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makeitback
17th January 2011, 20:19
I wondered why JP Morgan appeared to be cornering the copper market recently. It dawned on me that there may be a move afoot to get people to think of copper as a precious metal and perhaps move funds out of gold and silver into copper. This may also explain the advent off a copper ETF. See news item below:

The world refined copper market is expected to have a 500,000-metric-ton to 600,000-ton deficit in 2011, even with a significantly weaker demand scenario, according to JPMorgan Securities Ltd.
The International Copper Study Group is expecting a 435,000-ton global deficit in the refined metal this year.
“Copper is also increasingly being seen as scarce and is in many ways adopting some store of value attributes normally associated with precious metals,” he said in his presentation.

Silvature
17th January 2011, 21:23
Dude, wrong page for thread.


I wondered why JP Morgan appeared to be cornering the copper market recently. It dawned on me that there may be a move afoot to get people to think of copper as a precious metal and perhaps move funds out of gold and silver into copper. This may also explain the advent off a copper ETF. See news item below:

The world refined copper market is expected to have a 500,000-metric-ton to 600,000-ton deficit in 2011, even with a significantly weaker demand scenario, according to JPMorgan Securities Ltd.
The International Copper Study Group is expecting a 435,000-ton global deficit in the refined metal this year.
“Copper is also increasingly being seen as scarce and is in many ways adopting some store of value attributes normally associated with precious metals,” he said in his presentation.

ccjoe
18th January 2011, 06:35
Wrong page right thinking make.
Copper HAS been money for 9000 years and NOW is coming back as money as I've said over and over>http://www.copper.org/education/history/60centuries/modern/money.html
It is NOW finally becoming acceptable as the MSM must be listening to me:)

duneyman jr
18th January 2011, 10:08
What a joke...might go up like other things but not as a investment in my eyes its a scam. ..wouldn't be bad if you buy it for 1.50 pound pre 82 pennies bout it...

balou2
18th January 2011, 12:08
Give it time...I think a larger contingent will begin thinking this to be the case as well. Some VERY QUICK facts:

~ Copper has been used in industry, art, science, and as money for nearly 10,000 years. Compare this to gold and silver.
~ Copper carries intrinsic value, as well as monetary value Compare this to gold and silver.
~ Copper bullion (i.e. mmm to 99.5% or better, that is not coined) is readily available, and carries a higher premium than Au or Ag. Not an opinion, but a fact. This is only an illustration, pointing to global demand for investors and collectors of metals.
~ Copper is ALREADY money. Compare this to gold and silver.

These facts could go on ad nauseum. While I don't believe copper will every hold a dollar-to-dollar value to Au/Ag, it has outlived its younger brothers in both hedge and industry by thousands of years. As the state of global economics changes, and the average joe becomes aware of a need for new stores of value, Au/Ag will have rapidly passed the financial grasp of a major percentage of the population. In other words, when the "deaf, dumb and blind" become aware of this need, they won't be able to afford Au/Ag...copper on the other hand....

The ability to buy copper will continue to grow. The fact is, it is not accepted as a precious metal...not in any source that I have found. BUT...that doesn't mean it is without value. Value, after all, is an arbitrary assignment of worth, and by definition, allows for change. Why do you like silver? Why do like gold? Because it has value. Why? Because someone, hundreds of years ago (or in some cases, thousands) decided that Au/Ag were worth something. Had the Romans, Chinese, Germanic, Arabic, or other ancient culture decided that cow tongues were the trade medium of choice, maybe we'd be collecting cow tongues. Point being, all value (including silver and gold) is arbitrary, and defined by the demand. Gold and silver are established forms of wealth. Why? Because they are...simple as that - someone decided that, 1000's of years ago, and they continue to be as such. Our world, today, moves exponentially faster than ancient Greece. New trends and demands arise quicker than the daily sun. Copper has been a growing investment medium for as long as "someone" was able to define it as such. With the growing unrest, and the fact that it spreads instantaneously via the interwebs, a larger portion of the general public will decide they must flock to something to "keep them safe".

ENTER PSYCHOLOGY

Now, while the arbitrary assignment of worth could be bestowed upon cow tongues, it is doubtful. What is NOT doubtful, is industry looking at copper as a vehicle in to the poor man's pockets. With enough motivation, enough marketing, and enough continued economic disarray, the "poor man" will see ads on TV advertising copper buying/selling (a la "Cash for Gold"), and begin the process of believing in copper. This is not right or wrong; it merely is. With sufficient and repeated play, all of sudden the VALUE of copper has double, tripled, quadrupled....whatever, AND it's still within the ability of the poor man, to buy it!

Believe it, or not, but copper will carry value. What you or I believe is irrelevant, and any amount of egomaniacal whining over "silver and gold being better/real/true" will not matter. Wealth and value are arbitrary and are made by people like you, me, and joe. I would stake my first born's name on the fact that copper will, very soon, be produced and sold very readily, in coming years.

FWIW, I've been buying copper for a couple years now. Indeed, it is harder to store, but with a little ingenuity, that challenge becomes a non-thought. I posted a thread last year about copper, and was laughed out of the room because of it. Now...I do happen to know that a couple (at least 2) other people on this very laughable board ALSO believe in copper. I also flip it, and while many here scoff at such a notion, the fact is that I can sell a 1/2 .999 bar of copper for $8-10, when I paid $2.60 for it. ALL that profit goes back to metal...Cu, Au, or Ag. Believe what you want, but the public has already decided that copper is indeed worth its place in investment talks.

[/involved > lurk]

balou2
18th January 2011, 12:11
What a joke...might go up like other things but not as a investment in my eyes its a scam. ..wouldn't be bad if you buy it for 1.50 pound pre 82 pennies bout it...

In an odd way, your comment could be more true that you think - that's the psychology behind copper. BUT...your belief does not matter...nor does mine. When the masses STOP paying absurd premiums for copper, THEN it becomes a joke, a scam, a fad. Until then, this comment takes the place under "egomaniacal whining" from the "elitist silver/gold crowd" (not my words, but I tend to agree). It's hard to argue with nearly 10,000 years of history.

ccjoe
18th January 2011, 13:00
Give it time...I think a larger contingent will begin thinking this to be the case as well. Some VERY QUICK facts:

~ Copper has been used in industry, art, science, and as money for nearly 10,000 years. Compare this to gold and silver.
~ Copper carries intrinsic value, as well as monetary value Compare this to gold and silver.
~ Copper bullion (i.e. mmm to 99.5% or better, that is not coined) is readily available, and carries a higher premium than Au or Ag. Not an opinion, but a fact. This is only an illustration, pointing to global demand for investors and collectors of metals.
~ Copper is ALREADY money. Compare this to gold and silver.

