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silver_surfer
11th December 2008, 19:01
My job keeps getting worse as the econemy with many others. I work in the auto industry and We build parts for all the major auto companies american and Japanese..They cut so much on budgets and everything and see it getting much worst..Im wondering whos goin buy a new car anytime soon? Not many even with a bailout!! I betting ill be in unemployment line in few months...Im lucky enough I wheel n deal on the side and accumulate silver on weekly basis..I wont sell my silver anytime soon even if I did get unemployed but, I see it getting nasty in few months for everyone...People at work do not know anything about economics or pms...They think its goin get better in few months....
I told people over year ago to get out of the stocks..and people laughed they still think there goin have a job and people are goin buy cars...Sometime to select few I like to mention martial law and few other things ..Its just sickening how people are so mainstream...I think most poeple are just clueless...but its nice to buy there silver....

main1event
11th December 2008, 19:13
Yes, it will be worst. Really sorry to hear about your troubles, I've been there. No matter how bad it gets remember the important things in life, like family.

What state are you from?

Ardent Listener
11th December 2008, 19:23
Sorry to hear about your problems. I'm here in Ohio and this auto thing is going to be the third wave of the S hitting the fan here. First the steel goes, then the credit meltdown, and now the auto industry.

Say what you like about the American auto industry and auto workers. Sure changes should have been made a long time ago, but the auto industry and workers are a huge part of where our taxes and and money into the business community comes from. If they go down, then that will be the first offical day of the depression in my opinion. What happens when those guys default of their loans too? One out of ten jobs in America are directly auto related.

strongman shelford
11th December 2008, 19:26
Martial law won`t hurt you that much if you stay away from crowded cities.

If things get nasty, the great losers are the FOOD STORES owners.
Those are the first BIG victims in financial meltdowns.

Trust my words from experience.

silver_surfer
11th December 2008, 19:34
indiana here..do you all see where I'm getting at tho...who's goin buy a new car..its already rippling...and I agree it would cause a depressoin...~what do you all think...is there anything that can make someone feel safe enough to buy a new car right now when everyones job is on the line..or am I pessimistic..I will be fine myself but it looks really bad for most I think..for families with 2 car payments ..kids and a high mortgage..I have a small house payment and paid car and my gf works with me..so I'm fortunate to have low bills and a few knowledgable ways to make xtra income...what do u all thinks goin happen...

cdavport
11th December 2008, 19:34
Martial law won`t hurt you that much if you stay away from crowded cities.

If things get nasty, the great losers are the FOOD STORES owners.
Those are the first BIG victims in financial meltdowns.

Trust my words from experience.

Expand on that, Strongman, what happened to the food stores. No inventory? Riots?

silver_surfer
11th December 2008, 19:37
that is one thing I'm goin to work on...food supply I've researched shelf live on common foods....tuna pasta peanutbutter..spam canned veg..all that good stuff

Ardent Listener
11th December 2008, 19:47
indiana here..do you all see where I'm getting at tho...who's goin buy a new car..its already rippling...and I agree it would cause a depressoin...~what do you all think...is there anything that can make someone feel safe enough to buy a new car right now when everyones job is on the line..or am I pessimistic..I will be fine myself but it looks really bad for most I think..for families with 2 car payments ..kids and a high mortgage..I have a small house payment and paid car and my gf works with me..so I'm fortunate to have low bills and a few knowledgable ways to make xtra income...what do u all thinks goin happen...

Some ideas. Warning: I'm known for bad ones at times. Feel free to add better ones.

1. Cut all sales taxes on new cars bought for 6 months. Each state can decide that for themselves.

2. A federal tax credit on all new cars that are assembled in the U.S.A.

3. A merger of the big three into one corporation with a reduction of product line with labor and management concessions Yes, there would still be a reduction of the workforce but if my #4 occurs it may not be all that long before they could be called back.

4. The production of "people's cars" that people can both afford and maintain even in a down economy. MPG is important of course, but even more important they need to realize the days of the rolling palace are over. If you can't roll down your window then see a doctor......

ascentient
11th December 2008, 20:20
OK, here are my retorts to your ideas:

1. Abolish privileges ascribed to labor unions. The only power they hold is in collective bargaining and industrial action. When people strike fire them. They can easily be replaced with some of the world's other 6.5 billion people who would gladly produce cheaper cars.

2. Abolish all tariffs. Protectionism just creates market gluts and creates false scarcity.

3. Abolish intellectual property laws. They create false scarcity from what is otherwise an unlimited resource.

4. Abolish taxes and government. Taxation is not needed for a society to function. The only valid uses for government are to create and establish laws. This can be done and enforced through contracts at a local level.

5. Abolish all laws except those that are established to protect physical property and people's physical bodies. Enforcement of these laws can be paid for and implemented at a local level. Any other laws can be established via contract.

6. Abolish corporations. The assumption of limited liability creates uninformed levels of risk in a society. Corporations serve no purpose that couldn't be established through unlimited liability based partnerships or joint ventures where responsibility for business decisions involves venturers risking real assets and forces absolute responsibility.

OK. That's my platform and I'm totally serious. Any form of society besides a libertarian one is flawed both philosophically and in practice and when I say libertarian I mean that described above - no compromise, no grey area.

The world is a set of overlapping anarchist factions - nothing more. These factions appear in the form of government, corporations, religions and communities/families. There is no consistent base for them to exist so they are constantly struggling with each other. This will never end until anarchy evolves into liberty - a mutual acceptance of the rights of holders of real property.

How does this affect the current situation? Well that depends on what outcome we desire. Unless we strive towards libertarianism every other outcome will be fleeting and hence even if achieved it will not last.

For example, the American auto industry is defunct. It produces relatively low quality products with high input costs in a high taxation environment and markets them to a customer base that doesn't need them. It cannot be saved in the sense that it is not *industry*. It is just a cost center on the economy. Industry creates and meets demand efficiently. That does not describe the American auto industry.

There are SO many problems that are surfacing in the world at present because the vast majority of people would disagree with some or all of my assertions and fight to prove them untrue.

At the end of each wave of inefficiency coming to light, intelligent people realize that they need to hold physical property and they need to survive. That is why I invest in gold and silver. It is an asset that carries us through each cycle before the new cycle begins.

That's my 2 cents. If you want to consider the solution to the auto industry's problems you can infer it from my principles. :)

fredrock
11th December 2008, 20:27
Any form of society besides a libertarian one is flawed both philosophically and in practice

You sound like one of the son's of Thomas Paine!:)

Glad to know yah!

Fred

cugir321
11th December 2008, 20:35
Learn to do sprouts. Very easy. Get a quart mason jar and a piece of mesquito type net to cover top. Search it on google. You can get all the trace elements if you sprout your seeds. Barley and wheat berries are close to the perfect food. You can sprout to 1 inch tail and grind in cusinart type machine....makes great flat bread, no oil, a little honey, cook at 350 for about 30 minutes. Nutrients stay potent at lower temp. Grow wheat or barley grass and juice or chew and spit out pulp...this is the proven best food on earth. Very easy to do! This will supplement your rice, spam, tuna, salmon, and pinto type stuff..By the way rice and pintos can keep you alive for a long time and are probably the most bang for the buck. Get white rice. It lasts 3-5 years longer in storage...you can get the important nutrients from hard winter wheat sprouts. You can even sprout pintos to about 1/4 inch tail...gives you necessary nutrients that aren't in dried, cooked, beans. Sprout with fennel seed and you won't fart your life away. You can sprout everything in the house. If you can see your hand you've got enough light...most sprout in the dark.

300.00 worth of pintos and rice will last about 1 year for 1 person. Get the basics to stay well and then add the comfort foods.


that is one thing I'm goin to work on...food supply I've researched shelf live on common foods....tuna pasta peanutbutter..spam canned veg..all that good stuff

research24
11th December 2008, 20:49
I buy silver because I think this country will collapse. We have a moral crisis that is the cause of all this, just like the USSR. Corruption is too widespread in every segment for there ever to be a recovery. The solution for all problems is more of the same, so how can anything ever improve?

