporting that they can't afford to repair their roads that is an easy one to explain. Many of the big cities are full of nothing but people collecting a check from the state, government or counties. They have a social program for everyone and $100,000 a year jobs for the extended families of the various politicians and because of that they have taxed many of the people who actually produce something out so while they spend millions on nothing they reduce the tax base. After all, who would live in Detroit if they had a choice?

A few years ago 49% of all the people living around the Sacramento area in CA were state workers and I'm sure it hasn't changed. They use the money everyone pays in taxes for infrastructure to buy votes just as FDR did with the Raw Deal and the infrastructure suffers because of it. I'll gaurantee you over half those jobs don't even need to exist. There are thousands of state funded child care facilities in CA. Whatever happened to people raising their own children? Those are just a couple of many examples that result in the cities not being able to afford to do what they are supposed to be doing.

Corruption is why they can't repair the roads and why our bridges fall down. Climate change is a way to pay for the corruption.

Kelly
8th April 2008, 11:17
A few years ago I was listening to a talk show and they were discussing the peak oil subject. They were talking about how there is so much oil under the sea floor below the Gulf of Mexico it is leaking through the sea-bed and rising to the surface at times. There are huge reserves off the coast of Alaska and on the North Slope as well which probably explains why our illustrious government is giving away five of the islands off the coast of Alaska to Russia. They are always looking out for our best interests. After all, Canada, China and I believe Cuba and the French are drilling for oil just off the coast of Florida because we can't. Rumor has it China is slant drilling into our supply.

I hadn't heard anything about selling islands off the coast of Alaska to Russia. Please tell us more. Also, what do you mean "After all, Canada, China and I believe Cuba and the French are drilling for oil just off the coast of Florida because we can't"? Why can't we? What is preventing us? How come they can drill off the Coast of Florida and we can't? Is it because of money? Well if the Fed can print up billions to bail out the other banks, and GW can spend billions on a war in Iraq that accomplishes nothing, why can't they spend that money and drill off the coast of Florida instead? Again, please tell us more.


Mass transit is impossible in this country unless you live in one of the huge population centers and work there as well. This country is too big and too spread out. In addition to that forced mass transit is an assault on our freedom in a big way and would raise taxes even more since everything the government does costs five times what the private sector can do it for. If you look at the NAFTA superhighway plans they do seem to include a high speed rail system similar to the kinds that are in Europe. Mexico, which is a way poorer nation than we are, has a much better mass transit system. They have trains all over the nation that allows people to travel anywhere, and if there is not a train there is a bus system that goes from town to town, even the small towns. I don't think of mass transit as an assault on anybody's freedom. Those who can afford the gas will still be able to drive, no matter how high gas goes, while those who can't afford to drive will truly have their freedom taken away from them unless mass transit becomes a real goal in this country. I live near a large city that has one of the best mass transit systems in America. Within the city it even has a full system that accommodates people in wheel chairs and people who are physically impaired in some way. People who have physical disabilities move here from all over the country for that very reason.

I believe mass transit is entirely possible, even in the smaller communities, but the only way to do that economically would be to "go up" rather than think in terms of a ground based system. For instance, think of the gondola cable cars that go from one skiing chalet to the next in parts of the Swiss Alps. One doesn't need mountains to plan such a system. We could devise a system that went from the 5th floor of one building, to the 10th floor of another which was several blocks away. It seems to me that an "Air Tram" system running on cables would be so much cheaper than attempting to build and maintain more streets and roads. It isn't anything that could be accomplished overnight, of course, but it is something that all New Communities could incorporate into their plans.

Today most communities are built based upon the square concept which is not really very adaptable to mass transit. However, if New Communities are planned out like a wheel rather than a square, things fall into place much easier. Think of a bicycle wheel. The hub of the wheel is where grocery stores, shopping, offices and entertainment (etc.) is located. The outer rim of the wheel is where the housing communities are located. The spokes of the wheel is the land mass reserved for growing most of the food that community will need. An Air Tram system then could easily go from the central commons building that serves as a housing community center to the tallest building in the main hub which serves as the town center. You could even lay four "New Wheel Communities" out like a block and connect them by another Central Hub, again running an Air Tram system from each of the four hubs to the Central hub.