These facts could go on ad nauseum. While I don't believe copper will every hold a dollar-to-dollar value to Au/Ag, it has outlived its younger brothers in both hedge and industry by thousands of years. As the state of global economics changes, and the average joe becomes aware of a need for new stores of value, Au/Ag will have rapidly passed the financial grasp of a major percentage of the population. In other words, when the "deaf, dumb and blind" become aware of this need, they won't be able to afford Au/Ag...copper on the other hand....

The ability to buy copper will continue to grow. The fact is, it is not accepted as a precious metal...not in any source that I have found. BUT...that doesn't mean it is without value. Value, after all, is an arbitrary assignment of worth, and by definition, allows for change. Why do you like silver? Why do like gold? Because it has value. Why? Because someone, hundreds of years ago (or in some cases, thousands) decided that Au/Ag were worth something. Had the Romans, Chinese, Germanic, Arabic, or other ancient culture decided that cow tongues were the trade medium of choice, maybe we'd be collecting cow tongues. Point being, all value (including silver and gold) is arbitrary, and defined by the demand. Gold and silver are established forms of wealth. Why? Because they are...simple as that - someone decided that, 1000's of years ago, and they continue to be as such. Our world, today, moves exponentially faster than ancient Greece. New trends and demands arise quicker than the daily sun. Copper has been a growing investment medium for as long as "someone" was able to define it as such. With the growing unrest, and the fact that it spreads instantaneously via the interwebs, a larger portion of the general public will decide they must flock to something to "keep them safe".

ENTER PSYCHOLOGY

Now, while the arbitrary assignment of worth could be bestowed upon cow tongues, it is doubtful. What is NOT doubtful, is industry looking at copper as a vehicle in to the poor man's pockets. With enough motivation, enough marketing, and enough continued economic disarray, the "poor man" will see ads on TV advertising copper buying/selling (a la "Cash for Gold"), and begin the process of believing in copper. This is not right or wrong; it merely is. With sufficient and repeated play, all of sudden the VALUE of copper has double, tripled, quadrupled....whatever, AND it's still within the ability of the poor man, to buy it!

Believe it, or not, but copper will carry value. What you or I believe is irrelevant, and any amount of egomaniacal whining over "silver and gold being better/real/true" will not matter. Wealth and value are arbitrary and are made by people like you, me, and joe. I would stake my first born's name on the fact that copper will, very soon, be produced and sold very readily, in coming years.

FWIW, I've been buying copper for a couple years now. Indeed, it is harder to store, but with a little ingenuity, that challenge becomes a non-thought. I posted a thread last year about copper, and was laughed out of the room because of it. Now...I do happen to know that a couple (at least 2) other people on this very laughable board ALSO believe in copper. I also flip it, and while many here scoff at such a notion, the fact is that I can sell a 1/2 .999 bar of copper for $8-10, when I paid $2.60 for it. ALL that profit goes back to metal...Cu, Au, or Ag. Believe what you want, but the public has already decided that copper is indeed worth its place in investment talks.

[/involved > lurk]

We can laugh with eveyone but we'll be going to the bank to wire more money and make more profits.
It's good to hear intelligent thought process.

duneyman jr
18th January 2011, 14:41
Well let us know when u sell it is prob got some profit but what makes it different then previous years...all they gotta do is mine it.

balou2
18th January 2011, 16:10
Two things:

#1 - The copper I have is .999 fine; not your average smolted or poured copper pipe,
#2 - Public perception has changed. As the public has changed its perception, so too has the value of the metal. Now, there's even an ETF (and I use that term loosely) for copper. Somebody, somewhere, thought he/she could make money off of it, and created an easier way for traders to "buy copper". With this added attention (real, or created), the price has increased; with price increase comes production increase; with production increase comes more attention; repeat cycle.

All I know is that I'm bettin' my money that copper will begin following investment cycles similar to that of silver and other PMs. Not identical, but similar. More copper is consumed annually, for industrial uses, than silver so price increases will have greater affect on daily activities.

silverheartbone
18th January 2011, 16:44
Yes, silver is moving up in the world. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

What is Truth?
18th January 2011, 17:02
I wondered why JP Morgan appeared to be cornering the copper market recently. It dawned on me that there may be a move afoot to get people to think of copper as a precious metal and perhaps move funds out of gold and silver into copper. This may also explain the advent off a copper ETF. See news item below:

The world refined copper market is expected to have a 500,000-metric-ton to 600,000-ton deficit in 2011, even with a significantly weaker demand scenario, according to JPMorgan Securities Ltd.
The International Copper Study Group is expecting a 435,000-ton global deficit in the refined metal this year.p
“Copper is also increasingly being seen as scarce and is in many ways adopting some store of value attributes normally associated with precious metals,” he said in his presentation.

The fact the this post implies that money many be moving out of precious metals and into copper means it belongs in this section.

Copper is a semi-precious metal. Nickel is even more so and Cobalt more so than nickel and on and on.

ccjoe
18th January 2011, 17:16
Two things:

#1 - The copper I have is .999 fine; not your average smolted or poured copper pipe,
#2 - Public perception has changed. As the public has changed its perception, so too has the value of the metal. Now, there's even an ETF (and I use that term loosely) for copper. Somebody, somewhere, thought he/she could make money off of it, and created an easier way for traders to "buy copper". With this added attention (real, or created), the price has increased; with price increase comes production increase; with production increase comes more attention; repeat cycle.

All I know is that I'm bettin' my money that copper will begin following investment cycles similar to that of silver and other PMs. Not identical, but similar. More copper is consumed annually, for industrial uses, than silver so price increases will have greater affect on daily activities.

