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crashjp
9th February 2011, 21:59
Ted Butler says that the stockpiles of silver are down 90% from 1940, that's a lot no matter how you look at it, which to me begs the question, what if we got this gold ratio thing backwards? I'm not kidding look at all the things silver can do and be used for, now ask yourself what can gold be used for? Is the supply of gold getting smaller? Is it really such a leap to believe that silver should be of greater value than gold? If not then id like to ask for what reasons it shouldn't be?

krispy
9th February 2011, 22:13
i dunno - gold can be used for many of the things silver can be used for, but its just too expensive i thought. like, it never tarnishes, so thats good for electrical connections, where as silver does tarnish, making connections weaker over time.

plus the aliens need it for their atmosphere! thats why we like it, we were trained to mine it for them! :D

j/k, i dont know what the truth is

Zeus
9th February 2011, 22:29
correction......

We were CREATED to mine it for them :)

isaiah58
9th February 2011, 22:40
Gold is much harder to mine, correct? Costs a lot more to mine, like $400 actual costs per ounce. Silver is easy to mine, costs less than 1% of what gold costs to mine. Gold is also a by product of other mining operations, correct?

Add to that the fact there are many gold mines that are flooded, so available if industrial applications required the supply to be replenished.

danthehomosapien
9th February 2011, 22:41
So how many onces of gold do I need to get me abord the mother ship and off this doomed spining ball?
And how many onces dose a guy need to get himself a freaky green, 3 titied alien chick for the ride?
Maby your right, crashjp, I wont complain about the gold to silver ratio reversing, I certainly think will see the ratio move toward the historical norm.

SilverFreak
9th February 2011, 22:42
Ted Butler says that the stockpiles of silver are down 90% from 1940, that's a lot no matter how you look at it, which to me begs the question, what if we got this gold ratio thing backwards? I'm not kidding look at all the things silver can do and be used for, now ask yourself what can gold be used for? Is the supply of gold getting smaller? Is it really such a leap to believe that silver should be of greater value than gold? If not then id like to ask for what reasons it shouldn't be?

I think the very reason that it has so many uses is the reason it's cheep. It has been held down in price. Society has been told by the world that silver is just another metal and gold is king and so it must be true.

SF

crashjp
9th February 2011, 23:36
Gold is much harder to mine, correct? Costs a lot more to mine, like $400 actual costs per ounce. Silver is easy to mine, costs less than 1% of what gold costs to mine. Gold is also a by product of other mining operations, correct?

Add to that the fact there are many gold mines that are flooded, so available if industrial applications required the supply to be replenished.

If silver is abundant and cheaply mined then the question becomes WHERE IS IT? If we have used up 90% of our stockpile why hasn't. It been replaced? To me there seems to be a break down in logic as to how we have viewed the gold/silver raito.

weave80
9th February 2011, 23:56
i dunno - gold can be used for many of the things silver can be used for, but its just too expensive i thought. like, it never tarnishes, so thats good for electrical connections, where as silver does tarnish, making connections weaker over time.

plus the aliens need it for their atmosphere! thats why we like it, we were trained to mine it for them! :D

j/k, i dont know what the truth is


Now, I could be wrong on this but, I just learned in a one of my electrical classes the other day that when silver oxidizes, it actually becomes a better conductor of electricity.

isaiah58
10th February 2011, 01:38
If silver is abundant and cheaply mined then the question becomes WHERE IS IT? If we have used up 90% of our stockpile why hasn't. It been replaced? To me there seems to be a break down in logic as to how we have viewed the gold/silver raito.

What is "our stockpile" and how is to maintained? Looks to me like there are no initiatives towards keeping any silver reserves. We have Petroleum reserves, we used some of them not too long ago. Looks like as far as silver goes, there is nothing i place to keep the reserves in tact, the government is using it up as part of the legislation directing the US Mint to produce coins. I would think that all someone has to do is change the law and the stock pile can be maintained if not increased.

