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View Full Version : UAW leader says blame economy for Detroit 3 woes



mick silver
17th November 2008, 12:27
COLUMBUS, Ohio Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that the problem is not the union's contract with the automakers and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

"The focus has to be on the economy as a whole as opposed to a UAW contract," Gettelfinger told reporters on a conference call, noting the labor costs now make up 8 percent to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle.

"We have made dramatic, dramatic changes and the UAW was applauded for that," he said.

Instead, Gettelfinger blamed the problems the auto industry is suffering from on things beyond its control the housing slump, the credit crunch that has made financing a vehicle tough and the 1.2 million jobs that have been lost in the past year.

"We're here not because of what the auto industry has done," he said. "We're here because of what has happened to the economy."

Gettelfinger also called on Congress to act quickly on a bailout plan for the auto industry, saying action is necessary before President-elect Barack Obama takes office in January.

He said if one automaker were to file for bankruptcy, the others may follow. He said the automakers would find it difficult to restructure under bankruptcy laws and instead could end up out of business. "Would you buy a car from a bankrupt automaker?" he asked.

The Center for Automotive Research, which receives funding from the auto industry, has warned that the collapse of the Big Three could set off a catastrophic chain reaction in the economy, eliminating up to 3 million jobs and more than $150 billion in tax revenue over the next three years.

Gettelfinger called on Congress to act quickly to provide loans to help the automakers until the economy improves and the automakers can move ahead with their plans to become more competitive.

"We cannot afford to allow to see this industry collapse. There is a real concern that could happen."

General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are seeking $25 billion from the government to get them through the economic crisis and the worst sales slump in more than 25 years. GM appears to be in the worst shape, warning that it can't borrow from normal sources.

The nation's largest automaker said it had $16.2 billion in cash at the end of September, raising the possibility that GM will fall below the minimum of $11 billion to $14 billion needed for day-to-day operations by the end of the year.

Democrats in the lame-duck Congress are pressing for a bailout of Detroit's Big Three with money from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue package. But President George W. Bush and many Republicans have come out against the idea, arguing that the financial rescue package was not intended for such uses, and that a bailout would reward poor management and lead other industries to demand government handouts.

In a statement Saturday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the Democratic proposal gives automakers time to develop plans to assure their long-term viability, including meeting new fuel-efficiency standards and developing new technology.

"A restructured, competitive American automobile industry will continue to play a crucial role in our national economy and in the global marketplace," she said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081115/ap_on_bi_ge/auto_bailout_gettelfinger

mick silver
17th November 2008, 12:29
If they would lower the wages some , would that not help there companys , it look like the union well also ask for a bailout

nuslvrkwen
17th November 2008, 13:20
The auto manufacturers in this country are also responsible for their own situation. GM, Ford, & Chrysler didn't make anything that was remotely efficient on gas. In fact in the past 5 years these companies got rid of economy cars they had been selling in order to sell luxury SUVs. Did anyone see how they not only stopped making gas efficient autos and trucks, they acted like they didn't have to make them to sell cars in the US. GM manufactures a car that gets 40MPG and has sold it in Asia for 4 years. That car's not available here in this country.

Auto loans were tied to equity loans people got through banks. You know; those very same loans that are responsible for nationwide devaluation of property values and just about the value of all things that can be purchased.

So what this union leader says is: Put the economy back to the way it was - meaning massive spending through loans - and the auto industry would be just fine.

chux03
17th November 2008, 13:31
If one could cut the blame pie into several pieces, the UAW owns as large of a piece as any other entity gathered around the table looking to deflect anything resembling even partial responsibility for the ongoing woes of the Big-3 automakers.
While bankruptcy isn't pretty, when you add these guys into the mix, I'd like to know where's this going to end? And why would we give any money to such pathetic management structures that would seem to include the very people that failed to see or act in anything of a prudent manner and were the very ones that ran their company's into the ground?
I don't care what anyone says....this IS surely unsustainable and will end in the bankruptcy of the currency and the country, while all these criminals are still on the loose continuing to prey upon society. WHAT'S WRONG HERE??