My rich sister just bought a second house 20 acre spread near carmel. The point is if I visit her, I might visit you balou because you echo my thoughts and R and D.
Just please stop responding to mental illness as I FINALLY decided. It's hopeless> there's only ONE here.
BONE is someone I have issues with but he is 1) Brilliant; 2) NOT mental. Point is just AVOID one mental person here and I will buy you some chocolate at Guiardellis on FW.

balou2
18th January 2011, 17:49
Ha! That's funny. If you noticed, I have all but ceased posting AT ALL on this board. I do not agree with a majority of the sentiment here...probably somewhere in the middle of Roger (on one extreme), and Bone (on the other). But...I couldn't resist the copper thing, since I brought it up quite some time ago and was laughed out of dodge. Beyond that, I barely even look at the board...it's disgusting what it has turned in to over the last 12-14 months.

What is Truth?
18th January 2011, 18:12
Ha! That's funny. If you noticed, I have all but ceased posting AT ALL on this board. I do not agree with a majority of the sentiment here...probably somewhere in the middle of Roger (on one extreme), and Bone (on the other). But...I couldn't resist the copper thing, since I brought it up quite some time ago and was laughed out of dodge. Beyond that, I barely even look at the board...it's disgusting what it has turned in to over the last 12-14 months.

Yea, that's hilarious........

makeitback
18th January 2011, 18:24
Yes, the point of the thread is to point out the possibility that this is just another strategy (selling copper as a precious metal), that the "boyz" are using to try to get people out of gold and silver. I believe it is an act of desperation, but certainly worthy of discussion on this forum. I do believe that we are at a tipping point with silver. I suspect that the bear raids over the last two weeks were a last ditch desperate attempt to free up some physical silver so that the Ponzi can continuue. I get the impression that it failed.

balou2
18th January 2011, 23:11
Yes, the point of the thread is to point out the possibility that this is just another strategy (selling copper as a precious metal), that the "boyz" are using to try to get people out of gold and silver. I believe it is an act of desperation, but certainly worthy of discussion on this forum. I do believe that we are at a tipping point with silver. I suspect that the bear raids over the last two weeks were a last ditch desperate attempt to free up some physical silver so that the Ponzi can continuue. I get the impression that it failed.

I probably wouldn't go quite that far, but there is, likely, some truth to that. The "yes" side of me says that indeed...the folks on the street are the ones assisting the rapid increase in Cu prices; this is done with copper ETFs (a la treatment like Au and Ag) and paper trading, which falsely inflates the actual price of copper. The "no" side of me says that it's not quite that hardcore, especially since copper has a longer industrial and monetary history than either silver or gold. While I do believe that their is some of what you say going on, I also believe that more of the public is becoming interested in copper - largely because it is cheaper than silver. Whether it can actually be valued as a precious metal or not, meh...I don't have a real opinion either way. But...IMHO, we certainly have reached a new time in commodities...when silver is beginning to be out of reach of the commoner, at least in bulk, and something new shows its face, then yeh...we've crossed a threshhold.

valerb
19th January 2011, 03:35
I probably wouldn't go quite that far, but there is, likely, some truth to that. The "yes" side of me says that indeed...the folks on the street are the ones assisting the rapid increase in Cu prices; this is done with copper ETFs (a la treatment like Au and Ag) and paper trading, which falsely inflates the actual price of copper. The "no" side of me says that it's not quite that hardcore, especially since copper has a longer industrial and monetary history than either silver or gold. While I do believe that their is some of what you say going on, I also believe that more of the public is becoming interested in copper - largely because it is cheaper than silver. Whether it can actually be valued as a precious metal or not, meh...I don't have a real opinion either way. But...IMHO, we certainly have reached a new time in commodities...when silver is beginning to be out of reach of the commoner, at least in bulk, and something new shows its face, then yeh...we've crossed a threshhold.

I think Copper sucks as an investment for the individual investor, unless you can buy it on an ETF or one of the metal exchanges where you don't have to actually take delivery. The retail premiums are unreal. I also disagree with the fact that Silver is getting to expensive. With people paying the same for a kilo of Copper as they do for an ounce of Silver, where is the difference? Look into the future and if you find Silver has jumped to $60 an ounce, then you can buy a one half ounce Silver round. If Silver has jumped to $120 an ounce, then you can buy a one quarter ounce bar. Then there are the 5 gram and one gram bars when Silver goes even higher.

I think the opposite is true for Copper as an investment, that is, when the premiums come down to a realistic level, more people will be drawn to copper.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a kilo of Copper coming with 150% - 200% premium is not a sound investment when compared to Silver selling for only a 3% premium in volume or 10% if not in volume. If you can't figure this one out, then you shouldn't be investing in any metals. I'm sorry to offend any of you Copper lovers, but it's a bad bet at these retail prices. You may think that because you paid an over priced premium, that you'll be able to sell it for a similar over priced premium as well. Maybe, maybe not, it's one hell of a gamble. It's really like paying $60 to $90 for an ounce of Silver and hoping it will continue to rise and someone is willing to pay a huge premium in the future as well.

Since I think paying $30 for an ounce of Silver is a risky venture, you can understand why I think Copper at the retail level is crazy.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 06:13
I think Copper sucks as an investment for the individual investor, unless you can buy it on an ETF or one of the metal exchanges where you don't have to actually take delivery. The retail premiums are unreal. I also disagree with the fact that Silver is getting to expensive. With people paying the same for a kilo of Copper as they do for an ounce of Silver, where is the difference? Look into the future and if you find Silver has jumped to $60 an ounce, then you can buy a one half ounce Silver round. If Silver has jumped to $120 an ounce, then you can buy a one quarter ounce bar. Then there are the 5 gram and one gram bars when Silver goes even higher.

I think the opposite is true for Copper as an investment, that is, when the premiums come down to a realistic level, more people will be drawn to copper.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a kilo of Copper coming with 150% - 200% premium is not a sound investment when compared to Silver selling for only a 3% premium in volume or 10% if not in volume. If you can't figure this one out, then you shouldn't be investing in any metals. I'm sorry to offend any of you Copper lovers, but it's a bad bet at these retail prices. You may think that because you paid an over priced premium, that you'll be able to sell it for a similar over priced premium as well. Maybe, maybe not, it's one hell of a gamble. It's really like paying $60 to $90 for an ounce of Silver and hoping it will continue to rise and someone is willing to pay a huge premium in the future as well.

Since I think paying $30 for an ounce of Silver is a risky venture, you can understand why I think Copper at the retail level is crazy.