Ardent Listener
11th December 2008, 20:51
OK, here are my retorts to your ideas:

1. Abolish privileges ascribed to labor unions. The only power they hold is in collective bargaining and industrial action. When people strike fire them. They can easily be replaced with some of the world's other 6.5 billion people who would gladly produce cheaper cars.

2. Abolish all tariffs. Protectionism just creates market gluts and creates false scarcity.

3. Abolish intellectual property laws. They create false scarcity from what is otherwise an unlimited resource.

4. Abolish taxes and government. Taxation is not needed for a society to function. The only valid uses for government are to create and establish laws. This can be done and enforced through contracts at a local level.

5. Abolish all laws except those that are established to protect physical property and people's physical bodies. Enforcement of these laws can be paid for and implemented at a local level. Any other laws can be established via contract.

6. Abolish corporations. The assumption of limited liability creates uninformed levels of risk in a society. Corporations serve no purpose that couldn't be established through unlimited liability based partnerships or joint ventures where responsibility for business decisions involves venturers risking real assets and forces absolute responsibility.

OK. That's my platform and I'm totally serious. Any form of society besides a libertarian one is flawed both philosophically and in practice and when I say libertarian I mean that described above - no compromise, no grey area.

The world is a set of overlapping anarchist factions - nothing more. These factions appear in the form of government, corporations, religions and communities/families. There is no consistent base for them to exist so they are constantly struggling with each other. This will never end until anarchy evolves into liberty - a mutual acceptance of the rights of holders of real property.

How does this affect the current situation? Well that depends on what outcome we desire. Unless we strive towards libertarianism every other outcome will be fleeting and hence even if achieved it will not last.

For example, the American auto industry is defunct. It produces relatively low quality products with high input costs in a high taxation environment and markets them to a customer base that doesn't need them. It cannot be saved in the sense that it is not *industry*. It is just a cost center on the economy. Industry creates and meets demand efficiently. That does not describe the American auto industry.

There are SO many problems that are surfacing in the world at present because the vast majority of people would disagree with some or all of my assertions and fight to prove them untrue.

At the end of each wave of inefficiency coming to light, intelligent people realize that they need to hold physical property and they need to survive. That is why I invest in gold and silver. It is an asset that carries us through each cycle before the new cycle begins.

That's my 2 cents. If you want to consider the solution to the auto industry's problems you can infer it from my principles. :)

While in principle I can respect much of what you wrote, can you give one example of such a total libertarian society currently or in the post historic past that lasted for any extended period of time? It appears to me that once a vaccum of goverment occurs, something, even if it is a criminal nation attacking, fills the void. Then men ban together in armies to fight the criminal nation, and thus goverment once again.

strongman shelford
11th December 2008, 20:59
Ok people asked me to "expand" the concept.
When a country collapses, people get mad.
They blocked the roads. Food shortages.
First victims: food stores owners. ( riots ,vandalism....you get the picture)
Depending on the resource availability in the country things can get from nasty to BIG DOOM.
Let`s say nasty is 1 and big doom is 10

If you don`t have enery indepedence, food independence, live in a crowded city, work at a bank, don`t have your own food, and all your savings are in the banks on in a "paper form or electronic form" then you are ready for the big doom, or 10 in the scale.


I think you get the picture.


Buying silver is only one part of the "survival kit".

I am VERY intrigued if USA government will take "care" of IRA`S money should a collapse takes place.

unalga
11th December 2008, 23:15
Boy o boy, no answers here.

See nothing but ugly down the line for the near term future.

Happy to still be working. Happy to be a senior member of my company and better yet well thought of in my industry so near term employment pretty certain.

Glad to have a place out of the city with some land.

Glad I have my PM's, some food, firearms and water supply.

Not a doomsayer myself, but I see sad times ahead.:mad:

And I am mad about what those in power have allowed to happen.

No matter who we vote for, it just keeps getting screwed up.

Trvlr45
12th December 2008, 01:36
Well, as far as jobs go mine has always sucked. I'm an OTR truck driver and about two years ago they started coming up with all kinds of ways to get you to do more for the same money which was not all that good to begin with. (80 hrs a week for a little over $50,000 a year) Now, you get zero time off if you want to keep the same paycheck. That's if your company hasn't gone out of biusiness.

It wasn't as bad as it sounds because of the tax benefits on all the deductions and not having to punch a time-clock but I believe THAT is coming to an end and can see audits every year by the Gestapo looking for anything and everything to say "NO" to. I was audited last year and they even tried to tell me that I couldn't deduct tolls that I had to pay out of pocket.

Since I can't afford a yearly audit which is what I see coming for ANYONE who itemizes I think it's time to put everything in storage and leave the country for a while. Almost everyone I know who itemizes has been audited in the last few years and since there are no clear cut rules for anything the Gestapo and congress can make them up as they go along just as they have for decades.

It's time to globe trot for a while. Iraq, here I come. There will be work there through private contractors for the next 50 years. The banksters aren't going to let their investments in the oil infrastructure there or anywhere else go to waste. IMO that is why we are there.

Hopefully, I'll be out of here in another six months and Iraq isn't the only place where contractors are hiring. The elites will make sure their oil, gas and mining companies feed their workers and they pay pretty well also.

We don't have the right to own property in this country anymore so why "own" anything. I'll come back after everything collapses and if it's a full blown dictatorship by then Panama and Costa Rica might stay free until after I'm gone.

Trvlr45
12th December 2008, 01:49
While in principle I can respect much of what you wrote, can you give one example of such a total libertarian society currently or in the post historic past that lasted for any extended period of time? It appears to me that once a vaccum of goverment occurs, something, even if it is a criminal nation attacking, fills the void. Then men ban together in armies to fight the criminal nation, and thus goverment once again.

We had a true libertarian society right here, Listener. But as Benjamin Franklin said, " You have a Republic, madaam, for as long as you can keep it."

The people didn't due their job and the banksters and the politicians took over. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are all anyone has to follow to fix 90% of the problems in this country.

Ron Paul, Pat Buchannan and most recently, Sarah Palin ALL know that and that is why they were all ridiculed and lambasted by the media and BOTH parties. We certainly can't have anyone who has actually read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights any where NEAR the Whitehouse, now can we. The slaves might get some of their freedom back.

valerb
12th December 2008, 02:53
OK, here are my retorts to your ideas:

1. Abolish privileges ascribed to labor unions. The only power they hold is in collective bargaining and industrial action. When people strike fire them. They can easily be replaced with some of the world's other 6.5 billion people who would gladly produce cheaper cars.

2. Abolish all tariffs. Protectionism just creates market gluts and creates false scarcity.

3. Abolish intellectual property laws. They create false scarcity from what is otherwise an unlimited resource.

4. Abolish taxes and government. Taxation is not needed for a society to function. The only valid uses for government are to create and establish laws. This can be done and enforced through contracts at a local level.

5. Abolish all laws except those that are established to protect physical property and people's physical bodies. Enforcement of these laws can be paid for and implemented at a local level. Any other laws can be established via contract.

6. Abolish corporations. The assumption of limited liability creates uninformed levels of risk in a society. Corporations serve no purpose that couldn't be established through unlimited liability based partnerships or joint ventures where responsibility for business decisions involves venturers risking real assets and forces absolute responsibility.

OK. That's my platform and I'm totally serious. Any form of society besides a libertarian one is flawed both philosophically and in practice and when I say libertarian I mean that described above - no compromise, no grey area.

The world is a set of overlapping anarchist factions - nothing more. These factions appear in the form of government, corporations, religions and communities/families. There is no consistent base for them to exist so they are constantly struggling with each other. This will never end until anarchy evolves into liberty - a mutual acceptance of the rights of holders of real property.

How does this affect the current situation? Well that depends on what outcome we desire. Unless we strive towards libertarianism every other outcome will be fleeting and hence even if achieved it will not last.

For example, the American auto industry is defunct. It produces relatively low quality products with high input costs in a high taxation environment and markets them to a customer base that doesn't need them. It cannot be saved in the sense that it is not *industry*. It is just a cost center on the economy. Industry creates and meets demand efficiently. That does not describe the American auto industry.

There are SO many problems that are surfacing in the world at present because the vast majority of people would disagree with some or all of my assertions and fight to prove them untrue.