mick silver
17th November 2008, 14:36
I also feel the same way chux , It a matter of time now before we are so poor we want know were to turn , IT seam like not one of our leader are thinking about the people , When the bailout passed they went for big business NOT THE PEOPLE

valerb
17th November 2008, 14:47
If you followed the history of the auto industry and it's contracts with the UAW, you would see how the auto makers gambled and lost. They gave the union benefits in stead of raises, like the 95% of pay during layoffs. They never anticipated they would be laying off large numbers for extended periods of time. This was their gamble and they made a real boo boo there. Their more recent contracts allow them to hire new employees at half the hourly wage of the older employees and with less benefits. That's what all of the buyouts have been about in the past couple of years. They are gambling again that they could afford to spend billions to get older employees to go away with huge severance packages so they could hire new lower paid employees. The only problem with that is the economy turned ugly and they got caught with their pants down once again. It takes years to recover the money spent on these buyouts, when they should have been using those billions on new products to compete with the Asians.
Now they are stuck with millions of gas guzzlers and no one wanting to buy them even if they could get a loan. So what are they doing now, closing more plants and buying out even more employees and going deeper into debt. Please loan us billions so we can pay for more buyouts and really cheapen our work force and the economy in the process. We might even take some of that money and look at building some better mileage cars again, but wait, gas prices are coming back down and we may not have to. Just make loans available so people can start buying our huge and very profitable SUVs and everything will be just fine. Our goal is to obtain a cheap labor force and to sell vehicles with a huge profit margin, so please give us the billions to make this happen, we "know" what we are doing!!!

Argentum
17th November 2008, 15:43
One point to think about is we now have the North vs the South again. The "foreign" auto makers are mostly located in the southern states while the Detroit auto makers are, well, in Detroit. Many in the south are asking why their taxes should be use to bail them out...

This is going to get interesting.

nuslvrkwen
17th November 2008, 15:53
The more people learn about the auto industry's upper level management's mistakes and how they truly feel about their employees, the less likely a bailout will happen for them! It's the employees that made them who they are. Those promises to the seniority were just wrong and set up by union organizers. By accepting those promises in those retirement packages the union short changed the workers by not being able to cross train any of them so they could work on new product. The old traditional union way.

The employees' work history is their timed retirement instrument. These stupid corporations have done nothing but waste the worker/investors time with their lousy business practices and management.

main1event
17th November 2008, 16:01
Right, everyone wants to blame the american worker, middle class. Whatever happened to the buck stops here. At every step of the way management has always blamed the work force. Never mind that CEOs and upper management make multi millions every year regardless of performance. There attitude has always been fire 1000 workers that will cut expenses and save the bottom line. Then they give themselves a pat on the back and a raise. That has been happening since the late 80's.

I'm pretty sick of the worker, and unions getting all the bad press. Unions were much stronger in the 50's and 60's and Car companies made the most money back then. Now unions are a mere shell of what they used to be.

The American people should be appalled at CEO and executive compensation, and what they've done to send our jobs overseas. A bailout will only bring more of the same but at the same time its going to crush the worker. Its definitely a trajedy.

Argentum
17th November 2008, 17:54
Looks like they are going to get 25 billion..... Congress just put it out there.

One thing that has me thinking, I have a mortgage with GMAC. If they get bailed out, I'm going to stop paying my mortgage and get some pay back.

Heck, they going to suck up every bit of that bailout money and it will not make anyone buy a car.... this is just a delaying action.

nuslvrkwen
17th November 2008, 18:29
You are paying the bailout to keep them from admiting guilt! You are paying the bailout so the automakers can continue to do what they've been doing all along. My advice about your mortgage, accelerate it. I hope its' a fixed rate mortgage. Pay 2 or 3 extra payments per year. Make them post all of those payments to principle only. Your amount of interest owed on the loan, AND the length of time you have to pay will plummet! They (GMAC) will freak and offer you some lower rate to do an equity draw once that loan is 2 years from being paid off. With proper planning and management you will NEVER have to borrow from them or any lender again. Mortgages are the new 'revolving charge'. GMAC had a history of taking good care of people with car loans, until they were about to be paid off. Then they'd get funky like every body else. Lenders live on interest payments.

cdavport
17th November 2008, 20:46
I guess there is nothing left of our so-called free economy. You know, the one where we all have the freedom to succeed, or to fail. You succeed if you build a better mouse trap, and you fail if you don't? Whatever happened to free enterprise?