The more desirable the coin, the higher the premium. My pandas have skyrocketed with the huge premiums and Picasso paintings have skyrocketed with huge premiums to make an analogy. The more valuable and in demand the commodity, the higher the premium.
COPPER is the perfect example RIGHT NOW in history.
If people can't see it, I can't help them.

Matthew Shelley
19th January 2011, 11:05
The more desirable the coin, the higher the premium. My pandas have skyrocketed with the huge premiums and Picasso paintings have skyrocketed with huge premiums to make an analogy. The more valuable and in demand the commodity, the higher the premium.
COPPER is the perfect example RIGHT NOW in history.
If people can't see it, I can't help them.

Picasso paintings have no premium. Premium is price paid over wholesale spot. There is no 'spot' for a painting.

balou2
19th January 2011, 11:34
I think Copper sucks as an investment for the individual investor, unless you can buy it on an ETF or one of the metal exchanges where you don't have to actually take delivery. The retail premiums are unreal. I also disagree with the fact that Silver is getting to expensive. With people paying the same for a kilo of Copper as they do for an ounce of Silver, where is the difference? Look into the future and if you find Silver has jumped to $60 an ounce, then you can buy a one half ounce Silver round. If Silver has jumped to $120 an ounce, then you can buy a one quarter ounce bar. Then there are the 5 gram and one gram bars when Silver goes even higher.

I think the opposite is true for Copper as an investment, that is, when the premiums come down to a realistic level, more people will be drawn to copper.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a kilo of Copper coming with 150% - 200% premium is not a sound investment when compared to Silver selling for only a 3% premium in volume or 10% if not in volume. If you can't figure this one out, then you shouldn't be investing in any metals. I'm sorry to offend any of you Copper lovers, but it's a bad bet at these retail prices. You may think that because you paid an over priced premium, that you'll be able to sell it for a similar over priced premium as well. Maybe, maybe not, it's one hell of a gamble. It's really like paying $60 to $90 for an ounce of Silver and hoping it will continue to rise and someone is willing to pay a huge premium in the future as well.

Since I think paying $30 for an ounce of Silver is a risky venture, you can understand why I think Copper at the retail level is crazy.

Hence, the reason I utilized a second point, illustrating the psychological viewpoint. I don't necessarily disagree with your words, and in some ways, copper does NOT make sense, but it's hard to argue with what is occuring in actuality. There's no verifiable means to understand why people pay what they pay...the fact is, they pay it. If you choose to believe that it will cease to occur, that is fine, but until it happens, it still happens. Besides...I've heard plenty of members (myself included) on this board discuss the idea of cost-averaging. If you enter in to a new buying strategy at high premiums, but cost average over the years to come, your point is virutally moot.

For my money, it doesn't make a lot a sense to take delivery on large amounts of copper because of the size it would take to store such a thing, but that's just my postion, and my ability to store. While I do have several hundred kilos, I wouldn't be able to plunk down $50k. Someone on this board stated that he purchased a large amount (I won't mention who, or how much), but that would not work for me. The difference is, even at that amount, it would be hard for this person NOT to make an ROI. Call it what you will, and think what you will, but what is happening now is not following traditional thinking. People clamor for something new and it is gobbled up. With copper, however, it has always been there. It's not a new product that people read about or see on the tele...its collectibility is, but only in this form. It will be very easy for marketers to talk about how copper has always been around, even as money, and then mold it in to a product (e.g. "bullion") that more people want. It'll happen...it already is. Dispute it as you will, but it's happening. Mathematically, I think you're right, but again...for now...the return is higher.

As for your point about silver not being too expensive, you're wrong. Do you realize the number of people in the U.S. who would have a difficult time plunking down $30 at a time? A LOT. I guarantee that there are more people who would be willing to throw down $5 for something that has potential to grow. This doesn't mean they're making the right decision, it merely is a fact based on U.S. economic and socialogic reality. There is still a fair contingent of people who are able to purchase silver...and likely, the ones who have been buying, will continue finding a way. But a whole new crop of "investors" are popping on to the radar, looking to get their money in to something different, and $30 a pop is not always an option. I have ads all over the place for selling copper, and these are the people I hear from...well, them and silver/gold bugs who think copper has a future.

Are you wrong? Dunno.
Am I right? Dunno.

What I do know is that I am crossing paths with a growing number of people (in real life) who disagree with your opinion, and purchase copper. For me, I'll keep buying gold, silver, and copper. I don't think I'll have issue with any of the three.

valerb
19th January 2011, 11:49
As for your point about silver not being too expensive, you're wrong. Do you realize the number of people in the U.S. who would have a difficult time plunking down $30 at a time? A LOT. I guarantee that there are more people who would be willing to throw down $5 for something that has potential to grow. This doesn't mean they're making the right decision, it merely is a fact based on U.S. economic and socialogic reality. There is still a fair contingent of people who are able to purchase silver...and likely, the ones who have been buying, will continue finding a way. But a whole new crop of "investors" are popping on to the radar, looking to get their money in to something different, and $30 a pop is not always an option. I have ads all over the place for selling copper, and these are the people I hear from...well, them and silver/gold bugs who think copper has a future.


That's even worse at $5, the premium are even higher for smaller peices of Copper. You can buy 1 gram micro chips and never get you money back this century.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 11:55
Picasso paintings have no premium. Premium is price paid over wholesale spot. There is no 'spot' for a painting.
I have a very high IQ liberal arts head Matt so please don't speak until you at least google.
YOU ARE WRONG again.
All expensive paintings have a premium> http://www.rttnews.com/Content/EntertainmentNews.aspx?Id=1295688&Section=2
It is DIFFERENT THAN metals premiums. I did NOT mention spot.
In the esoteric terminology of painting auctions, buying, etc PREMIUM is the commonly used epithet to describe a painting that goes for more than what the experts consider "fair value." There's also buyers premiums, sellers premiums, etc but I don't have time to educate you Matt.
Like I tell my kids, be damned sure before you pick someone up on someone, because they will not like it.
You had NO reason to try to "get me" other than ego.
Relax and stick to commodities and let us liberal arts heads stick to everything else.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 11:59
Hence, the reason I utilized a second point, illustrating the psychological viewpoint. I don't necessarily disagree with your words, and in some ways, copper does NOT make sense, but it's hard to argue with what is occuring in actuality. There's no verifiable means to understand why people pay what they pay...the fact is, they pay it. If you choose to believe that it will cease to occur, that is fine, but until it happens, it still happens. Besides...I've heard plenty of members (myself included) on this board discuss the idea of cost-averaging. If you enter in to a new buying strategy at high premiums, but cost average over the years to come, your point is virutally moot.