This sites front page is full of news releases about new finds. We are discussing here buying stock in mining companies that have extensive un-mined land holdings that are being explored.

I would not have started to invest in silver if I did not believe that it is vastly undervalued. I also believe that between industrial uses and production the supply is going to barely stay up with demand.

Based on what I am reading, if mining can not increase supply, then we have about 4 years left of stock piles to support minting and other production. industry would control the supply at that point as they will pay the most up front to the mines to assure thier supply remains.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 02:15
Isaiah58 I think you just hit the nail on the head, we have been slothful at maintianing our reserves and from what I can tell getting good solid numbers is impossiable, but let me throw this out there, what if all the cheap easeily gotten silver has indeed been mined and to get to new large amounts the cost will be greatly higher than it is now and thus mineing copper will no longer be able to meet demand? I don't know for a fact this is true but I'm wondering.

valerb
10th February 2011, 03:35
Now, I could be wrong on this but, I just learned in a one of my electrical classes the other day that when silver oxidizes, it actually becomes a better conductor of electricity.

I worked for a major competitor of IBM and I can tell you that "all" circuit cards had gold contacts. Just look at the plug in memory in your PC and you'll find gold contacts. Look at the pins on your CPU. Many years ago, you could find memory that used silver contacts, but that was a long time ago and cheap memory.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 05:09
One article I read stated that there are 31000 tons of silver above ground and that there are 120000 tons of gold above ground, no idea if the numbers are correct but let's say they are, wouldn't that mean at the least it should take 4/oz gold to buy 1/oz of silver, even if we do have more silver in the ground how long would it take to get another 89000 tons above ground just to make a 1 to 1 ratio ? Just thinking outloud is all.

silverheartbone
10th February 2011, 07:27
Now, I could be wrong on this but, I just learned in a one of my electrical classes the other day that when silver oxidizes, it actually becomes a better conductor of electricity.
Intuition makes me seriously doubt that.
From all that I've ever known, silver, not silver oxide, is the best conductor.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 07:50
One article I read stated that there are 31000 tons of silver above ground and that there are 120000 tons of gold above ground, no idea if the numbers are correct but let's say they are, wouldn't that mean at the least it should take 4/oz gold to buy 1/oz of silver, even if we do have more silver in the ground how long would it take to get another 89000 tons above ground just to make a 1 to 1 ratio ? Just thinking outloud is all.

How many pounds of potatoes are below ground vs how much bananas are above ground?

Apples and oranges.

dentalstud
10th February 2011, 08:53
It's a valid question, Matt. Can you honestly give a reason why gold should be worth many multiples more than silver, if in fact silver is in shorter supply and has many times more uses? The only reason is "because it's always been that way", which is based solely on human perception and tradition and takes no market fundamentals into account. Perhaps silver was much more plentiful in years gone by, justifying its lower value. But it would seem that much of the silver supply has been exhausted, while gold just sits collecting dust. This all happened while the G/S ratio went from 1:15 to upwards of 1:80! A return to the old ratio is an extremely conservative guess, meaning silver would need to be three times its current value if gold merely treads water.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 09:14
It's a valid question, Matt. Can you honestly give a reason why gold should be worth many multiples more than silver, if in fact silver is in shorter supply and has many times more uses? The only reason is "because it's always been that way", which is based solely on human perception and tradition and takes no market fundamentals into account. Perhaps silver was much more plentiful in years gone by, justifying its lower value. But it would seem that much of the silver supply has been exhausted, while gold just sits collecting dust. This all happened while the G/S ratio went from 1:15 to upwards of 1:80! A return to the old ratio is an extremely conservative guess, meaning silver would need to be three times its current value if gold merely treads water.

Don't get me started on Gold vs Silver, it would end with the people at GoldSeek sending a deathsquad after me.

maplesilverbug
10th February 2011, 09:51
...a reason why gold should be worth many multiples more than silver...The only reason is "because it's always been that way", which is based solely on human perception and tradition and takes no market fundamentals into account.