At the end of each wave of inefficiency coming to light, intelligent people realize that they need to hold physical property and they need to survive. That is why I invest in gold and silver. It is an asset that carries us through each cycle before the new cycle begins.

That's my 2 cents. If you want to consider the solution to the auto industry's problems you can infer it from my principles. :)

Your principles sound more like you got out of the Marxist side of the bed this morning.

Do away with all government and there goes the military.

Nothing like not having a central government and going back to the dark ages where we have 40,000 little kingdoms here in the former USA.

Haven't you learned anything from history, those little kingdoms don't work. That's why they all joined together to form larger countries or were taken over by larger countries. This is not just something that happened a 1000 years ago, it's been going on forever and will continue to do so.

And the answer is NO, we can't all just get along!!!

The term, "only the strong survive" just happens to be true. I'm just old enough to have been alive during world war II. If it hadn't been for the Americans, the rest of the world would all have fallen in that war and probably in world war I as well.

All those militarily weak countries in Europe are in existence because of the backing of a strong American military. Right or wrong, that's just a matter of fact. Give up our government and strong military and the rest of the world will be over run in a matter of years by just a few of the strongest.

Who will protect us without a strong military? Millions of hand guns and rifles can't do it against a powerful foreign military. Even ultra left-wing Obama isn't that insane to give up the military. I seriously doubt he will even stop protecting the rest of the world.

I do agree that our laws are lop sided to favor the wealthy, but in general, they do protect all of us. A reversal of some of the corruption is in order, but it is not as if we are continually going down hill in that department. Corruption in past decades has been far worse than anything we see today.

As far as unemployment is concerned, it reached a peak of 25% and it took several years to reach that level.

We really need to shut down the unions and kill all contracts, then open the flood gates to all Central Americans to help drive down labor costs. Are you insane????????????????

That's the kind of thinking that has got us into this mess to begin with. NAFTA, CAFTA AND SHAFTA!!

Some smart ass decides to send his manufacturing jobs over to China to get an upper hand on his competitors. It works, now his competitors have to do the same thing to survive. When the entire industry has disappeared from our country and hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs, what was accomplished? The industry is just as competitive as before, only now all the jobs are in China or some other country. This has been repeated over and over again until one industry after another has disappeared from our country and millions have lost their jobs. It's not just those industries that have lost out in this insanity, but all of us. You can't put millions of people out of work without losing spending power as well. That affects all other industries. Then we top it off with a flood of unemployed individuals who are scrambling to find a job, any job. This drives down the pay scale for the rest of us. Too many workers and not enough jobs. The employers win and the workers lose, but wait a minute, isn't this more of the same old game in another form. Now the workers are making less money and are spending less, guess what, they can't afford to buy as much anymore and fewer products are being purchased. We just can't get enough of this downward spiral out of our system. We are finding more and more ways to send many more millions of jobs overseas. Pickup the phone and call for help and you are more than likely to be speaking to someone in India. Not bad people, but they used to be employed in our country and spending their money in "our" country. This is not limited to the computer industry, everyone uses them. Call your credit card company and you will in all likelihood be talking to a foreigner.

Now we have brilliant individuals blaming all of our problems on the unions, who are keeping the cost of labor too high. That's right, reduce everyone's wages and we'll have even less money to spend in "this" country.

You can't blame the unions for the auto industries problems, the auto industry created their own mess by pure greed. Yes that's right, pure greed. They thought they had the auto market sewed up tight and didn't have to worry about anything but making a big profit. Somewhere around the sixties or seventies, the Japanese started making cars that were better than ours and we took notice. Why buy American made cars that were more of a take it or leave it as is option? Just for the record, I have never bought a forgien made car. It wasn't until the Asians started taking a large percent of the auto industries sales volume that they decided to do something about it. What did they do, they started producing cars that had fewer and fewer defects when they left the factories. Then they decided to let the Asians have the small car market and they would concentrate on the more expensive American favorites. That worked for awhile until the auto industry got drug into the farm out our work to other countries binge. We have to do something, the Asians are gaining on us, they are now selling more mid-sized cars as well. We'll just have to out sell them on trucks and SUVs and large cars, after-all that's were the real profits are. Yes people it's all the unions fault, let's ban those worthless bastards.

If we are going to ban anything, let's ban companies from sending manufacturing jobs overseas. Let's bring all those jobs back to the USA that involve telephone work. That could be done in a matter of months at most and probably involves hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs. Force one industry at a time to bring their manufacturing jobs back to the USA. We will not have millions unemployed and a 7% unemployment rate which most know is much higher.

Many say that is was a protectionist attitude that really kicked off the Great Depression by adding tariffs. I personally don't care if it causes a great depression in India and China if we bring back our manufacturing base to this country. All I know is that if we make our own clothes and furniture in this country, we will put millions back to work along with all of their income to spend on other products. Sure there will be some inflation, but that can be made up in higher wages to offset it as in the past.

We have to go back to the basics and stop this downward spiral. We can't loan our way out of this mess, that only helps the most wealthy, while the rest of us keep going down hill.

Just for the record, I did work as a union member for the first six years after I got out of the Army and then spent the rest of my working career in management.

That's not my two cents worth, but an entire nickel!!!

skijake
12th December 2008, 03:12
Good points made by all. You guys are good.:)
No matter your position on the American automakers have you noticed this little drama unfolding.
3 of Americas most recognizable names in industry go begging, hat in hand for 14 billion. Denied
The finacials led by head cheerleader Paulsen DEMAND 700 billion [and more] or else! Approved
What a crock.:(

hiyosilver
12th December 2008, 03:35
I buy silver because I think this country will collapse. We have a moral crisis that is the cause of all this, just like the USSR. Corruption is too widespread in every segment for there ever to be a recovery. The solution for all problems is more of the same, so how can anything ever improve?


Mystery Babylon....

mizou
12th December 2008, 03:45
I am sorry to hear about the decision about the auto industry rescue package that has been declined and will affect soooooooo many in the industry.
What is good for the goose should be also good for the gander - If they decide to give recue packages they shouldn't be selective and only look after the top end of town, the alternative, they should stay out of the recue package business.


.......... Nothing like not having a central government and going back to the dark ages where we have 40,000 little kingdoms here in the former USA.

I have often thought about this subject of self sustainable / self determining small socities that have always failed....
But there is one thing that has entered the equasion .. "Communication".

Previously (after all the ritual bloosheding etc...) those 40,000 would have to send representatives to meet and discuss, form alliances, eventually form some form of goverment etc .... but today there is the ultimate tool that never existed before.. Will it make a difference?

And BTW, thanks for the daily updates on "December COMEX delivery - daily totals " (http://forums.silverseek.com/showthread.php?t=3287&page=6), very much appreciated.

Kayaker
12th December 2008, 04:24
Your principles sound more like you got out of the Marxist side of the bed this morning.

Do away with all government and there goes the military.

Nothing like not having a central government and going back to the dark ages where we have 40,000 little kingdoms here in the former USA.

Haven't you learned anything from history, those little kingdoms don't work. That's why they all joined together to form larger countries or were taken over by larger countries. This is not just something that happened a 1000 years ago, it's been going on forever and will continue to do so.

And the answer is NO, we can't all just get along!!!

The term, "only the strong survive" just happens to be true. I'm just old enough to have been alive during world war II. If it hadn't been for the Americans, the rest of the world would all have fallen in that war and probably in world war I as well.

All those militarily weak countries in Europe are in existence because of the backing of a strong American military. Right or wrong, that's just a matter of fact. Give up our government and strong military and the rest of the world will be over run in a matter of years by just a few of the strongest.

Who will protect us without a strong military? Millions of hand guns and rifles can't do it against a powerful foreign military. Even ultra left-wing Obama isn't that insane to give up the military. I seriously doubt he will even stop protecting the rest of the world.

I do agree that our laws are lop sided to favor the wealthy, but in general, they do protect all of us. A reversal of some of the corruption is in order, but it is not as if we are continually going down hill in that department. Corruption in past decades has been far worse than anything we see today.