The bottom line, Detroit builds crap. Blame it on management, union wages, whoever. But they absolutely can't compete with better quality, more efficient foreign automobiles. So what should happen? They should go out of business. It is absolutely the best thing that could happen. They've been dieing for 20 years anyways, and the worst thing we could do is to breathe several more years into this corpse by soaking the American taxpayer. Perhaps someone who has a better idea of how to compete would wind up with the assets and do a better job. And provide some jobs. They sure couldn't do much worse.

averagejoe
17th November 2008, 22:20
There is plenty of blame to go around with this deal. GM's per employee hour for wages and benefits is $71.00 per hour Ford and Chryslers are pretty much the same. Toyota's on the other hand is $47.00 per hour. You add that to all the millions in perks the big executives get and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why GM, Ford and Chrysler are unprofitable. Plus the fact they didn't react to what the consumer demanded as in " fuel effecient automobiles" and you come up with a recipe for failure. It's their own doing and we shound not be bailing out any company or bank or insurance company for bad MANAGEMENT PERIOD!!

valerb
17th November 2008, 22:30
I don't think anyone can buy them out, they have robbed Peter to pay Paul and their obligations to the retired workers is now out of control. Just taking over one of these monsters would be difficult enough without all the baggage that comes with it. I'm surprised they haven't filed for bankruptcy protection to dump their pension and health car obligations. The retired workers are the ones that will be affected the most. With a pension of $3,000 to $3,500 a month plus health benefits, how many put away extra to try and make ends meet. The amount is double for the couple that both retired from an automotive company. Imagine going from $6,000 - $7,000 a month to just Social Security, assuming they have reached retirement age yet. Then they are only getting around $3,000 a month combined or nothing if they are not old enough to claim that SS. I like their unions stance, don't worry, we have everything well invested. In what? Probably loaded to the gills in high yield derivatives!!

Somehow this all sounds to familiar, robbing Peter to pay Paul, isn't that how Social Security turned from a pension plan for all workers to what is now more commonly referred to as a welfare plan that is out of control. Obligations that can't be met because they spent all of the savings for decades and are "still" spending the excess. They need to re-work Social Security so they can bring in more income to keep it going longer or reduce payments. Either way, it is just a scam to increase the excess SS amount each year so "they" can spend it.

As I recall, it was the late, great, Ronald Reagan who got the ball rolling on this mess, while Clinton and Bush are getting all the glory. The didn't start it, they just perfected the art of destroying our nation and economy.

We don't need trade sanctions or any of that crap to make our economy start the healing process. With ten million officially unemployed and who knows what the real numbers are, how many of these people would be put back to work if we only did one thing. Stop allowing companies to send telephone support jobs overseas by the millions. Force them to bring the jobs back home and our unemployment numbers will drop like a rock.
No trade sanctions or barriers, just eliminate the extra long distance calls to people who we have a hard time understanding anyway.

averagejoe
17th November 2008, 22:43
Don't worry Valerb before this is over GM employees are going to be lucky if they are left with one red cent to retire on. You want to see mass panic wait until hundreds of thousands of auto workers wake up one morning to find their pensions have vanished into thin air.

hiyosilver
18th November 2008, 01:03
haha, the defaults on all the cars that are already financed are just beginning to hit the banks. Wait until those and the credit card defaults start piling in.....This is just the beginning...

mick silver
18th November 2008, 01:12
The beginning of the end

valerb
18th November 2008, 07:37
Don't worry Valerb before this is over GM employees are going to be lucky if they are left with one red cent to retire on. You want to see mass panic wait until hundreds of thousands of auto workers wake up one morning to find their pensions have vanished into thin air.