Bingo.

But that can be said about a myriad of conditions and situations on this planet.

Take "Christmas Time" in North America, for instance.
People do not question, they just go out and spend.

"Human perception and tradition" screw up a LOT of things!
Good luck trying to right that wrong! Best just to play the game and make the most of it. :)

Craig
10th February 2011, 10:36
But it would seem that much of the silver supply has been exhausted…
Since we don't shoot a significant amount of silver into outer space, I believe virtually all the silver that this planet started with is still here somewhere, its just not easy to get to as it's been 'used' in various ways.

The trick is reclaiming it.

Right now with silver as cheap as it is there isn't enough money in reclamation to act as an incentive to develop the technologies necessary to pull the small bits of silver spread out through landfills & etc… When silver finally attains a dollar value commensurate with it's true usefulness, then you'll see more interest in reclaiming silver from electronics, solar panels & etc…

isaiah58
10th February 2011, 10:53
It's a valid question, Matt. Can you honestly give a reason why gold should be worth many multiples more than silver, if in fact silver is in shorter supply and has many times more uses? The only reason is "because it's always been that way", which is based solely on human perception and tradition and takes no market fundamentals into account. Perhaps silver was much more plentiful in years gone by, justifying its lower value. But it would seem that much of the silver supply has been exhausted, while gold just sits collecting dust. This all happened while the G/S ratio went from 1:15 to upwards of 1:80! A return to the old ratio is an extremely conservative guess, meaning silver would need to be three times its current value if gold merely treads water.


Apparently our ancestors found it easier to mine silver than gold, more dangerous apparently to mine gold as well. I doubt some PR guys created the value difference back then.


Isn't silver a by-product of many applications, including gold mining? It can be leeched from lead, it is there mixed in with many other metal finds.


By the way, it is a well known fact by audiophiles that gold is a better conductor. As pointed out above, it is used in electronics when reliability counts. Part of making electronic devices more affordable is using silver instead of gold. Gold is still used as a conductor, but only on top end electronics. The Space Shuttle uses it, it is used in military equipment, in aircraft, in scientific equipment. Gold has priced itself out of being used in common electronics, otherwise it still would be like it was when PC's and cel phones first became mainstream.


With silver selling at 6x it cost to produce it looks like more and more start ups are taking place which means soon supply will be able to meet demand and hopefully allow reserves to be built up as banks and governments deem that a smart move. Looks like China will buy all we can sell them.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 11:13
How many pounds of potatoes are below ground vs how much bananas are above ground?

Apples and oranges.

I don't understand matt, how is compairing above ground gold and silver apples and oranges? Please explian.

krispy
10th February 2011, 11:14
I worked for a major competitor of IBM and I can tell you that "all" circuit cards had gold contacts. Just look at the plug in memory in your PC and you'll find gold contacts. Look at the pins on your CPU. Many years ago, you could find memory that used silver contacts, but that was a long time ago and cheap memory.

Maybe oxidized silver conducts better, but does not contact better.

silverheartbone
10th February 2011, 11:33
Since we don't shoot a significant amount of silver into outer space, I believe virtually all the silver that this planet started with is still here somewhere, its just not easy to get to as it's been 'used' in various ways.

The trick is reclaiming it.
The colloidal silver that I piss away daily will never be reclaimed.

I'm still trying to figure out how to tell an aluminum mirror from a silver one.
As far as I know the incidence angle data is too difficult to obtain. (http://www.psfc.mit.edu/~sscott/Presentations/MSE%20metal%20mirrors%2010Feb.ppt)

This discussion contains some interesting information,
Silver Coated Mirrors vs Aluminum Coated Mirrors (http://www.finishing.com/203/98.shtml)
but not a test.


Isn't silver a by-product of many other activities, including gold mining? It can be leeched from lead tailings, it is there mixed in with many other metal finds.