As far as unemployment is concerned, it reached a peak of 25% and it took several years to reach that level.

We really need to shut down the unions and kill all contracts, then open the flood gates to all Central Americans to help drive down labor costs. Are you insane????????????????

That's the kind of thinking that has got us into this mess to begin with. NAFTA, CAFTA AND SHAFTA!!

Some smart ass decides to send his manufacturing jobs over to China to get an upper hand on his competitors. It works, now his competitors have to do the same thing to survive. When the entire industry has disappeared from our country and hundreds of thousands have lost their jobs, what was accomplished? The industry is just as competitive as before, only now all the jobs are in China or some other country. This has been repeated over and over again until one industry after another has disappeared from our country and millions have lost their jobs. It's not just those industries that have lost out in this insanity, but all of us. You can't put millions of people out of work without losing spending power as well. That affects all other industries. Then we top it off with a flood of unemployed individuals who are scrambling to find a job, any job. This drives down the pay scale for the rest of us. Too many workers and not enough jobs. The employers win and the workers lose, but wait a minute, isn't this more of the same old game in another form. Now the workers are making less money and are spending less, guess what, they can't afford to buy as much anymore and fewer products are being purchased. We just can't get enough of this downward spiral out of our system. We are finding more and more ways to send many more millions of jobs overseas. Pickup the phone and call for help and you are more than likely to be speaking to someone in India. Not bad people, but they used to be employed in our country and spending their money in "our" country. This is not limited to the computer industry, everyone uses them. Call your credit card company and you will in all likelihood be talking to a foreigner.

Now we have brilliant individuals blaming all of our problems on the unions, who are keeping the cost of labor too high. That's right, reduce everyone's wages and we'll have even less money to spend in "this" country.

You can't blame the unions for the auto industries problems, the auto industry created their own mess by pure greed. Yes that's right, pure greed. They thought they had the auto market sewed up tight and didn't have to worry about anything but making a big profit. Somewhere around the sixties or seventies, the Japanese started making cars that were better than ours and we took notice. Why buy American made cars that were more of a take it or leave it as is option? Just for the record, I have never bought a forgien made car. It wasn't until the Asians started taking a large percent of the auto industries sales volume that they decided to do something about it. What did they do, they started producing cars that had fewer and fewer defects when they left the factories. Then they decided to let the Asians have the small car market and they would concentrate on the more expensive American favorites. That worked for awhile until the auto industry got drug into the farm out our work to other countries binge. We have to do something, the Asians are gaining on us, they are now selling more mid-sized cars as well. We'll just have to out sell them on trucks and SUVs and large cars, after-all that's were the real profits are. Yes people it's all the unions fault, let's ban those worthless bastards.

If we are going to ban anything, let's ban companies from sending manufacturing jobs overseas. Let's bring all those jobs back to the USA that involve telephone work. That could be done in a matter of months at most and probably involves hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs. Force one industry at a time to bring their manufacturing jobs back to the USA. We will not have millions unemployed and a 7% unemployment rate which most know is much higher.

Many say that is was a protectionist attitude that really kicked off the Great Depression by adding tariffs. I personally don't care if it causes a great depression in India and China if we bring back our manufacturing base to this country. All I know is that if we make our own clothes and furniture in this country, we will put millions back to work along with all of their income to spend on other products. Sure there will be some inflation, but that can be made up in higher wages to offset it as in the past.

We have to go back to the basics and stop this downward spiral. We can't loan our way out of this mess, that only helps the most wealthy, while the rest of us keep going down hill.

Just for the record, I did work as a union member for the first six years after I got out of the Army and then spent the rest of my working career in management.

That's not my two cents worth, but an entire nickel!!!

Valerb: There are many good points in your post. One thing that could be addressed though, without the heavy hand tactics, is the $.14/$1.00 currency imbalance with China. By gravitating towards a more balanced ratio it could eliminate taking industry by industry steps to correct the trade deficit. But I have contacted my congressman and senators repeatedly on the subject and received no response, it's like a taboo subject. If no action is taken our economy will continue to spiral downwards and at some point imports will not be affordable at any price anyway. The same ends will be acheived, its just a choice of paths.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28022556/

Ardent Listener
12th December 2008, 14:42
Good points made by all. You guys are good.:)
No matter your position on the American automakers have you noticed this little drama unfolding.
3 of Americas most recognizable names in industry go begging, hat in hand for 14 billion. Denied
The finacials led by head cheerleader Paulsen DEMAND 700 billion [and more] or else! Approved
What a crock.:(

Yes, and now they are asking to take a little of that 700+ billion which was given, not loaned to the banks, and loan it to the big 3. But the banks aren't loaning out that money, they are buying each other up with it instead. Screw it, if I were the big 3 I would skip congress and go directly to China and ask for the loan. Cut out the middleman so to speak.

Trvlr45
12th December 2008, 16:07
There should be no bailouts for anyone including the millions of people in this clountry who lay around getting the various forms of welfare checks.

The banks and everyone else need to fail or we are all screwed. It is bailouts, handouts and taxpayer funded programs as well as all the state and government jobs and their pensions that have caused this mess.

Communism in any form doesn't work. Let a few of these companies, banks and individuals in this country learn the hard way and they won't be so quick to make stupid decisions in the first place.

The senate did the right thing. GM needs to send congress and the unions packing and take their companies back. Doing away with the ridiculous CAFE standards congress has foced on them is something else that needs to go.

It's time to drill for our own limitless supplies of oil and natural gas rather than let our own government force us to be dependent on our enemies for what we need. Globalism, multi-culturalism and environmentalism are killing this country.

main1event
12th December 2008, 17:22
Its funny how unions get blamed for everything. Yep its the working men and woman of this country that are to blame. Unions are a mere shell of what they used to be in this country. People used to be proud to buy American products and have American Jobs. It was corporations that started sending jobs overseas and having us compete against slave labor that destroyed America. CEO's enriching themselves with hundreds of millions of stock options, more than the whole work force. The company loses money, no problem, CEO lays off 100's of workers and CEO gets big bonus for cutting expenses. What a genius.

Did you know when unions were the strongest in this country the country was at its strongest.

The real problem is other countries can devalue their currency, they dont play fairly with us, and they impose tariffs on our products. We can never compete with other nations, they do not have the same human rights that we have, and the job safety that Americans have enjoyed. If they decide to pay their workers .05 an hour, they have no choice but to work for that wage because they are not free. Can you compete with that? Its a race towards the bottom.

Keep blaming Americans for all of our problems, Corporations have moved their bank accounts overseas so they dont have to pay taxes. They've moved our jobs away, they put our politicians in office, conglomerates own the media. They want to destroy Americans standard of living but I'll tell you, once unions are gone from this country nobody will be around to protect the Average worker. You're fired will mean you are black balled from ever working again, thanks to the modern day computer.

research24
12th December 2008, 18:48
Main, yours is an interesting and common argument.
I just wonder if you can explain why the foreign domestic automakers do very well while Detroit with its UAW pays it employees the highest labor rate in the world, some $78/ hr. with benefits, has been going broke for years.

My brother and his wife both work at GM and between them they rack in $150K a year working on an assembly line, NOT INCLUDING BENEFITS. That is more than most professionals with college degrees make. That is more than I make running my own business. Detroit isn't going to survive with or without a bail out.