For my money, it doesn't make a lot a sense to take delivery on large amounts of copper because of the size it would take to store such a thing, but that's just my postion, and my ability to store. While I do have several hundred kilos, I wouldn't be able to plunk down $50k. Someone on this board stated that he purchased a large amount (I won't mention who, or how much), but that would not work for me. The difference is, even at that amount, it would be hard for this person NOT to make an ROI. Call it what you will, and think what you will, but what is happening now is not following traditional thinking. People clamor for something new and it is gobbled up. With copper, however, it has always been there. It's not a new product that people read about or see on the tele...its collectibility is, but only in this form. It will be very easy for marketers to talk about how copper has always been around, even as money, and then mold it in to a product (e.g. "bullion") that more people want. It'll happen...it already is. Dispute it as you will, but it's happening. Mathematically, I think you're right, but again...for now...the return is higher.

As for your point about silver not being too expensive, you're wrong. Do you realize the number of people in the U.S. who would have a difficult time plunking down $30 at a time? A LOT. I guarantee that there are more people who would be willing to throw down $5 for something that has potential to grow. This doesn't mean they're making the right decision, it merely is a fact based on U.S. economic and socialogic reality. There is still a fair contingent of people who are able to purchase silver...and likely, the ones who have been buying, will continue finding a way. But a whole new crop of "investors" are popping on to the radar, looking to get their money in to something different, and $30 a pop is not always an option. I have ads all over the place for selling copper, and these are the people I hear from...well, them and silver/gold bugs who think copper has a future.

Are you wrong? Dunno.
Am I right? Dunno.

What I do know is that I am crossing paths with a growing number of people (in real life) who disagree with your opinion, and purchase copper. For me, I'll keep buying gold, silver, and copper. I don't think I'll have issue with any of the three.
The ONLY thing that doesn't make sense with copper is that it's 4.45 currently spot! It should be 4.45 oz NOT lb.
People will look back to 2011 and say "how the hell couldn't we have seen the supply/demand crisis like most of the experts warned us about.
Again, if cu was food and had this shortage, they would be rioting in the streets.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 12:04
That's even worse at $5, the premium are even higher for smaller peices of Copper. You can buy 1 gram micro chips and never get you money back this century.

Balou- We love Val but he's worth > million and does not understand your cogent and incontrovertible points about the "average person" and his/her inability to afford anything more than a fin for PM or semi PM like cu.
I have been mostly poor but had a good run with the well to do so it's easy for me to see the truth.
People do NOT know that 460 million Chinese live on 2 bucks a day or less. They have a 9000 year history of cu as coinage and WILL buy only copper. You cannot rationally argue with that unless there is a low self esteem problem and the compensation personality issue.
That's why so few people WILL make a fortune in copper AND silver as I have/will.
Jim Rogers said it best when he said you can show the same facts to 100 people and 98 will get it wrong every time.
Look at Val and Matt:) At least Matt has admitted his mistakes and I'm waiting for my good friend Val to also:)

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 12:10
MATT---- This might be an example of how you need to study this stuff for years to make comments>http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V64-4WGVPWH-2&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F28%2F2010&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1612700144&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=fa6f8389a0184b3f7279e5c0854a45bc&searchtype=a
It gets real esoteric.
I guess you wouldn't like it if people picked you up on trading commodities and had NO clue like you had no clue about painting premiums and called me out with your foolish post.

duneyman jr
19th January 2011, 12:20
The ONLY thing that doesn't make sense with copper is that it's 4.45 currently spot! It should be 4.45 oz NOT lb.
People will look back to 2011 and say "how the hell couldn't we have seen the supply/demand crisis like most of the experts warned us about.
Again, if cu was food and had this shortage, they would be rioting in the streets.
Cant eat copper. Joe get over it, your brainwashed.

duneyman jr
19th January 2011, 12:27
The ONLY thing that doesn't make sense with copper is that it's 4.45 currently spot! It should be 4.45 oz NOT lb.
People will look back to 2011 and say "how the hell couldn't we have seen the supply/demand crisis like most of the experts warned us about.
Again, if cu was food and had this shortage, they would be rioting in the streets.
Cant eat copper. Joe get over it, your brainwashed.
People want silver and gold..I'm sure you've seen rudolph and have heard the song....goes somethi g like this......silver and gold ....silver and gold....um not copper..
Your trying too brainwash people into investing in copper or talk into instead of silver. Silver is the investment that's why were here not copper. A wise investment would be too invest 50bucks and go on ebay and buy a copper sorter. Goto a bank and buy boxes of pennies the machine sorts all copper pennies out....therefore you have no loss in your investment,,,comes out to aroind 1.50 pound...or can sell on ebay copper pennies at 40% mark up....come out ahead...no sense in buying high premium copper.....stupendous!!!!!!!!!!

silverheartbone
19th January 2011, 12:33
(³)base adj 1 : of inferior quality : debased, alloyed 2 : contemptible, ignoble 3 : menial, degrading 4 : of little value syn low, vile, despicable, wretched — base•ly adv — base•ness n


Cant eat copper. Joe get over it, your brainwashed.

LOL. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif You can't eat silver either.

DJ, which agency do you think is running him?

balou2
19th January 2011, 12:36
No worries. I didn't enter the thread to be confrontational. Val has an opinion that he believes in, and in some ways I agree. It is a HUGE premium to pay $5 for a 1/2 pound. Hell...I've sold 1/2 bars as high as $12 + $3 shipping, ebay. It's not my place to judge why other people pay what they do for things. My only point was, and still is:

~ Copper is valued by more people than gold/silver collectors realize, and this will continue as perception continues reinventing itself. Paintings DO carry premiums...I believe Christie's percentage ABOVE auction sale price is 3-5%, and larger for bigger works. If that's not a premium, I don't know what is.