I've been working with this concept for over 25 years now and have hundreds of drawings on my computer proving that designing New Communities around a wheel shaped system rather than a square, is a far better plan for all New Communities and it solves a whole lot of problems.

The housing along the outer rim can be arranged in small developments like numbers are placed on a clock face. Essentially, you'd have 12 housing communities placed along the outer rim of the wheel, and each one of those communities would have a large, multi-storied building that served many functions. That building takes the place of the strung out strip malls that require huge parking lots and lots of land. Each housing community therefore has it's centrally located hub, and those twelve housing communities connect up to the hub of the main wheel. This works, I know it does because I've been drawing it out for years.

Granted, such a system does not solve the problems for the towns and cities that are already built, but it DOES solve the problems inherent in "suburbia" where 99% of the new housing starts take place today.

This plan is easy to draw out on your computer. Just draw out a square then place a large circle inside the square so the lines touch. Now divide that circle into 12 equal parts just like you were slicing a pie. Next place 12 smaller circles labeled "housing" just inside the main circle, along the rim of the wheel, as if they were numbers on a clock face. Then add another circle in the center of the main circle, and mark this "town center". It's not complicated, and this basic pattern works ten thousand times better than "suburbia" does, which is, at least in my opinion, one of the most ridiculously designed and impractical plans for human habitat imaginable.

I started working with this plan years ago when I was intensely trying to determine what the biblical New Jerusalem was really all about. This layout just sort of "came to me." Later, I was shocked to discover that over the centuries several other people had arrived at precisely the same layout when they too were puzzling about what the last two chapters of the Bible was all about.

You could, in fact, place this same basic layout on a square of land that encompassed either 1,440 acres (37.947 acres to the side), 144 acres (12 acres to the side), or 14.4 acres (3.79 acres to the side) and you would have an exact microcosm of the macrocosmic city described in the last two chapters of the Bible.

This plan has never ceased to amaze or excite me, and I've been working with it rather intensely since about 1981. When you use this basic plan as the primary building block for human habitat, remarkable things begin to happen. You can lay four 144 acre "wheels" out in a block and connect them with a Central Hub to form a Township. You can lay four townships (16 wheels) out in a block, again connecting them by a central Hub to form a larger town. You can lay four larger towns (64 wheels) out in a block to form a small city and so forth. This plan keeps the food growing areas WITHIN the community and radically reduces the need to have food shipped thousands of miles.

It is an amazing plan when you get into it. I think building communities this way would solve a myriad of problems that we now face. I don't know who originally figured it out, maybe it was Jesus himself, who knows? I only know that when one works with this plan, many of the problems we now face, particularly transportation problems, are a whole lot easier to solve.

And there is a remarkable thing about this specific plan that has a whole lot to do with our sovereignty as a nation and our heartfelt desire to keep our first amendment rights. I'll tell you about it in another post.

Kelly
8th April 2008, 14:20
Today, all over America I suspect people are looking at the troubled times on the horizon and thinking they wish they were living in a community that was set up and planned to be able to go through troubled times with the least amount of hassle. I know millions of Americans today are very, very worried about the cost of food, housing and energy. The word "sustainable community" seems to be on the lips of nearly every politician out there these days, but in truth, what they call "sustainable" seems only designed to accommodate the wealthy, while the rest of us poor schmucks aren't being given many options.

Many places in Canada and Europe have been focusing on the sustainable community concept for several decades now, attempting to create new communities that are designed to preserve and enhance good environmental practices, rather than systems which degrade and pollute the environment. Furthermore, many Europeans and Canadians look upon Americans with considerable disdain because we are not doing the same. And they've got a point.

However, the grim facts are that in most states in America, it's literally "against the law" to form a sustainable community that incorporates the concept that allows people to raise the major portion of the food that community's residents will need to consume. Why is this going on? It's because nearly every state in America has enacted so called "environmental laws" which are supposed to "save and preserve America's farmland." And many of those laws were adopted by states during the 80's because well-funded environmental groups lobbied state legislatures to pass strict laws restricting the number of houses that could be placed on land zoned "agriculture."

Now on the surface, it all sounded well and good and so very intelligent and the "right thing to do," but unfortunately, well-funded environmental lobbyist groups are often financed by the same wealthy handful of scum sucking, money grubbing, mammon worshiping dictators that we have been discussing at considerable length on this thread. And I do fear they had a very devious plot in mind, indeed!