By the way, it is a well known fact by audiophiles that gold is a better conductor.
Better than silver?
If that is well known by audiophiles,
then they are victims of cable manufacturer's marketing claims.
The advantage of gold connectors is that it is a less reactive metal,
NOT a better conductor.


I don't understand matt, how is compairing above ground gold and silver apples and oranges? Please explian.

I think he should have typed "Potatoes and bananas."
which would have been a better allusion for the above and below ground concepts being discussed.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 11:48
I don't understand matt, how is compairing above ground gold and silver apples and oranges? Please explian.

Gold is non-reactive and used primarily for making wedding rings and filling teeth. The primary reason it is priced as it is is because people "believe" it should be priced here. A definition of fiat by the people. Silver is a catalytic and consumable metal and has commodity value as well as the investment value.

I see the posse from GoldSeek coming over the hill as we speak.

Matthew Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

duneyman jr
10th February 2011, 12:22
QUOTE=crashjp;156740]Ted Butler says that the stockpiles of silver are down 90% from 1940, that's a lot no matter how you look at it, which to me begs the question, what if we got this gold ratio thing backwards? I'm not kidding look at all the things silver can do and be used for, now ask yourself what can gold be used for? Is the supply of gold getting smaller? Is it really such a leap to believe that silver should be of greater value than gold? If not then id like to ask for what reasons it shouldn't be?[/QUOTE]
Gold is in a controlled enviremont as silver can be obtained by an average person. Look at how many oz of silver are on ebay compared to gold. In order for silver to become like gold it will have to be out of the hands of an ordinary person...maybe as gold is in maybe rings and stuff...there has to be some kinda controll for silver to become like gold...do you really think the goverment would allow you too own that much power and control if your stash was that valuable...and mccane or obama wasn't sitting on a silvermine...

Craig
10th February 2011, 13:07
Look at how many oz of silver are on ebay compared to gold.
I don't know that your example has any relevance. Silver is a LOT cheaper than gold so there is more interest in it on eBay. Most of your average eBayers don't have a couple of grand of extra money around to throw into gold but they can purchase the random coin or tube of eagles without breaking their budgets.

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 13:14
How is Butler defining "stockpiles"? The government stockpiles are all but gone. But how about all the hoarder stockpiles out there? Mine included. Then too mining is still taking A LOT OF silver as a base metal by product out of the ground for $12-$15 or less. Compare that to gold which is more like $500-$800 or more. Don't get me wrong, silver is and will continue to fall in supply vs. demand. Especially if investor demand continues to grow. But to compare it to gold as far as rarity goes is really stretching it.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 13:28
How is Butler defining "stockpiles"? The government stockpiles are all but gone. But how about all the hoarder stockpiles out there? Mine included. Then too mining is still taking A LOT OF silver as a base metal by product out of the ground for $12-$15 or less. Compare that to gold which is more like $500-$800 or more. Don't get me wrong, silver is and will continue to fall in supply vs. demand. Especially if investor demand continues to grow. But to compare it to gold as far as rarity goes is really stretching it.

How does he define anything? Vivid imagination of course.

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 13:33
How does he define anything? Vivid imagination of course.

I guess. The amazing thing is that I still buy and hold silver despite Ted Butler and his imagination.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 13:43
I guess. The amazing thing is that I still buy and hold silver despite Ted Butler and his imagination.

I love the Silver market! I hate the guys who make up stories about it.

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 13:45
I love the Silver market! I hate the guys who make up stories about it.

I'm learning not to hold silver responsible for them.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 14:33
I'm learning not to hold silver responsible for them.