And...fwiw...you can eat copper. Just like silver, there are copper supplements, and copper-based preservatives. Believe it or not, there are EVEN MORE uses for copper than there are for silver. Most egos will not allow for that fact to resonate. Whatevs. I'll be buyin' both.

silverheartbone
19th January 2011, 12:37
pre•cious \"pre-shes\ adj 1 : of great value <~ jewels> 2 : greatly cherished : dear <~ memories> 3 : affected <~ language>

balou2
19th January 2011, 12:38
(³)base adj 1 : of inferior quality : debased, alloyed 2 : contemptible, ignoble 3 : menial, degrading 4 : of little value syn low, vile, despicable, wretched — base•ly adv — base•ness n



LOL. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif You can't eat silver either.

DJ, which agency do you think is running him?

I don't think it was presented in any other way...although public perception has LINKED it to precious metals. Even the term "bullion" has been used in quotes, as by definition (in most places) bullion is used for silver and gold only (not even platinum and palladium are 100% accepted as bullion, rather, bars or coins)

orlando_wrx
19th January 2011, 12:47
Even though I'd like to rail on copper (as increased demand of copper leads to more copper mines which leads to more silver supply which leads to lower silver price), the world population is already at an enormous level and only increases exponentially (tripled in the last 30 years). Whether JPMs announcement of a copper "shortage" is honest or not, it WILL be the case soon enough. Before long, barring any mass extermination of the world population, every metal will be a precious metal as demand will easily outstrip supply of every resource we have on our planet. Just grab a bunch of anything that doesn't rot away and in 20 years you will be very wealthy. To the top!

silverheartbone
19th January 2011, 12:58
Even though I'd like to rail on copper (as increased demand of copper leads to more copper mines which leads to more silver supply which leads to lower silver price), the world population is already at an enormous level and only increases exponentially (tripled in the last 30 years). Whether JPMs announcement of a copper "shortage" is honest or not, it WILL be the case soon enough. Before long, barring any mass extermination of the world population, every metal will be a precious metal as demand will easily outstrip supply of every resource we have on our planet. Just grab a bunch of anything that doesn't rot away and in 20 years you will be very wealthy. To the top!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_the_United_States

Western Utah Copper has applied for a permit to start an open-pit copper mine near Milford. Western Utah Copper estimates that their Milford properties will yield 100 thousand tonnes of copper, 115,000 ounces (3.58 tonnes) of gold, and 11.5 million ounces (358 tonnes) of silver over a five-year period.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg/250px-Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine

Cumulatively, Bingham Canyon has produced more copper than any other mine in the USA, and is the second in the world after Chuquicamata in Chile. Mines in Chile, Indonesia, Arizona, and New Mexico now exceed Bingham Canyon's annual production rate. High molybdenum prices in 2005 made the molybdenum produced at Bingham Canyon in that year worth even more than the copper. The value of metals produced in 2006 at Bingham Canyon was US$1.8 billion dollars.

Matthew Shelley
19th January 2011, 14:23
Semantics. Often used in marketing when you want to misdirect your customers into thinking that what they are hearing is not what you are saying. An auction house such as Christie's calls it a 'premium' so it sounds nice. Their 3-5% over price paid is actually a commission. Much the same as a real estate transaction has a 6% over, which a real estate broker does call a commission so as not to sound pretentious. Or my commissions that I charge a customer per trade, win or lose.

No need to educate me in the world of auctions, paintings, and collectibles. That was my Mother's world and passion, and I have had more education in it than most would ever think of.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

mark2112gum
19th January 2011, 15:29
Think before you type!, every home and building in the industrialized world uses copper, so there's a ton of it around...Copper as a precious metal, give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 15:43
Semantics. Often used in marketing when you want to misdirect your customers into thinking that what they are hearing is not what you are saying. An auction house such as Christie's calls it a 'premium' so it sounds nice. Their 3-5% over price paid is actually a commission. Much the same as a real estate transaction has a 6% over, which a real estate broker does call a commission so as not to sound pretentious. Or my commissions that I charge a customer per trade, win or lose.

No need to educate me in the world of auctions, paintings, and collectibles. That was my Mother's world and passion, and I have had more education in it than most would ever think of.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

You could have fooled me as I ASSUMED most people here knew the semantics I was alluding to. I guess you didn't?
Just read my links so you'll have a clue.
Premiums for coins could also be construed as "commissions." Anything to cling to your specious argument.
No need to misdirect here Matt as everyone sees the links and the truth.
The higher and move valuable something is, the higher the premium, commissions or whatever terminology is palatable with your ego needs.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 15:50
Think before you type!, every home and building in the industrialized world uses copper, so there's a ton of it around...Copper as a precious metal, give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just google before you type.http://www.advisoranalyst.com/glablog/2010/01/02/is-copper-the-new-precious-metal/
I think you caught the Matt disease of trying to get someone for ego purposes when the opposite is true and I am correct.
Just keep it shut so as not to prove your lack of knowledge.
Give all us serious money people here a break.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 15:51
Two more rogers here on this thread!
We're trying to make some money here in reality based thought.
Go to another thread where you have a clue.

orlando_wrx
19th January 2011, 16:03
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_mining_in_the_United_States

Western Utah Copper has applied for a permit to start an open-pit copper mine near Milford. Western Utah Copper estimates that their Milford properties will yield 100 thousand tonnes of copper, 115,000 ounces (3.58 tonnes) of gold, and 11.5 million ounces (358 tonnes) of silver over a five-year period.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg/250px-Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Bingham_Canyon_April_2005.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine

Cumulatively, Bingham Canyon has produced more copper than any other mine in the USA, and is the second in the world after Chuquicamata in Chile. Mines in Chile, Indonesia, Arizona, and New Mexico now exceed Bingham Canyon's annual production rate. High molybdenum prices in 2005 made the molybdenum produced at Bingham Canyon in that year worth even more than the copper. The value of metals produced in 2006 at Bingham Canyon was US$1.8 billion dollars.

With an annual output of 20K tonnes (100k/5 years) that mine will meet .1% of 2009 annual global consumption (around 22000000 tonnes).

balou2
19th January 2011, 16:38
Semantics. Often used in marketing when you want to misdirect your customers into thinking that what they are hearing is not what you are saying. An auction house such as Christie's calls it a 'premium' so it sounds nice. Their 3-5% over price paid is actually a commission. Much the same as a real estate transaction has a 6% over, which a real estate broker does call a commission so as not to sound pretentious. Or my commissions that I charge a customer per trade, win or lose.