I will refrain from telling you what I think of the UAW.

goldragon
12th December 2008, 21:44
24, i agree with you. 150k per year is little bit less than two engineers salary even in Rochester, NY. their engineers should earn much more than double salary of the engineers in our region. this is why these companies can not last too long.

silver_surfer
12th December 2008, 21:47
I was just thinking...what would happend if people in the unemployment line had to be drug tested every 3 months and if failed would not recieve a check...
I was thinking that could be something in the future that could save the taxpayers money..and people that really need it could get it while others would have to quit there drugs and get a job...Cause I might need it if it dont get better soon..Im just glad I got 16 days off after next week for xmas break!!!! They said when we get back things are goin be super slow and to expect changes or time off without pay here n there...Im actually in the warehouse so its different then production...I wonder what is upcoming with new President and Tax Returns..along with all these dealers bout to get taxed on all there cars on the lots...Should be giving away there cars in FEB-March.....if they can...

silver_surfer
12th December 2008, 21:56
oh ya..im not wanting anyone to think Im worried!!! bout my job....Cause I think they can all kiss my ass anyway...lol Gm and Ford and Chrysler can kiss it too...along with wall street ..UAW and pres Bush and Oprah and cashforgoldusa.com... oh ya and Santa Clause Kiss my ass too..

mick silver
12th December 2008, 22:08
I am learning to keep my pie hole shut , the more you say to people the more they think you are crazy , But when the time come they well be the first trying to get to your stuff , BuT it all so puts your stuff an family in danger talking to people now , IT TOO LATE FOR THEM NOW , learn to keep your pie hole shut , tell no one about your silver or gold or food

mick silver
12th December 2008, 22:10
Main, yours is an interesting and common argument.
I just wonder if you can explain why the foreign domestic automakers do very well while Detroit with its UAW pays it employees the highest labor rate in the world, some $78/ hr. with benefits, has been going broke for years.

My brother and his wife both work at GM and between them they rack in $150K a year working on an assembly line, NOT INCLUDING BENEFITS. That is more than most professionals with college degrees make. That is more than I make running my own business. Detroit isn't going to survive with or without a bail out.

I will refrain from telling you what I think of the UAW.

yes but they work

main1event
12th December 2008, 22:27
Main, yours is an interesting and common argument.
I just wonder if you can explain why the foreign domestic automakers do very well while Detroit with its UAW pays it employees the highest labor rate in the world, some $78/ hr. with benefits, has been going broke for years.

My brother and his wife both work at GM and between them they rack in $150K a year working on an assembly line, NOT INCLUDING BENEFITS. That is more than most professionals with college degrees make. \.

You know some police officers and firefighters make that much on details. Your example is 1 person making $75k a year, combined they make $150k. They probably work their a$$ off for that money working 60 hours a week. Who the hell cares what they make, is your job easy? Some people might think your job is easy and want your wages cut. There is always someone who thinks your job can be done for less money.

Why do Japanese car makers make more than Americans, because their countries subsidize them. Thats right you want to hear it. Who the hell brought Japan to where it is today to compete against us? You guessed it the good old USA. Do you really think capitalism really exists in other countries? Well it doesnt exist here anymore either.

You want to know why GM is bleeding so bad because they were in on the subprime game. Did you ever hear of Ditech? Yes, they were making bad loans, GM has a huge loan division.

Right now every manufacturer everywhere is bleeding red, whether its Honda and Toyota sales are off 30 to 40%, but we all want to blame the manufacturers.

So why is GM and Ford in the mess that they are in? While other countries were evolving their technologies and subsidizing their manufactuers, our manufacturers were turning out crap and it had everything to do with upper management. GM and Ford are conglomerates and they've stifled other companies from innovating in this country for years. The Big 3 and Big oil have been in bed together for years, they wanted us to consume as much oil and gas as possible. Whatever happened to the electric car?

I'll put the big three into the realm of conglomerates that own this country. They've lobbied, they've suppressed, they are the ones that have ruined this country. We all know the truth but we'd rather blame 56k wage earners. Lets all make minimum wage. When someone comes for your job, nobody will be there to help you out either because Americans are to busy blaming each other instead of pointing the blame where it belongs, on our companies and our politicians.

research24
12th December 2008, 22:42
I agree that there is more than enough blame to go around to tar and feather everybody. We could carry on this argument indefinitely, but I think we could agree there is no point in that since nothing will change and will all go in the dumpster anyway.

I did check on the Jap car issue once and found that they're not as subsidized as they once were since now at least half their parts come from N. America, so other than labor they really don't have much other advantage. Previously, all cars made in Japan had subsidized health care costs, and the same for parts made in Japan. HOWEVER, what parts aren't made in USA are made in China or Malaysia! Japan is suffering the same problem we are, now nearly as badly.

main1event
12th December 2008, 22:56
No they are not subsidized now as far as we know but what goes on behind close doors is something totally different. However, Kia is subsidized, and the Chinese are subsidizing their own car manufacturers. We'll be seeing those cars in the not to distant future. Japan probably doesnt need to be subsidized any longer because they've killed our manufacturing, they've won the war. Our politicians with our conglomerate corporations are in on the plot. They dont want a middle class, they want to own every piece of land, ever person in this land.
You cant tell me that they dont understand this simple truth, that we cant compete because we are free.

You know what money is, its war. When any country can print their own money at will, they can give it to whoever they want in payment to destroy. I cant believe this country is that naive, Japan, China print their own paper, give it to their corporations, use it to compete and destroy our own free manufacturers, and then we blame it on our workers. I dont know about you but somebody sold us down the river and its the greatest con game of them all. Whats funny is that we look at other countries and say how successful they are.

valerb
13th December 2008, 05:15
For all of you youngsters out there that have not been part of the work force for the past 50 years, you missed out on a lot of history and how we got where we are today. Even most of us old timers take one position or another, depending on what side of the work force we come from. We all tend to slant our views based on what our experiences are and unfortunately most of us never get to see what the grass looks like on the other side. Not that my working career was anything special, but it did include my first six years as a factory worker in the automotive industry, which back then was in constant turmoil between management and labor. We had to threaten to strike or actually strike just to get a 4 or 5 cent an hour raise. Then there were a couple dozen wildcat strikes over safety issues. People were constantly losing fingers and hands in unsafe machinery that made it worth fighting for. It’s those fights that lead to today’s safety rules that everyone takes for granted. Even though we had to fight for these changes, it was nothing compared to what a factory worker had to endure 50 years before my time. Believe it or not, unions have been good for everyone except the company owners. I know, how can I say such a stupid thing as that? It’s simple, everyone made very little money and the company owners made all the money. It was basically a two-tiered society, the rich and everyone else. When the labor unions forced their wages up, management had to increase the pay of the salaried staff as well. Everyone benefited from the union; it’s just that no one recognizes that fact. The bottom line is, if it were not for labor unions, we would still be living in a two-tiered society.


The UAW did not make the autoworkers the highest paid labor force in the country, that honor has been highly publicized for almost a 100 years and belongs to Henry Ford. He was the one who brought the assembly line and mass production that allowed his workers to be the most productive and highest paid in the world.

That bogus $78 an hour figure has recently been adjusted down to $50 an hour. Even that number is hard to justify. While the older employees do make in the $30 an hour range, it’s hard to justify another $20 an hour in benefits. Then you factor in all new employees are only making $15 an hour and that $50 an hour number becomes even harder to justify.

It’s not the UAW’s fault that engineers in this country are making less than $75K a year, that honor goes to The late Great Union Busting Ronald Reagan. He was not only great at the union busting game, but he also did a great job for all other business needs. Using the visa to allow our country to be over run by foreign professional employees who have been more than willing to come here and work for less. Doctors, engineers, accountants, programmers, you name it and they are here driving down the salaries of all professional employees. The labor force was much easier to fix, they didn’t need the visa for that, they just opened the floodgates to Central America and problem solved. Everyone’s income has been affected to some degree or another by this approach and we are setting back and blaming each other for our problems, when it has been big business and our corrupt government that has sponsored this.

If you do the math, you will see that an autoworker cannot make $75K a year without working a lot of overtime. While many of you may resent a production line worker making that much money even with all of the overtime, I can assure you that there are professionals making much more and never working any overtime at all. I’m not talking about managers, but simple everyday programmers, accountants and engineers. It all depends on whom you are working for and how valuable your services are to that company. It’s the same for production line workers and professional employees alike. Just like we have auto workers making $30 an hour while others working just as hard and only making $8 an hour, we have accountants making $30K a year while others are making $100K doing the same basic functions. It all boils down to hard work and being in the right place at the right time.