Ok let me approach this a little different, nobody seems to disagree that there is more gold above ground than silver, which at the same time is being used up faster than it is being replaced with new mineing at what point does the laws of supply and demand kick in and tell us that until new silver supplies are on the market, silver is indeed a greater value than gold? I'm not saying that will happen but it seems that supply and demand can only be held down for a time then at some point ture market value must be found, just seems a case of logic to me.

duneyman jr
10th February 2011, 14:45
Ebay and silver if anyone is collecting pms wouldn't everyone have more silver then gold if wanted. Gold is locked up by the elite in bulkcompared to silver its in a controlled envirement or there would be more gold on ebay then silver. Gold is power...straight out of the elites ass.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 14:49
Ok let me approach this a little different, nobody seems to disagree that there is more gold above ground than silver, which at the same time is being used up faster than it is being replaced with new mineing at what point does the laws of supply and demand kick in and tell us that until new silver supplies are on the market, silver is indeed a greater value than gold? I'm not saying that will happen but it seems that supply and demand can only be held down for a time then at some point ture market value must be found, just seems a case of logic to me.

Logic in Silver and Gold trading? Surely you must be joking!

This has been an issue and an argument for a long time, and there is no telling when it might start to get resolved. The tulip bulb market collapsed in the month of February 1637. before that everyone was telling each other "Tulips are money!"

Can I take that car off your hands? I have a whole fistful of cowrie shells.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 14:59
But matt you don't believe that silver is compairable to silver anymore than I do. Though wittity it may be, it just seems that at some point the market will have to react to the facts, anyway I'm just thinking outloud.

silverheartbone
10th February 2011, 15:06
Logic in Silver and Gold trading? Surely you must be joking!

This has been an issue and an argument for a long time, and there is no telling when it might start to get resolved. The tulip bulb market collapsed in the month of February 1637. before that everyone was telling each other "Tulips are money!"
Matt, it may be hard for you to believe, but in November 1536 tulip bulbs were indeed money for some people.

In the future it will be seen that paper notes backed by debt being considered money by some people was just as stupid.

Actually considering we have 475 additional years of experience and historical knowledge,
this current culture is even stupider.

Matthew Shelley
10th February 2011, 15:09
But matt you don't believe that silver is compairable to silver anymore than I do. Though wittity it may be, it just seems that at some point the market will have to react to the facts, anyway I'm just thinking outloud.

That's why I get chased off some gold boards. The people who trade Gold can get quite quite emotional. Which makes sense, because the main thing driving the price of Gold is emotion. Economically, the only four things that make it more valuable than Lead are 1. It's not toxic. 2. It makes a good electrical conductor. 3. There's less of it. And 4. It's prettier.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 15:34
Lol I wouldn't have gone that far but the point is well taken.

duneyman jr
10th February 2011, 16:30
Be like star trek

crashjp
10th February 2011, 18:24
Live long and prosper!

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 19:04
Ok let me approach this a little different, nobody seems to disagree that there is more gold above ground than silver, which at the same time is being used up faster than it is being replaced with new mineing at what point does the laws of supply and demand kick in and tell us that until new silver supplies are on the market, silver is indeed a greater value than gold? I'm not saying that will happen but it seems that supply and demand can only be held down for a time then at some point ture market value must be found, just seems a case of logic to me.

All the silver ever mined would make a solid cube the height and width of the Statue of Liberty. Now that is a lot. It would be hard to just cut up a cube that big and bury it in the dumps of the world much less process it into product and then bury 90% of it. Even over the past 40 years. Then too, in this capitalistic society if we were running that short of silver why wouldn't JPM be going long instead of short on silver? So why should we believe that there is more gold above ground than silver? What is the purpose of running out when it could be avoided? Why isn't there a huge cry to recycle silver like they did for copper back in WWII? Obama could put people to work pulling silver out of old electronics. Why don't they put a deposit tax on electronics and you can't get a refund until the silver is recycled?