That's what I tried to tell my younger brother who retired from Jeep a couple of months ago after 31 years and with all this crap going on all over the world .
He thinks it's great and his pension is rock solid and he is only 49 years old. I told him to hang on to the job in case they file bankruptcy and drop the pension and you will at least still have your good paying job. Nope, nothing is going to go wrong with the pension, the union has assured us that it is safe. He is one of those I was referring to as being caught in the middle with a failing pension and to young to collect Social Security.
To top it off, he would never consider buying any silver for just such an occasion.

So what's next at 49 with 10 million unemployed and a failed pension plan. $7 an hour stocking shelves at Walmart!!!!

SkinnerVic
18th November 2008, 11:12
You are paying the bailout to keep them from admiting guilt! You are paying the bailout so the automakers can continue to do what they've been doing all along. My advice about your mortgage, accelerate it. I hope its' a fixed rate mortgage. Pay 2 or 3 extra payments per year. Make them post all of those payments to principle only. Your amount of interest owed on the loan, AND the length of time you have to pay will plummet! They (GMAC) will freak and offer you some lower rate to do an equity draw once that loan is 2 years from being paid off. With proper planning and management you will NEVER have to borrow from them or any lender again. Mortgages are the new 'revolving charge'. GMAC had a history of taking good care of people with car loans, until they were about to be paid off. Then they'd get funky like every body else. Lenders live on interest payments.

What I'm doing is a bit of a twist. I've been in a 10 YEAR Fixed paying the crap out of it (extra) for the past few years. Problem I see is that (in the nasty event I lose a job, etc), I won't be able to keep up on that. So my thinking (with the little balance I have left - not low enough to pay in full, too bad) is to push it back to 30 year. I have calculated that it will be paid off in less than 5 years, and if I have to make just the PITI, it's less than apartment RENT!! But if crap hits the fan, the amount of the payment will be a case of buttwipe, so I figure I make out like a winner either way.

nuslvrkwen
18th November 2008, 13:01
Even if you lose your job next year; if you've been accelerating for a couple years you've cut out like 5 or more years of payments on the stupid mortgage. Spacing it out is where you'll get into trouble in the long run. You give yourself more opportunity to have things 'go south' the longer this much money is going away from your hands paying mortgage. Getting rid of mortgage all together makes it so if you still have the job you were capable of making the mortgage payments with; the payment amounts will be going to YOU and your investment nest egg NOT another loan payment.

Nobody who can loan you money will TELL you to pay off a loan and save the money you used to pay out LIKE you were still paying the mortgage. For one thing THEY don't want YOU to figure out you'd accumulate THOUSANDS and not have to pay it back to ANYBODY!

I'm already comfortable with the idea buying a piece of real estate is not what I'd consider to be a good way to save money in my future, anyway. But this method of making the equivilent of a rent or mortgage payment to my personal PM & cash savings account IS how I'm going to be able to live somewhere outside the US for months at a time. Long vacations; after I retire.

About the union retirement plans and union focus: There hasn't been union focus for at least 30 years. That's what's wrong with unions. They are only interested in bringing in big hourly wages, and making deals for retirement pensions. There's really NO incentive for the worker to utilize their own abilities to make more efficient processes or even submit improvements to design. There's no incentives for publicly owned companies like automakers to continue in the directions with the investments they were using to build the retirement packages with anyway. Any and all of those retirement packages can be liquidated. Pennies on the dollar. All the company has to do is go bankrupt. The automakers are relying on themselves as being too big to fail.

With electronics it used to be different. On average very few electronics manufacturers in the US were union. The work went offshore sure. Now, China HAS to do it's stimulus plan to upgrade its' infrastructure to deal with the smog and pollution in the ground around its' communities because of unchecked growth in manufacturing. So the old union mentality of undercutting the hourly costs to manufacture did nothing for protections that will be more expensive to implement now; in China. China will have to compete with the rest of the world in the future now the economy is the way it is; to continue to lead in manufacturing.