In many states, land zoned agricultural was not allowed to be broken up into smaller acreages, and laws were adopted that required that farmers had to "sell all or nothing at all." Hence when farmers had a bad year due to the weather or economic manipulations, or perhaps even faced serious medical expenses, they couldn't sell a part of their land to meet their mortgages and bills; they were required by law to sell their entire farm. As land prices escalated, more and more small farms went under and were bought up by the huge agricultural corporations that now farm thousands and thousands of acres all across our nation today. Unfortunately, the vast majority of those farmers are under contract to Monsanto, the bio-tech firm producing GMOs (genetically modified organisms) and those folks are literally patenting the genetic code of most plants and animals that are part of our basic food chain. Some sicko Supreme Court Federal Judge determined that Monsanto has the right to patent life forms as "intellectual property!" So they take basic grain or cotton or corn, genetically modify it to be "Round Up Ready" and insert the natural pesticide, BT, specifically known as "Bacillus thuringiensis", so that the plants have been genetically modified to actually contain the pesticide as part of the plant's DNA code. Then Monsanto literally patents the ENTIRE genetic code of the plant. By doing so, they drive all farmers that don't grow their particular seed out of business by suing them for patent infringements. A type of grain, for instance, that has been growing for hundreds of years may naturally contain 75% of the DNA chains that Monsanto has underhandedly patented.

The same thing is going on with livestock on the factory farms (CAFOs; "Concentrated Animal Feed Operation"). They take a regular pig, change it's genetic code slightly, and then patent the entire genetic code of that pig. Therefore, any pig farmer that has been raising a breed of pigs that has never been genetically modified, again, gets sued by Monsanto for patent infringements, because 75% of the DNA in a normal pig was used as the basis for the Monsanto patents. It's really a very sick and diabolical plan for controlling the entire world's food supply.

One Monsanto executive was actually even quoted saying, "We want to control the global food supply." He made no bones about it. And another told investigative reporters, "We are not about reducing waste and feeding the world, we are about making money." This is no joke, folks. It is grim reality.

So essentially, states all across the USA were suckered into enacting laws which were supposedly put in place to "save the farmland," but ultimately those laws were a very devious and manipulative plot to control food in the same way that oil or banking has been controlled by a mere handful of dominant men.

But food is only half the story…

The other half of that story involves the housing industry.

99% of the new housing starts today take place in suburbia as suburban sprawl basically annexes farmland that had previously been in food production. This happens when the local Metro Planning Committee and Zoning Committee put their heads together and decide the housing industry needs another shot in the arm. But it also happens because Mr. "I am the Rich Agro Corp farmer" calls in a few favors with the good old boy network running the city planning commission, and wants his land to be the next land annexed by the city for new housing developments. Now, Mr. "I am the Rich Agro Corp farmer" only paid market price for agricultural land when he drove the small farmer off his acreage in the first place. The fair market value for agricultural land is about $2000 an acre where I live, and may be more or less in your area, depending on your local land values.

But, when this rezoning takes place, OVERNIGHT land that was valued at $2000 an acre is split up into eight suburban 1/8 acre lots valued at no less than $75,000 a lot. Do the math people. If 144 acres gets approved for new housing, the original cost of that land was approximately $288,000. Overnight that same 144 acres suddenly becomes worth $86,400,000!!! Yes, you read that correctly. That is eighty six MILLION, four hundred thousand dollars! That is a profit of $86,112,000 thousand dollars on a 144 acre parcel of land! And it happens overnight! It happens the moment that farmland is rezoned for residential housing! This same scenario is being played out in every city and town across America today, and this is one of the PRIME reasons "affordable housing" has become a much longed for myth in our society. Fully 1/3 of the cost of a home is tied up in the land that house sits on. Basically that 1/8 acre lot used to be part of a piece of farmland, and it had a market value of only about $250. Yep! Do the math! It's just absolutely mind-boggling.

So, if you guys are ticked off about the Fed and the bankers, I am telling you flat out it is high time you also got ticked off about what is happening to our food supply and our housing, because it is all part of the same New World Order Plan for complete Global Control held in the hands of the wealthy few.