So here we are arguing amongst ourselves about what is fair and isn’t fair. If you own a business and are making less money that a factory worker, do a better job, be creative, be satisfied or find another line of work. All of us are in the same boat no matter what field we are in. Someone is always going to be making more money than you are not matter what you do. Get into management and work your way up to $200K a year and you’ll still find hourly workers making more money than you. They are far and few between, but there are jobs that do pay that much. Just like you specialize in management skills, they specialize in some area that is not competitive and receive a huge income for it. My son-in-law just came back from Iraq after two years working as a heavy equipment inspector for the military. The exact same thing he did in the Army until they forced him out on a disability he received in the first Iraq war. Instead of making something like $35K a year in the Army, he was making $140K a year as a civilian doing the same thing the Army said he wasn’t able to physically do. And if you didn’t follow that, not only was he making $140K a year in Iraq, but his VA disability check on top of that. Now that is truly what you call falling in **** and coming out smelling like a rose.
No matter how bad or how unfair you think things are, they can only get better or worse, nothing stays the same. The alternatives are socialism or communism and you can forget about any other forms of government for the foreseeable future. What Obama and the Democrats will do scares the hell out of me, but we all have to wait and see what those results are. We may all be pleasantly surprised; at least I’m hoping so. We live in a free market society, even if it is stacked against us, we all have choices. Right now there are not as many as in the past but they are still there and that’s the beauty of our society, choices. I for one am so glad we are not saying, God save the Queen or even worse something like Sieg Heil!!!

main1event
13th December 2008, 12:27
Valerb, its sad when only someone in the union recognizes the problems for what they are, the rest of the people have been brainwashed by the media. Your absolutely right about Ronald Regan and the rest of his cronies including the bush's.

Dont blame your fellow American worker, look no further than our corporations and lobbied, bought and paid for politicians. All of our jobs are being sent overseas in the name of globalism, but really what its all about is lowering our standard of living.

skijake
13th December 2008, 14:58
Thoughts by Jake Ski.
Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians.
Most people now adays aspire to become a Chief and the idea of coming up from the bottom and earning Chief status has been lost.
Lots of young Chiefs who have not earned any REAL experience and couldn't change a tire if their life depended on it. Old and young Indians lose respect.
How come these CEOs can continue to cash these huge paychecks when they are driving their companies into the ground and their workers are forced to go without?
Unions have their place, but the only unions with any strength left in California are State and County workers. State is broke but
Firefighters, Teachers, Police, Motor Vehicles, Health and Human Services, Prison Guards, Correctional, keep squeezing and expanding and building. They won't stop until the host has died.
There is no more money left except at the top. Cut the fat , not the muscle!
Do we have to hit bottom before there will be a consensus for CHANGE? Probably:(
As you were.

Trvlr45
14th December 2008, 00:23
The problem with the American automotive industry is the same with everything else American. We have Communists AND Fascists who have spent years trying to destroy it with lawsuits, unions and anything else they can think up so they can nationalize it. Just as they have done with housing. Now, after the senate did the right thing George is getting ready to bail out the union anyway.

Our government has spent years stacking the deck against American manufacturuers with environmental regulations, lawsuits and everything else they can come up with to "equalize" the global playing field.

Does anyone remember George Bush saying in a radio address that we have to LOWER the American standard of living so Mexico can raise theirs? How about his father and the "New World Order" speech. How about Clinton coming into office when we imported 40% of our oil and leaving office when we imported 60% of our oil. How about the lefties blocking exploration and drilling as well as refining of our own limitless supplies of oil and natural gas for the last 30 years?

Both parties have it in for the US and the day of reckoning is just about here. Get ready to see your meat bill go through the roof with the methane tax. Same for dairy and everything else. We have a fifth column in this country and it holds the majority in BOTH parties.

Trvlr45
14th December 2008, 00:34
Do we have to hit bottom before there will be a consensus for CHANGE?

Yep, and we are almost to that point. However, I think the dumbing down will prevent any real change and this country will be reduced to Banana Republic status while China and India grow to super-power status.

I'm thinking Panda's are a VERY good investment for the distant future. China will have everything and the Chinese will be looking for Panda's and paying a premium for them.

fansubs_ca
14th December 2008, 03:53
If we are going to ban anything, let's ban companies from sending manufacturing jobs overseas. Let's bring all those jobs back to the USA that involve telephone work.

As someone who does telephone work where part of it is U.S. based calls
I take offense to that. ;) (The call center I work in does surveys in
Canada, the U.S. and the U.K. because, well, all 3 countries speak the
same damn language!)

But seriously I do think it's a bit retarded sending work that involves talking
and listening to countries where English is not the local language. Some
companies are ignoring that value is determined by both function and cost
and they are only looking at cost while ignoring function.

Trade does go both ways, although technically I live outside the U.S. I'm
only 65 miles away, every vacation I've ever taken outside of Canada has
been in the U.S. spending money back into the U.S. economy and I do
buy U.S. made products (as difficult as they are to find these days. ^_-)
For example my can opener is made in the U.S. (Made by Swing-A-Way
Products, LLC of St. Louis, MO), my choice of breakfast cereal is Wheaties
again made in the U.S.A. (I have to bring that one back from the U.S.
myself since for some odd reason General Mills doesn't want to ship it up
to Canadian stores. ?_? )

I do tend to think of products made in Canada or the U.S. as interchangable
because the 2 countries have a great deal in common. I will perfer to buy
Canadian or U.S. products over Chinese made products for a simple reason,
a lot of what's made in China is crap! They seem to be good at making
shoes and computer parts but a lot of other things they make are such
junk. So despite the fact that Chinese made bicycles are crap I can't find
a North American made one anywhere because the factories that used to
make them here have been squeezed out. Hmmm? Maybe GM should
retool a car plant they are closing and start making bicycles there instead,
I'd be up for buying one of the first GM bicycles. ;) (Based on what I've
seen with bikes the prospect of Chinese made cars is just downright scary,
just as shoddy but 5 times as fast, watch for parts flying off... :-O )

Banning doesn't work, you'll kill the good trade with the bad. (Bad being
forced to talk to someone at a credit card company that can't understand
you or you can't understand them or junk products because the good ones
stopped being made.)

Richard
14th December 2008, 04:19
Oh man... I LOVE this forum! I've been trying to keep up with this topic but I've been busy elsewhere relentlessly bashing the environmentalists that say Americans aren't worthy to buy silver.

Anyway... wow! I like this forum because it's one of the few where different views truly come together and clash. Anywhere else, and the conformity of the group reigns... like watching a circle-jerk, really lol...

But my two cents... The UAW isn't killing anyone. The attempt of the Big Three to keep design closer to tradiation is an unrealized and unsung blessing. The "efficient" ones are not really efficient and have the LAW on their side, so their "competitiveness" isn't.

For more details, see my posts elsewhere in the forum, in the articles and other topic sections.

See yall later!

Mighty Moose
14th December 2008, 09:05
I gotta chime in on this one just once! There's one arguement that seems to have gotten missed relating to the UAW, or any union worker for that matter, & being overpaid. The trend with most unions is to permanently cap wages on newer members & reduce their starting salaries, so the Baby Boomers can keep protecting their higher standard of living. There's no true brotherhood, except for the brotherhood of greed- nobody ever gives a crap about the next guy below him! The spirit of greed is prevalent at all levels from the labourers right on up to the devils in the suits.

Why can't senior workers spread the wealth a bit? Is it fair for one worker to get paid less at every level for the rest of his entire life for the exact same kind of work? Kind of demoralizing, huh? Every human being knows inside that they would never volunteer to sacrifice part of their own potential future spoils. It's just human nature to be selfish.

I sometimes think the younger guys are getting forced into worse debt just trying to keep up with the older ones who bought their homes for much less back in the day & yet, make 3x as much.

Anyway, I think one of the legitimate reasons for the woes of U.S. auto companies, specifically GM, is that they have a loan division, which I believe got tied up in some of the subprime mortgages & other various financial ponzie schemes leaving their balance sheets not so balanced!

Trvlr45
14th December 2008, 11:32
Oh man... I LOVE this forum! I've been trying to keep up with this topic but I've been busy elsewhere relentlessly bashing the environmentalists that say Americans aren't worthy to buy silver.

Hi Richard.

Haven't heard from you very much until recemtly. Where is it the eco-terrorists are saying we shouldn't have silver? I would really like to see what the lunatics have to say on THAT subject.