The notion for an American company to be able to claim its' "re-building America" in the future, the majority of its' jobs are going to have to be here in the US. This economy being awful; is how new business and jobs are going to get off the ground here in the US. The companies will be smaller, and the funding will be more VC like rather than bank loan. This isn't dreaming or pie in the sky! Dispite what we've been reading; company's are really cutting back on lavish retreats and junkets for upper management. Companies NOT on Wall Street OR in the Banking business. For example; the law firm I work for is giving us the money it would usually spend on our holiday party. We like the money, but the parties were really fun! For two years in a row we would take over this place in the penthouse of an old bank building. The rooms were designed by Julia Morgan and the place is right out of the 1920s. It's got fireplaces, wood paneled walls, and paneled bars. It's a cross between the old rich boys' club and Hearst Castle. I'm sad we're not going.

SkinnerVic
18th November 2008, 14:19
Even if you lose your job next year; if you've been accelerating for a couple years you've cut out like 5 or more years of payments on the stupid mortgage. Spacing it out is where you'll get into trouble in the long run. You give yourself more opportunity to have things 'go south' the longer this much money is going away from your hands paying mortgage. Getting rid of mortgage all together makes it so if you still have the job you were capable of making the mortgage payments with; the payment amounts will be going to YOU and your investment nest egg NOT another loan payment.

Nobody who can loan you money will TELL you to pay off a loan and save the money you used to pay out LIKE you were still paying the mortgage. For one thing THEY don't want YOU to figure out you'd accumulate THOUSANDS and not have to pay it back to ANYBODY!

Precisely - Hence the reason I did the 10yr in the first place. My expectation is that it cut 16 years off a standard 30. I got it at 4.25%, about 4 years ago. I have been sacking the extra principle ever since. Stupid property taxes going up eat into extra principle.

Fast forward a few years into the payment schedule, if I compare the principle curve of a 10yr (current) and the 30yr (new one), and if I continue to pay the same amount, the delta in principle is less than 6%. It equates to 7 months more payments, with peace of mind that I can keep the family from living in a van down by the river. Like you know, I wish most people could do the math to save themselves.

nuslvrkwen
18th November 2008, 16:12
Most people can only do the math to figure they can make the payments to quote own a home unquote. The whole time all they are doing is making payments. That's how come so many of them will be living in vans down by the river.

valerb
18th November 2008, 19:09
Having followed the predictions of all this coming for several years now, I wanted to put all of our extra money into silver every month. My thoughts were that if we do go into hyperinflation like so many predict, it will wipe out our savings accounts, but it will also wipe out all of our debt as well. Since the US doesn't save much at all and most everyone is in debt up to their ass, hyperinflation would be the best thing for them. Unfortunately I couldn't convince my wife of that logic, so we have been paying triple payments which actually works out to be something like five extra payment of principal each month. Only 11 more months to go. I'm going to be really pissed if hyperinflation comes along and provides everyone a free house after we've put all our money into ours instead of a ton of extra silver. However if hyperinflation does not appear and tshf, I'll be glad our house is paid off.

My retired UAW brother informed me today that the automotive companies are not paying for all of these employee buyouts, but the union is using pension fund money to do it. He took a buyout when they eliminated Jeeps 3rd shift. Now they are talking about eliminating the second shift, 900 employees. The employees have to take the buyout offer and they have no options to return to work when they start the second shift again. Jeep is allowed to hire new people off the street for something like $12 or $14 an hour, compared to the current $30 and hour. Why in the world would a union use pension money to pay $30 an hour employees to go away and forfeit their pensions. They are playing the odds, pay someone with 10 to 20 years a lump sum payment to disappear and all the pension money obligations they have for that employee is capped at whatever the buyout price is. $70,000 to $100,000 buyouts are nothing compared to paying them $3,500 a month for life minus S.S. when they become eligible, plus health care that the union is now responsible for. They first bought out those still working with over 30 years service who had a lock on their pensions for life. At 49, my brother got a $70,000 buyout to retire after 31 years and will be drawing $3,500 a month for the next 18 years before he is eligible for SS. The next group were those under 30 years, but close enough to still offer a reduced pension and a sizable buyout. Then they were able to really cut their losses buy buying out employees and that's the end of their obligations. The companies get to turn around and hire new employees for half the pay and no retirement plan. Their current offer is to match a 401K plan up to $2,000 a year max. I also believe they have a reduce health plan compared to the older workers. I thought all of the UAW's wheeling and dealing was to help the failing auto industry, but it appears that the UAW is wheeling and dealing to protect itself and it's pension nest egg. The current thought of the retired workers is that the union is screwing so many employees out of their pension plans that they are starting to feel very secure as long as the UAW investments don't go bust. What a rat race to be caught up in.