And you can't stop the Devil until you know what he's been doing…

DaveK
8th April 2008, 17:52
But, when this rezoning takes place, OVERNIGHT land that was valued at $2000 an acre is split up into eight suburban 1/8 acre lots valued at no less than $75,000 a lot. Do the math people. If 144 acres gets approved for new housing, the original cost of that land was approximately $288,000. Overnight that same 144 acres suddenly becomes worth $86,400,000!!! [...] Fully 1/3 of the cost of a home is tied up in the land that house sits on. Basically that 1/8 acre lot used to be part of a piece of farmland, and it had a market value of only about $250.

The lot my house was built on (it's 18 months old and I was on-site during the build) is slightly over 1/4 acre and was priced at $25,000. Of that, $10,000 was my share of the electrical, water, sewer and road systems that were built out for the subdivision, leaving about $15,000 in land value, or about $60,000 per acre.

Down the street there are two more large properties of around 250 acres each that are currently zoned agricultural and are for sale for about $12 million, or about $48,000 per acre. Once a developer buys these and does the necessary work (rezoning, platting, flood cert, road, sewer, electrical, gas, water, etc), the lots will probably be in a similar price range as mine.

While the land did once sell for something in the few thousand dollar per acre range, that was decades ago, before the expanding borders of the city of Omaha made it clear that people would pay more for it for other purposes.

There doesn't seem to be any mystery or conspiracy here. As farmland that is not located near a city 'the market' (that is, people who will buy stuff) will pay a certain amount. The same acre with a city nearby will have a greater market value. While the 'book' value may appear to go up suddenly, this is only because it is fixed at the time of sale. The true market value can be assumed to have risen at an averate rate over time, but the value at any given time during that period is somewhat indeterminate unless there are other similar properties sold in the area ('comps' in real estate jargon) from which one can more accurately estimate a price.

Also related to your post and possibly of interest, until recently here in Nebraska corporations were not allowed to own farms. I think they changed that a couple of years ago though:

http://www.iptv.org/mtom/archivedfeature.cfm?Fid=430

Probably never worked anyway, people are sneaky when it comes to making money, and nobody is looking very closely at the details of how individual farms are operated. I think that this was an example of misguided legislation. You can't just flat-out ban something like this and expect it to work. Instead you have to create conditions that encourage those who you are governing to do what needs to be done. In this case, given the relative size of the state and way of doing business in the rest of the country, there is no way it could ever have worked.

Kelly
8th April 2008, 20:05
You are a mighty lucky man to have bought a housing lot for that price. I am not coveting your good fortune, but do feel openly envious. A $25,000 lot hasn't been seen around my state for decades. I was talking to a contractor friend a couple of months ago and he said he was finding it tough to find building lots for less than $250,000. I was floored. $60,000 an acre for land zoned for housing lots is simply unheard of here. But then I live in one of the states that adopted these so called "environmentally friendly" zoning policies nearly 25 years ago and it has resulted in a massive rise in housing costs making affordable housing something that is basically a thing of the past. By the same token I live in a zone 8 climate in an area known for its fertile farmlands. But the family farmers have been systematically driven off the land, while larger and larger agro-corporations control more and more acres. If your state is only now allowing corporations to run the farms, I think you are going to see the same thing happen in your area.

It doesn't happen over night, so it escapes most people's notice, yet bit by bit, it is as if some bizaar and invisible hand of increasingly malicious intent were directing the whole show until the people find themselves caught in a vise grip. As the housing market started to collapse here, people living in apartments that hadn't been refurbished in years were suddenly given eviction notices, and the owners went in and recarpeted and painted and then jacked the rent prices up by another $200. They were like piranhas waiting to devour the people who had just had their homes foreclosed on. We have more and more homeless and now even working families are living in their cars.

It may not be a "mystery" to you, (and I don't see it as much of a mystery either for that matter,) but what happens is a prime example of how Market Manipulation extends far beyond the precious metals market or even the banking industry for that matter. It is affecting all aspects of our basic human needs today. If this is how "true market value" is established, then something is inherently wrong with the basic parameters governing markets today. In my state, it certainly isn't a "free market system" that is driving the cost of housing up. What is driving the cost of housing up is the fact that housing is restricted on all land zoned agricultural, and nearly every acre in this state has been zoned as such until it is rezoned for new housing development. That's not a free market; that's a manipulated and controlled market.