Trvlr45
14th December 2008, 11:49
Anyway, I think one of the legitimate reasons for the woes of U.S. auto companies, specifically GM, is that they have a loan division, which I believe got tied up in some of the subprime mortgages & other various financial ponzie schemes leaving their balance sheets not so balanced!

Hi Moose,

You are the first one to bring this up and I think you are probably right. GM really should have stuck to building cars and trucks. However, I believe the unions are just as big of a problem.

I think one of the biggest reasons we are headed for a financial meltdown is all the benefits companies, unions, the states, counties, cities and the feds promise everyone. The pension plans that were offered for years to employees and are in danger right now.

All these promises based on the future that no one can predict are what is causing the problem. Look at medicaid and medicare, social security and everything else. All these programs are out of control because no one can predict the future. They made ridiculous promises they want US to keep and where these programs weren't just mis-managed they were intentionally raided like social security.

All these promises can only be kept by stealing from the people who are still working and haven't retired yet. We can expect the government to steal IRA's and 401K's down the road to cover for the mess THEY have made and at the same time the unions want us to pay for the mess THEY have made while 32 states are in line wanting us to pay for the mess THEY have made.

This is ridiculous. Everything needs to fail and let the cards fall where they may. Responsible people shouldn't have to pay for any of this.

Richard
14th December 2008, 11:49
Hi Richard. Haven't heard from you very much until recemtly. Where is it the eco-terrorists are saying we shouldn't have silver? I would really like to see what the lunatics have to say on THAT subject.

Hey dude! How's the road been treatin' ya?

Yeah, I been away in recent months but I'm back for now. Let's see... Right here I think...

http://forums.silverseek.com/showthread.php?t=3415

And in the topic, there's a link to his website. I also dug back some in the archives and about the web and it seems he has some kind of beef with Ted Butler. It's kind of hard to infer his message in his last article, but I knew I heard his name somewhere before. Eco-terrorist? Eh... slants that way, yes, but he does make some good points here and there. Also seems to favor communisms and collectivisms and such. Anyway, his article seems to indicate we're all just a bunch of theives for buying price-manipulated silver. I don't know that he's just a misinformed ranter or something more, but I used the article to get out my points on everything anyway.

It's just getting to that point where one can't hold back, you know?

Trvlr45
14th December 2008, 11:52
OK, here are my retorts to your ideas:

1. Abolish privileges ascribed to labor unions. The only power they hold is in collective bargaining and industrial action. When people strike fire them. They can easily be replaced with some of the world's other 6.5 billion people who would gladly produce cheaper cars.

2. Abolish all tariffs. Protectionism just creates market gluts and creates false scarcity.

3. Abolish intellectual property laws. They create false scarcity from what is otherwise an unlimited resource.

4. Abolish taxes and government. Taxation is not needed for a society to function. The only valid uses for government are to create and establish laws. This can be done and enforced through contracts at a local level.

5. Abolish all laws except those that are established to protect physical property and people's physical bodies. Enforcement of these laws can be paid for and implemented at a local level. Any other laws can be established via contract.

6. Abolish corporations. The assumption of limited liability creates uninformed levels of risk in a society. Corporations serve no purpose that couldn't be established through unlimited liability based partnerships or joint ventures where responsibility for business decisions involves venturers risking real assets and forces absolute responsibility.

OK. That's my platform and I'm totally serious. Any form of society besides a libertarian one is flawed both philosophically and in practice and when I say libertarian I mean that described above - no compromise, no grey area.

The world is a set of overlapping anarchist factions - nothing more. These factions appear in the form of government, corporations, religions and communities/families. There is no consistent base for them to exist so they are constantly struggling with each other. This will never end until anarchy evolves into liberty - a mutual acceptance of the rights of holders of real property.

How does this affect the current situation? Well that depends on what outcome we desire. Unless we strive towards libertarianism every other outcome will be fleeting and hence even if achieved it will not last.

For example, the American auto industry is defunct. It produces relatively low quality products with high input costs in a high taxation environment and markets them to a customer base that doesn't need them. It cannot be saved in the sense that it is not *industry*. It is just a cost center on the economy. Industry creates and meets demand efficiently. That does not describe the American auto industry.

There are SO many problems that are surfacing in the world at present because the vast majority of people would disagree with some or all of my assertions and fight to prove them untrue.

At the end of each wave of inefficiency coming to light, intelligent people realize that they need to hold physical property and they need to survive. That is why I invest in gold and silver. It is an asset that carries us through each cycle before the new cycle begins.

That's my 2 cents. If you want to consider the solution to the auto industry's problems you can infer it from my principles. :)

Sound pretty good to me!

valerb
14th December 2008, 17:34
As someone who does telephone work where part of it is U.S. based calls
I take offense to that. ;) (The call center I work in does surveys in
Canada, the U.S. and the U.K. because, well, all 3 countries speak the
same damn language!)

So despite the fact that Chinese made bicycles are crap I can't find
a North American made one anywhere because the factories that used to
make them here have been squeezed out. Hmmm? Maybe GM should
retool a car plant they are closing and start making bicycles there instead,
I'd be up for buying one of the first GM bicycles. ;)
Banning doesn't work, you'll kill the good trade with the bad. (Bad being
forced to talk to someone at a credit card company that can't understand
you or you can't understand them or junk products because the good ones
stopped being made.)

I don't mind sharing jobs with Canadians, after all are you not our 51st and largest state?

Converting an automotive plant into a Bicycle plant, now that would be doing a 180. In the 1800's, there were hundreds of bicycle manufactures in the US and a very large number of them went to the next level and started producing cars. Obviously, all of them failed eventually, but there were a very large number of different cars in the beginning and motor cycles as well. Even as late as the 50's, I remember numerous different automotive companies. Jeep manufactured in Toledo Ohio at the Willys Overland car company. The Willys has not been around for decades, but the Jeep has survived. I'll bet there were at least 15 different car companies in the 50's that are not around today.

Just for the record, I'm not against foreign trade, just against sending our manufacturing jobs to foreign countries and that includes the telephone answering system as well. Lets keep everything here in our own 51 states.

valerb
14th December 2008, 21:11
The trend with most unions is to permanently cap wages on newer members & reduce their starting salaries, so the Baby Boomers can keep protecting their higher standard of living. There's no true brotherhood, except for the brotherhood of greed- nobody ever gives a crap about the next guy below him!

So it is the Baby Boomers that are screwing everyone. The vast majority of our labor force must be between the age of 44 and 62 and calling the shots for everyone. What happened to the rest of society born after 1964? Do they not have a vote on labor contracts? Did you know that labor leaders have to run for office and every employee has an equal vote, no matter what their age is. I would be very surprised if the baby boomers at the big three are not in the minority. They have eliminated hundreds of thousands of jobs over the years and all of them in the past few years has been through buyouts of the baby boomers.

Have you ever noticed the assembly worker at an automotive plant in a news clip, he is hanging on to a hoist of some type guiding a section of the car in place. In reality, there are very few auto workers at the big three as compared to a couple of decades ago. In the past you would have in the neighborhood of 500 workers on a single assembly line, while today it might only be 20 to 25. The big three didn't automate their way out of labor expense, they farmed it out to outside companies that pay much less. So instead of having 500 employees climbing all over each other as in decades long past, everything is pre-assembled at outside sources. It probably still takes the equivalent of several hundred employees to make a car, but the vast majority are not working for the Big three. So when GM says their labor force is costing them $50 an hour, the new revised figure, they are only referring to the 20 - 25 employees remaining on the assembly line. They forget to mention how much per hour the vast majority of the labor force at outside companies are costing them. I don't mean to suggest that it only takes 20 - 25 employees to run an assembly plant, but I was just pointing out what has happened to their work force as an example on the assembly line.

What I would like to know, is why so many people would like to see the Big three auto workers pay cut in half to solve their problem? Has anyone proposed that "all" employees and management at the Big 3 take a 50% pay cut? Of course not, they would find employment elsewhere as soon as possible and they would be hard pressed to find replacements for those kinds of wages.