averagejoe
18th November 2008, 23:02
It's a house of cards Valerb that is going to come tumbling down and your brother and all of the other auto workers will wake up to find their pensions gone and they are flat broke with no heath care. It's a sad state that should never have been allowed. The union is just as much at fault in this as the companies themselves.

mick silver
18th November 2008, 23:16
this bailout WELL BE JUST LIKE THE BANKS THEY WILL COME BACK TO THE WELL FOR AND MORE

nuslvrkwen
19th November 2008, 15:26
By GETTING an auto loan, or an equity loan either. If you've been reading statements from wall street execs and these *ssholes you'd know the worker is just plain better off to take the early retirement KNOWING the whole package will be renegotiated 5 years after they leave. The economic situation is such that corporations actually do stuff like merge with a minor entity or allow themselves to be bought out a superlow prices to be able to put a time frame like cap on the business activity that's costing them tons of money. Then they can hire whole new work crews earning half the old wage and none of the benefits.

This has to be about the concept of middleclass lifestyle. The middleclass with jobs still have cash flow to make changes and help themselves in the coming 3 to 5 years. This is a time when they should be re-evaluating whether getting a new loan OR paying for all the loans they currently have would make any sense anyway. Most are STILL reading the article put out on Monday telling them the concensus was the US is in a long deep recession.

Valerb - your family is probably looking at you the way families of other forum members look at them - like YOU are wierd for NOT being the debt hell they are in. "This is the ONLY WAY to maintain our way of life." They think.

Trvlr45
19th November 2008, 16:25
The only reason congress wants to bailout the car companies is because they need to buy votes from the union memebers and the UAW gives them a lot of money every year. Money stolen from the workers. The UAW which works for the demoncrats has been instrumental in destroying a key industry in this country and it will lead to a big national security risk since GM and others are what build our military vehicles. Oh, I forgot, the military isn't necessary either in the mind of a demoncrat.

The left is just as guilty as the automotive manufactuerers themselves for their problems. They were the ones that just passed the ridiculous fuel economy legislation and are also the people responsible for blocking oil drilling in our own country and driving the cost of fuel up.

It is pretty obvious the left has INTENTIONALLY caused the economy to crash by assaulting key industries such as housing, energy, the health care industry and the automotive industry.

The big three were building what AMERICA wants. Large, safe vehicles with carrying capacity. The communists want to clip our wings with little tin cans you can't put anything in and travel anywhere with while they stay in their Limo's and Gulfstream jets. The big 3 are building go-karts it's just that so many don't want them.

The only people that want go=karts live in or near big cities where all the pollution is concentrated and taxes are high to pay for social programs. Or, they have been forced to due to communists constantly attacking the oil industry, taxing them to death, and driving the cost of energy up blocking exploration based on the hoax of global warming or man-made climate change.

I've noticed that most people that live in big cities are very selfish and egotistical because they think that they should be able to decide what Joe and Mary Lunchbox should drive in Nebraska based on THEIR choice to live in the middle of a pollution center.

Now the communists have managed to hijack the election and take control of the house so they will set upon their un-american goal of turning this country into a communist dictatorship. They want government to decide everything for us. There will be no right to make your own choice on anything if they get their way.

There is no such thing as man-made climate change but they used it to destroy the automotive industry and the energy production of our country and enough people who don't do their homework fell for it. We don't need little 3-wheeled electric cars. we need to drill for and refine our own almost limitless sources of oil, natural gas and coal. They will now use the climate change hoax to steal what is left of our paychecks with carbon taxes when C02 is just plant food.

Environmentalism is a conveyer belt to communism. I hope everyone likes the ride.