Now that corporations are allowed to farm in Nebraska, you'd better keep a very close look at what bills are before your State Legislation. I can almost promise you that soon an environmental lobby will move in and demand that housing be restricted on all agricultural land "to save the farmland," and once that happens, $25,000 lots will quickly become a thing of the past as will affordable housing in Nebraska.

It isn't a "free market" based upon the laws of supply and demand when the supply is artificially restricted in a manner that ultimately insures that only corporate interests can buy land while they force the individual landowner into selling. That's manipulation; plain and simple.

It leads to a one world government where the only store selling consumer goods is Wal-Mart, all grocery stores will supply you with food grown by seeds produced by Monsanto, and the only bank in town is another branch of the Fed. It leads to monopolies, and monopolies are NOT free market institutions.

The unfortunate reality is that it is happening in all countries of the world.

"The New World Order will be built, an end run on national sovereignty, and eroding it piece by piece will accomplish much more than the old fashioned frontal assault." – Council on Foreign Relations Journal, 1974, p. 558

Trvlr45
9th April 2008, 07:44
I hadn't heard anything about selling islands off the coast of Alaska to Russia. Please tell us more. Also, what do you mean "After all, Canada, China and I believe Cuba and the French are drilling for oil just off the coast of Florida because we can't"? Why can't we? What is preventing us? How come they can drill off the Coast of Florida and we can't? Is it because of money? Well if the Fed can print up billions to bail out the other banks, and GW can spend billions on a war in Iraq that accomplishes nothing, why can't they spend that money and drill off the coast of Florida instead? Again, please tell us more.

If you look at the NAFTA superhighway plans they do seem to include a high speed rail system similar to the kinds that are in Europe. Mexico, which is a way poorer nation than we are, has a much better mass transit system. They have trains all over the nation that allows people to travel anywhere, and if there is not a train there is a bus system that goes from town to town, even the small towns. I don't think of mass transit as an assault on anybody's freedom. Those who can afford the gas will still be able to drive, no matter how high gas goes, while those who can't afford to drive will truly have their freedom taken away from them unless mass transit becomes a real goal in this country. I live near a large city that has one of the best mass transit systems in America. Within the city it even has a full system that accommodates people in wheel chairs and people who are physically impaired in some way. People who have physical disabilities move here from all over the country for that very reason.

I believe mass transit is entirely possible, even in the smaller communities, but the only way to do that economically would be to "go up" rather than think in terms of a ground based system. For instance, think of the gondola cable cars that go from one skiing chalet to the next in parts of the Swiss Alps. One doesn't need mountains to plan such a system. We could devise a system that went from the 5th floor of one building, to the 10th floor of another which was several blocks away. It seems to me that an "Air Tram" system running on cables would be so much cheaper than attempting to build and maintain more streets and roads. It isn't anything that could be accomplished overnight, of course, but it is something that all New Communities could incorporate into their plans.

Today most communities are built based upon the square concept which is not really very adaptable to mass transit. However, if New Communities are planned out like a wheel rather than a square, things fall into place much easier. Think of a bicycle wheel. The hub of the wheel is where grocery stores, shopping, offices and entertainment (etc.) is located. The outer rim of the wheel is where the housing communities are located. The spokes of the wheel is the land mass reserved for growing most of the food that community will need. An Air Tram system then could easily go from the central commons building that serves as a housing community center to the tallest building in the main hub which serves as the town center. You could even lay four "New Wheel Communities" out like a block and connect them by another Central Hub, again running an Air Tram system from each of the four hubs to the Central hub.

I've been working with this concept for over 25 years now and have hundreds of drawings on my computer proving that designing New Communities around a wheel shaped system rather than a square, is a far better plan for all New Communities and it solves a whole lot of problems.

The housing along the outer rim can be arranged in small developments like numbers are placed on a clock face. Essentially, you'd have 12 housing communities placed along the outer rim of the wheel, and each one of those communities would have a large, multi-storied building that served many functions. That building takes the place of the strung out strip malls that require huge parking lots and lots of land. Each housing community therefore has it's centrally located hub, and those twelve housing communities connect up to the hub of the main wheel. This works, I know it does because I've been drawing it out for years.