I can't speak about what other unions are doing, but the auto workers have a two tiered pay system that is in effect until the next contract negotiations in 2011, assuming they are still in business. What most people don't realize is that the union agreed to pay for the buyout of thousands of employees so the automotive industry wouldn't have to pay them the required 95% during extended layoffs. It's my understanding that even though the two tiered system exists, GM has been the only one to hire any people under that system and the number is only a few thousand. You can't hire new people while you are continually downsizing. This two tiered pay system isn't anything new, with the exception of the huge disparity in pay at the Big three. Today, most of the employees make the same basic pay, while in the past there were dozens of different pay classifications in a factory. Most employees were on some form of incentive program and the older employees took the higher paying jobs. So while they didn't have a distinct two tiered system in the past, there were always higher paying jobs for the more senior employees. You can bet that if the automotive industry survives this current financial meltdown, the two tiered system will eventually go away. It's not the UAW that has caused this current crisis, it's the financial industry that has screwed everyone. The Big three were expecting to produce and sell X number of millions of cars this year and that just isn't going to happen.

main1event
14th December 2008, 21:48
Valerb,

Yep, its always someones fault. In Germany it was the Jews fault, In Rome it was the Christians fault. Throughout history in challenging times we always point the finger at each other. In the end we realize its the corrupt government and topple it but hey everyone likes to take the easy way out.

Folks why is it so hard to believe that the same people that have been surpressing gold and silver have screwed the american people. They own the media they blame unions, state workers and every god damn hard working individual in this country. Meanwhile they move operations overseas all the while telling us we cant compete with other countries but in return they send the products back here for us to buy at inflated prices, WTF.

They'll create some news story of some lazy worker who makes a bundle while sitting at home cooking hot dogs. You can always find the bad in every industry from sports to politics, there are always people taking advantage of the system. So its always easy to come up with a scape goat and for the masses to jump on the bandwagon and demand justice. If one person gets killed by a gun, its a trajedy we should ban all guns. What they dont tell you is that more people die of aspirin.

For godsakes does anyone forget what russian and china are? There are no human rights in those countries, no freedoms, no liberties. Our fathers and grandfathers fought to have better working conditions in fact many died for those rights. When the hoover damn was built people fell to their deaths and the rest of the workforce was ordered to work around them. That is what big business, wants of us. We need checks and balances and right now there are none. The american people are being crushed by outsourcing. The reason why engineers are paid so little is their job can be easily outsourced to other countries. Modern day telecommunications allow for engineers to design, and calculate from anywhere in the world.

As I've often said, its nice to point fingers but when someone finally comes for your overpaid job, you wont be the one pointing fingers any longer but nobody but nobody will be around to save you.

Trvlr45
15th December 2008, 00:24
Hey dude! How's the road been treatin' ya?

Yeah, I been away in recent months but I'm back for now. Let's see... Right here I think...

http://forums.silverseek.com/showthread.php?t=3415

And in the topic, there's a link to his website. I also dug back some in the archives and about the web and it seems he has some kind of beef with Ted Butler. It's kind of hard to infer his message in his last article, but I knew I heard his name somewhere before. Eco-terrorist? Eh... slants that way, yes, but he does make some good points here and there. Also seems to favor communisms and collectivisms and such. Anyway, his article seems to indicate we're all just a bunch of theives for buying price-manipulated silver. I don't know that he's just a misinformed ranter or something more, but I used the article to get out my points on everything anyway.

It's just getting to that point where one can't hold back, you know?

Hey Richard,

The road is the same but the hours are longer for the same pay thanks to sociopaths like Nazi Pelosi and her green weenie comrades. Environmentalism is terrorism in it's purest form. It forces us to change our lifestyles based on the biggest lie ever perpetrated on the people of this planet.

It is obviously going to be used to erase the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, force us to eat what they want us to eat, travel only when they want us to and tax us all into poverty under control of a Fourth Riech.

I read Singer's article. He is obviously a communist and with his love for Cuba he forgot to mention they have jail cells down there with spikes in the floors and the walls. I guess they put the people who actually have the audacity to DRIVE to work like Fidel and his brother in those so they can cut down on the energy consumption.

If Hitler would have thought up environmentalism he could have taken over the whole globe without a shot fired but back then, the people around the world were just a LITTLE bit smarter than they are now.

Forty years of teaching communismm and a hatred for America in the "education", excuse me, the "indoctrination system" does have that effect. That is one of the reasons we now have Obama. Younger voters, who have been completely brainwashed with this crap came out in droves to vote for the Messiah.

Me, I'm getting ready to bail out of the country for a while. I don't intend on sleeping in the bed these ignoramouses have made for us. Did you know the Nazi's are now going to start taxing ranchers on cow farts? They claim ranching is bad for the environment. THAT is how far this lunacy has come. England (a dictatorship about 20 years ahead of us) is discussing ILLEGALIZING roast beef and dairy products.

The global dictators are now going to take complete control of the food supply under the guise of "saving the planet".

fansubs_ca
15th December 2008, 02:29
I don't mind sharing jobs with Canadians, after all are you not our 51st and largest state?

Heh, heh, just I tend to not like "nationalism" as I can remember all the
idiots up here who were so scarred of "those Americans" with their low
wages, unsafe food (apparently Canadian chicken farmers would have
you believe that something was wrong with American chickens, you can
see a bit of bias there ^_-) and how they'ld drag down the great white
north. Seriously some of the opponents of free trade were depicting the
U.S. as a 3rd world country. Can't say I've heard any of that for a long
time now. I guess that does give me a different perspective on things.

I do tend to think of things in layers:

-English speaking vs. non-English speaking:
If I really had to pack up and move somewhere in the furture I'd be able
to manage in a country where the language was the same whether that
would be the U.S., the U.K., Australia or New Zeland so there is a tendancy
for me to favour the "Anglo block" as all 5 countries are a place I _could_
live. If I ever had to live in China or even Mexico I'd be totally lost due
to the obstacle of language.
-Alied countries vs non-alied countries:
There are many countries that are allied to the anglo block and are just
as developed as us but just don't happen to speak English. These are
next on my priority list.
-China vs. everyone else:
Literally China has become so predominant everywhere in everything and
so much of what they turn out is junk (exceptions do apply though ^_-)
that I tend to favour industry outside of China just to keep choice where
we still have it. See my example of bikes, I'm not so sure about the U.S.
but Canadian made bikes were easy to find at least into the mid 1990s
so it's not that long ago that changed. After having several Chinese made
bike pumps fail after a few months I remember doing a search for Canadian
or U.S. made bike pumps, no luck. In fact the only one I could find not
made in China was made in Tiawan, and yes it did hold up better.

No where does specific nations borders enter the picture for me.


Converting an automotive plant
into a Bicycle plant, now that would be doing a 180.

That's my own personal bias there, even in the late 80s/early 90s I
thought the price of gas was too high and the same for insurance on
cars. So I never really made the move to a vehicle of my own, couldn't
justify it for the 2 or 3 times a year I'd have a _real_ occasion to use
one. I did eventually get my license just in case, but that case has
not arisen.

In all honesty I think even a major spike in gas prices won't shift the
majority to bikes. When we get over the hump of 50% of the voting
age population not being able to afford gas, horses will start making
a major come back because there will then be political pressure to
make it easier to get your "horse permit". Most people are too damn
lazy to bike! ^_-



Just for the record, I'm not against foreign trade, just against sending our manufacturing jobs to foreign countries and that includes the telephone answering system as well. Lets keep everything here in our own 51 states.

You can see where that can become a slippery slope in that direction too
though. ^_- As I said the call center I work in also calls the U.K. so you
wanna exclude them? We get back bussinness from there too and I don't
really think England poses any "threat" to those of us in North America.
Kinda like the non-existant "threat" some people thought the U.S. posed
to Canada. ^_-

valerb
15th December 2008, 04:45
You can see where that can become a slippery slope in that direction too
though. ^_- As I said the call center I work in also calls the U.K. so you
wanna exclude them? We get back bussinness from there too and I don't
really think England poses any "threat" to those of us in North America.
Kinda like the non-existant "threat" some people thought the U.S. posed
to Canada. ^_-

I'm for free and fair trade, I'm only against shipping our jobs overseas. If your company wants you to call China, that's fine, I just don't want them to ship your job there.