No need to educate me in the world of auctions, paintings, and collectibles. That was my Mother's world and passion, and I have had more education in it than most would ever think of.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

Actually, Mr. Shelley, "semantics" is somewhat related to my original post in this thread. Silver, gold, etc. has value, because "someone said it was worth something"...albeit a long time ago. "Someone" is saying that now about copper, though the ratio of value is significantly smaller per unit than gold and/or silver. While the impetus may be different, and the relationship nowhere near as long, it is similar. I have nowhere near the experience in trading as you, but having sold hard-commodities for 20 years, I DO hear the voices of folks I speak with, and right now, it's copper. The two LCS owners (both of whom have been in business 20 or more years )say the same thing, though they do not see a massive increase in price, anytime soon (i.e. 500% or more). I do think silver vs. copper is apples and oranges, and I do think (in large part) that copper will never hold a candle to silver and gold as a precious metal, but I DON'T think that will stop people from believing it has investment value. Surely...even you couldn't dispute that. Whether or not we believe that "copper will shoot to the moon" (hell...I don't even believe silver will "shoot to the moon") is irrelevant. If people are willing to pay, and continue buying, then it becomes true, de facto. Until that stops, none of what any of us say matters.

Matthew Shelley
19th January 2011, 17:01
Actually, Mr. Shelley, "semantics" is somewhat related to my original post in this thread. Silver, gold, etc. has value, because "someone said it was worth something"...albeit a long time ago. "Someone" is saying that now about copper, though the ratio of value is significantly smaller per unit than gold and/or silver. While the impetus may be different, and the relationship nowhere near as long, it is similar. I have nowhere near the experience in trading as you, but having sold hard-commodities for 20 years, I DO hear the voices of folks I speak with, and right now, it's copper. The two LCS owners (both of whom have been in business 20 or more years )say the same thing, though they do not see a massive increase in price, anytime soon (i.e. 500% or more). I do think silver vs. copper is apples and oranges, and I do think (in large part) that copper will never hold a candle to silver and gold as a precious metal, but I DON'T think that will stop people from believing it has investment value. Surely...even you couldn't dispute that. Whether or not we believe that "copper will shoot to the moon" (hell...I don't even believe silver will "shoot to the moon") is irrelevant. If people are willing to pay, and continue buying, then it becomes true, de facto. Until that stops, none of what any of us say matters.

Balou, I have been a Copper fan all along. Much to the chagrin of the Gold traders I might add. Whenever I said Copper and they said GOLD!, I would ask how much gold they had in their pocket, and how much gold was used in their house or car. Their reply would be "But it's GOLD!" and I would say, "yeah, so what? What can you do with it?". If it came to it, they would be sitting on the side of the road with a gun in their lap, looking warily sided to side, trying to sell their couple of coins, while I ran my store down the road with copper as one of my many staples for regular customers. Do I think Copper is a good thing to buy for the medium and long term? Of course I do. Would I suggest buying it up at this price, right here and right now? That has much different risk parameters, and I'd have to ask a customer a bunch of questions before I said yes to that one.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

Silvature
19th January 2011, 17:13
You must have looked in the mirror. Good god man, give up the asinine position your are holding onto for justification.

Go buy $137.00 worth of metal for $100.00. No commission, tax or premium. $.05 Nickels at your local bank. 37% instant gain, not remotely risky. Deflation; cash it in. Hyperinflation; match it, it will. And it comes with a FREE! FREE! FREE! 37% gain. No dancing around a pallet or JPM. No indignant paltering like a copperrodge.
Some of us jumped into the industrial metal below $2.00 and remain mostly silent. Up it shall go, but crash like the Hindenburg it will. SHUT UP already.
Your cc name is a forum parasite ,its everywhere. Get a life or something.
No response needed as it will be as valueless as the previous NOISE.



Two more rogers here on this thread!
We're trying to make some money here in reality based thought.
Go to another thread where you have a clue.

ccjoe
19th January 2011, 17:18
You must have looked in the mirror. Good god man, give up the asinine position your are holding onto for justification.

Go buy $137.00 worth of metal for $100.00. No commission, tax or premium. $.05 Nickels at your local bank. 37% instant gain, not remotely risky. Deflation; cash it in. Hyperinflation; match it, it will. And it comes with a FREE! FREE! FREE! 37% gain. No dancing around a pallet or JPM. No indignant paltering like a copperrodge.
Some of us jumped into the industrial metal below $2.00 and remain mostly silent. Up it shall go, but crash like the Hindenburg it will. SHUT UP already.
Your cc name is a forum parasite ,its everywhere. Get a life or something.
No response needed as it will be as valueless as the previous NOISE.
Are you really that stupid Sil that you cannot READ the links and respond.
You are ignorant and cannot respond to links or thoughts.
Don't look in the mirror, as you'd break the frickin thing.
Just because you were a loser and bought copper at the wrong time, don't take out your stupidity on the smart ones who are making a small fortune> like me.
FYI I was stupid with real estate but I don't do a Dr. Phil mental thing blasting those who timed it right.
See a shrink as you've been on my ass for almost as long as roger.
Don't jump into our discussion of trying to make some money silvature.

balou2
19th January 2011, 17:53
Balou, I have been a Copper fan all along. Much to the chagrin of the Gold traders I might add. Whenever I said Copper and they said GOLD!, I would ask how much gold they had in their pocket, and how much gold was used in their house or car. Their reply would be "But it's GOLD!" and I would say, "yeah, so what? What can you do with it?". If it came to it, they would be sitting on the side of the road with a gun in their lap, looking warily sided to side, trying to sell their couple of coins, while I ran my store down the road with copper as one of my many staples for regular customers. Do I think Copper is a good thing to buy for the medium and long term? Of course I do. Would I suggest buying it up at this price, right here and right now? That has much different risk parameters, and I'd have to ask a customer a bunch of questions before I said yes to that one.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

That clarifcation makes absolute cents :)

Thanks.

What is Truth?
19th January 2011, 21:20
That's even worse at $5, the premium are even higher for smaller pieces of Copper. You can buy 1 gram micro chips and never get you money back this century.