crashjp
10th February 2011, 19:22
All the silver ever mined would make a solid cube the height and width of the Statue of Liberty. Now that is a lot. It would be hard to just cut up a cube that big and bury it in the dumps of the world much less process it into product and then bury 90% of it. Even over the past 40 years. Then too, in this capitalistic society if we were running that short of silver why wouldn't JPM be going long instead of short on silver? So why should we believe that there is more gold above ground than silver? What is the purpose of running out when it could be avoided? Why isn't there a huge cry to recycle silver like they did for copper back in WWII? Obama could put people to work pulling silver out of old electronics. Why don't they put a deposit tax on electronics and you can't get a refund until the silver is recycled?
Good to have you back roger, I was affraid we were going to get to have a discussion without all the mumbo jumbo, the awnser is I DON'T KNOW, but I'm sure they can tell ya at ***.

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 19:24
Good to have you back roger, I was affraid we were going to get to have a discussion without all the mumbo jumbo, the awnser is I DON'T KNOW, but I'm sure they can tell ya at ***.

Now you lost my respect for you. Come back and debate me when your emotions are in check. But then, that may be your problem with all of this. :rolleyes:

crashjp
10th February 2011, 20:02
I don't mind the debate from time to time, heck it can be fun, but sometimes I just want to exchange ideas and seeek out new ideas without it turning into a permabear permabull debate, and this was a topic I'm really trying to wrap my mind around.

crashjp
10th February 2011, 20:04
You say its about balance, I'M NOT A PERMABULL!

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 20:51
I don't mind the debate from time to time, heck it can be fun, but sometimes I just want to exchange ideas and seeek out new ideas without it turning into a permabear permabull debate, and this was a topic I'm really trying to wrap my mind around.

Well that is fine, but don't start with a faulty premise that all of us are going to agree with you on certain points. Making a statement that there is more gold above ground than silver is at the very least controversial....

What is Truth?
10th February 2011, 20:52
You say its about balance, I'M NOT A PERMABULL!

Then you should be open to all views about the silver market. So what's the problem?

crashjp
10th February 2011, 23:17
Then you should be open to all views about the silver market. So what's the problem?

True enough I guess, but there are times when I wish some of those investing in citi bank,bank of america and jp morgan had a bit of your balance, lol I sholdnt have snaped like that.

crashjp
11th February 2011, 00:54
All the silver ever mined would make a solid cube the height and width of the Statue of Liberty. Now that is a lot. It would be hard to just cut up a cube that big and bury it in the dumps of the world much less process it into product and then bury 90% of it. Even over the past 40 years. Then too, in this capitalistic society if we were running that short of silver why wouldn't JPM be going long instead of short on silver? So why should we believe that there is more gold above ground than silver? What is the purpose of running out when it could be avoided? Why isn't there a huge cry to recycle silver like they did for copper back in WWII? Obama could put people to work pulling silver out of old electronics. Why don't they put a deposit tax on electronics and you can't get a refund until the silver is recycled?

From most sources it is estimated that there is 1 billion oz of silver above ground or as I sais 31000 tons there are almost 7 billon people on planet earth so that would mean that there is only enough silver above ground to allow 1 in 7 people to own 1 oz of silver so when you look at that statue of liberty made of pure silver all of a sudden it ain't that big is it? Now for landfills, there is 1 oz of silver in 110 cellphones, if we were to try to reclaim this silver it would take heavy equipment to dig the trash up and then it would take human labor to sort out the trash, even if silver were to climb to $10000 a oz it would not be cost effective to reclaim the tiny amout you would get from each landfill, so to say that this silver isn't lost is absurd beyond all reasonable thought, as far a the government being proactive about any dang thing, I'm still waiting to see that dog and pony show, and believe you me I've paid good money to see it and still no freaking show, and I never said we are running out I said we were useing it faster than we were replaceing it, if silver were to get to $1000/oz I bet there would be a lot more mines trying to replace it, how many oz do we have below ground well your guess is as good as mine, but I. Do know this, the earth isn't makeing anymore of it. But all this is from the observations of a newbie id think that mighty moose or agshaman or ardent listener would be better prepared than I to have this debate.