Trvlr45
19th November 2008, 16:33
this bailout WELL BE JUST LIKE THE BANKS THEY WILL COME BACK TO THE WELL FOR AND MORE

You are correct, Mick. The banks and everyone else who is failing NEED to fail. We have spent trillions over the decades trying to fix the poverty situation and it is worse than ever. That just proves bailouts for ANYTHING never fix the problem.

Trvlr45
19th November 2008, 16:39
It's a house of cards Valerb that is going to come tumbling down and your brother and all of the other auto workers will wake up to find their pensions gone and they are flat broke with no heath care. It's a sad state that should never have been allowed. The union is just as much at fault in this as the companies themselves.

Most union memebers vote demoncrat. They think the private sector has an unlimited sum of money to give them whatever they want and the demoncrats have been borrowing and stealing for decades to buy those votes.

Well, it's over. They voted for their own demise.

Trvlr45
19th November 2008, 16:44
It's not just thecar companies and the banks either. Many big cities and states, the majority of which that are bankrupt are controlled by demoncrats are now broke and looking for a handout.

They continue to want us to pay for their irresponsible social programs. I guess they shouldn't spend all the money they spend fighting in court to take away second ammendment rights from their people leaving them helpless at the hands of gang members who live off the social programs THEY created.

This is almost laughable.

cugir321
19th November 2008, 20:38
Trvlr45: I don't know if I agree with 100%. Yes, they made cars we wanted and bought. They also knew that at 4.00 a gallon Americans would choose differently. I heard an oil executive say the above about 2 years ago....They saw oil rising. Americans don't want gas guzzlers anymore. I think it's the industry's tie to oil that killed them...they fed on each other. Even with the price of gas down, We don't trust the system anymore. We won't spend our money on a car that gets 18 mpg knowing the price could rise back up to 5.00 a gallon in a few months. It's too much of a drain on the pay check of middle america. We want big safe cars, but we want security more. The car industry could have diversified better. They need to fail. I don't think 90% of America worry's about global warming these days. They worry about the price of warming their body in the winter. When things get tough, basic essentials are all that matters.

Yes, congress are idiots. That's no excuse for the auto industy's decisions.



The only reason congress wants to bailout the car companies is because they need to buy votes from the union memebers and the UAW gives them a lot of money every year. Money stolen from the workers. The UAW which works for the demoncrats has been instrumental in destroying a key industry in this country and it will lead to a big national security risk since GM and others are what build our military vehicles. Oh, I forgot, the military isn't necessary either in the mind of a demoncrat.

The left is just as guilty as the automotive manufactuerers themselves for their problems. They were the ones that just passed the ridiculous fuel economy legislation and are also the people responsible for blocking oil drilling in our own country and driving the cost of fuel up.

It is pretty obvious the left has INTENTIONALLY caused the economy to crash by assaulting key industries such as housing, energy, the health care industry and the automotive industry.

The big three were building what AMERICA wants. Large, safe vehicles with carrying capacity. The communists want to clip our wings with little tin cans you can't put anything in and travel anywhere with while they stay in their Limo's and Gulfstream jets. The big 3 are building go-karts it's just that so many don't want them.

The only people that want go=karts live in or near big cities where all the pollution is concentrated and taxes are high to pay for social programs. Or, they have been forced to due to communists constantly attacking the oil industry, taxing them to death, and driving the cost of energy up blocking exploration based on the hoax of global warming or man-made climate change.

I've noticed that most people that live in big cities are very selfish and egotistical because they think that they should be able to decide what Joe and Mary Lunchbox should drive in Nebraska based on THEIR choice to live in the middle of a pollution center.

Now the communists have managed to hijack the election and take control of the house so they will set upon their un-american goal of turning this country into a communist dictatorship. They want government to decide everything for us. There will be no right to make your own choice on anything if they get their way.

There is no such thing as man-made climate change but they used it to destroy the automotive industry and the energy production of our country and enough people who don't do their homework fell for it. We don't need little 3-wheeled electric cars. we need to drill for and refine our own almost limitless sources of oil, natural gas and coal. They will now use the climate change hoax to steal what is left of our paychecks with carbon taxes when C02 is just plant food.

Environmentalism is a conveyer belt to communism. I hope everyone likes the ride.