Granted, such a system does not solve the problems for the towns and cities that are already built, but it DOES solve the problems inherent in "suburbia" where 99% of the new housing starts take place today.

This plan is easy to draw out on your computer. Just draw out a square then place a large circle inside the square so the lines touch. Now divide that circle into 12 equal parts just like you were slicing a pie. Next place 12 smaller circles labeled "housing" just inside the main circle, along the rim of the wheel, as if they were numbers on a clock face. Then add another circle in the center of the main circle, and mark this "town center". It's not complicated, and this basic pattern works ten thousand times better than "suburbia" does, which is, at least in my opinion, one of the most ridiculously designed and impractical plans for human habitat imaginable.

I started working with this plan years ago when I was intensely trying to determine what the biblical New Jerusalem was really all about. This layout just sort of "came to me." Later, I was shocked to discover that over the centuries several other people had arrived at precisely the same layout when they too were puzzling about what the last two chapters of the Bible was all about.

You could, in fact, place this same basic layout on a square of land that encompassed either 1,440 acres (37.947 acres to the side), 144 acres (12 acres to the side), or 14.4 acres (3.79 acres to the side) and you would have an exact microcosm of the macrocosmic city described in the last two chapters of the Bible.

This plan has never ceased to amaze or excite me, and I've been working with it rather intensely since about 1981. When you use this basic plan as the primary building block for human habitat, remarkable things begin to happen. You can lay four 144 acre "wheels" out in a block and connect them with a Central Hub to form a Township. You can lay four townships (16 wheels) out in a block, again connecting them by a central Hub to form a larger town. You can lay four larger towns (64 wheels) out in a block to form a small city and so forth. This plan keeps the food growing areas WITHIN the community and radically reduces the need to have food shipped thousands of miles.

It is an amazing plan when you get into it. I think building communities this way would solve a myriad of problems that we now face. I don't know who originally figured it out, maybe it was Jesus himself, who knows? I only know that when one works with this plan, many of the problems we now face, particularly transportation problems, are a whole lot easier to solve.

And there is a remarkable thing about this specific plan that has a whole lot to do with our sovereignty as a nation and our heartfelt desire to keep our first amendment rights. I'll tell you about it in another post.

Kelly,

I'll have to get back to you with a response about the giving away of our islands to Russia. I'm on my way to VA. No time right now. As far as us not being able to drill for oil off the coast of FL it is because of the various eco-terrorist groups. The same reason we can't drill up in ANWAR. Keeping in mind that none of those countries, especially China, have the environmental restrictions we have to follow it makes you wonder.

Trvlr45
9th April 2008, 07:55
Kelly,

World Net Daily had an article on the eight. not five islands the US government is giving away to Russia. Just google "US gives away Alaskan Islands to Russia" or something similar. It took me about 1 minute to find it. My computer skills aren't quite as good as yours so I wasn't able to take the time to figure out how to insert the link or the article eventhough I downloaded it. It is quite a big story, you won't have any problem finding info on it.

Gotta go.

Trvlr45

Kelly
9th April 2008, 10:44
Trvl45- Thanks so much, I'll look for the article. And FYI, you don't need good computer skills to post a link. It's really easy and somebody just needs to teach you the trick. When you want to copy the link to a site, just look at the top bar of your screen where the URL address is displayed, highlight the entire address with your mouse, then hold down the "control" key and the "C" key at the same time. "Control + C" copies the address. To display that address in your post, (or in a document you are typing in MSWord) hold down "Control + V" and this will display the address you have just copied and insert it in your post at the point where your cursor is.

You'll be posting links in no time. :)

silverheartbone
18th December 2011, 17:22
http://www.saybump.com/files/CrystalBumpClearBkgrnd400.gif

Boomer
18th December 2011, 20:52
Market Manipulation is the only reason we can buy Silver and Gold So Cheap . Hope they Manipulate Silver below 25 and Gold below 1500 - and I can buy some more.

Robert FGoens
18th December 2011, 20:58
http://www.saybump.com/files/CrystalBumpClearBkgrnd400.gif

They did the same thing to the baseball card market and the beenie baby market, they are just trying to keep good people down.