If people can't afford $30 for an ounce of silver then it is more likely they would invest their $5.00 in lottery tickets than copper.

valerb
19th January 2011, 23:47
That clarifcation makes absolute cents :)

Thanks.

I may be wrong, but I think your misinterpreting what Matt is saying here.

Keep in mind that when Matt is talking with a customer, it is in regards to taking on a contract for 25,000 pounds as a paper contract or as an out right purchase. In either case, he is talking about Copper at the market price level of $4.38 per pound. Which is the base price of Copper. That is one hell of a lot different than paying well over $6 a pound buying it retail and in volume, versus $12 a pound or more for small quantities. Call it premiums or commission, it's too far out of line with reality. Each of us has a problem with our exit strategy from Silver, rather we know it or not. What is an exit strategy from Copper? Who can you sell it to, when you need some FRN's to pay the rent or simply cash out. The person you bought it from is not going to give you what you paid for the Copper bar. If your lucky, he may be willing to pay the price he is able to purchase it for. How many of us have had to sell our Silver for under the spot price, generic that is? If we have to sell our Silver for spot or less, why would copper sell for any more than the real price of copper. You certainly would not be able to to sell it for the spot price at a scrap yard. I've asked that question before and I don't recall anyone providing an answer. If you bought some retail Copper, you are at the mercy of trying to find another person willing to pay far more than the copper is worth. So that basically leaves everyone to compete on E-Bay with a few thousand other offers.

I can't say Copper is a bad investment at the COMEX level any more than I can say Silver is. However, as far as investing in Copper at the grossly-inflated retail level, all I can say is, it reminds my of that song. "Roll me over, lay me down and do it again"!!!

ccjoe
20th January 2011, 05:51
I may be wrong, but I think your misinterpreting what Matt is saying here.

Keep in mind that when Matt is talking with a customer, it is in regards to taking on a contract for 25,000 pounds as a paper contract or as an out right purchase. In either case, he is talking about Copper at the market price level of $4.38 per pound. Which is the base price of Copper. That is one hell of a lot different than paying well over $6 a pound buying it retail and in volume, versus $12 a pound or more for small quantities. Call it premiums or commission, it's too far out of line with reality. Each of us has a problem with our exit strategy from Silver, rather we know it or not. What is an exit strategy from Copper? Who can you sell it to, when you need some FRN's to pay the rent or simply cash out. The person you bought it from is not going to give you what you paid for the Copper bar. If your lucky, he may be willing to pay the price he is able to purchase it for. How many of us have had to sell our Silver for under the spot price, generic that is? If we have to sell our Silver for spot or less, why would copper sell for any more than the real price of copper. You certainly would not be able to to sell it for the spot price at a scrap yard. I've asked that question before and I don't recall anyone providing an answer. If you bought some retail Copper, you are at the mercy of trying to find another person willing to pay far more than the copper is worth. So that basically leaves everyone to compete on E-Bay with a few thousand other offers.

I can't say Copper is a bad investment at the COMEX level any more than I can say Silver is. However, as far as investing in Copper at the grossly-inflated retail level, all I can say is, it reminds my of that song. "Roll me over, lay me down and do it again"!!!
Absolutely Val and that is why I told him to keep out of physical talk as he doesn't have a clue, as he has NO clue about premiums and what they mean> read MORE IN DEMAND and thus MORE VALUABLE!
As far as your last sentence Roll me over---------IN YOUR DREAMS!:)

valerb
20th January 2011, 06:57
Absolutely Val and that is why I told him to keep out of physical talk as he doesn't have a clue, as he has NO clue about premiums and what they mean> read MORE IN DEMAND and thus MORE VALUABLE!
As far as your last sentence Roll me over---------IN YOUR DREAMS!:)

Damn you Joe. As soon as I saw your message, more of that song came back and I can't for the life of me remember when or where I heard it.

Roll me over, in the clover, roll me over, lay me down and do it again. Kind of reminds me of the stuff Red Buttons use to put on records back in the 50's.

It has a kinky ring to it and it's probably from some Gospel song.

silverheartbone
20th January 2011, 07:01
Damn you Joe. As soon as I saw your message, more of that song came back and I can't for the life of me remember when or where I heard it.

Roll me over, in the clover, roll me over, lay me down and do it again. Kind of reminds me of the stuff Red Buttons use to put on records back in the 50's.

It has a kinky ring to it and it's probably from some Gospel song.

But when communicated between you guys it seems really gay.

valerb
20th January 2011, 07:26
But when communicated between you guys it seems really gay.

The one thing I know for certain, I didn't hear it in a gay bar!! And to further clarify that point, it's because I've never been in a gay bar.

Matthew Shelley
20th January 2011, 10:17
Absolutely Val and that is why I told him to keep out of physical talk as he doesn't have a clue, as he has NO clue about premiums and what they mean> read MORE IN DEMAND and thus MORE VALUABLE!
As far as your last sentence Roll me over---------IN YOUR DREAMS!:)

I suppose I could explain the price ladder of spot- premium/discount- commission, and I suppose I could explain how physical and all forms of paper are tied at the hip by arbitrage.

But then again, I don't have a clue.

Val, thanks, maybe he'll listen to you instead.

Matt

balou2
20th January 2011, 10:23
I may be wrong, but I think your misinterpreting what Matt is saying here.

Keep in mind that when Matt is talking with a customer, it is in regards to taking on a contract for 25,000 pounds as a paper contract or as an out right purchase. In either case, he is talking about Copper at the market price level of $4.38 per pound. Which is the base price of Copper. That is one hell of a lot different than paying well over $6 a pound buying it retail and in volume, versus $12 a pound or more for small quantities. Call it premiums or commission, it's too far out of line with reality. Each of us has a problem with our exit strategy from Silver, rather we know it or not. What is an exit strategy from Copper? Who can you sell it to, when you need some FRN's to pay the rent or simply cash out. The person you bought it from is not going to give you what you paid for the Copper bar. If your lucky, he may be willing to pay the price he is able to purchase it for. How many of us have had to sell our Silver for under the spot price, generic that is? If we have to sell our Silver for spot or less, why would copper sell for any more than the real price of copper. You certainly would not be able to to sell it for the spot price at a scrap yard. I've asked that question before and I don't recall anyone providing an answer. If you bought some retail Copper, you are at the mercy of trying to find another person willing to pay far more than the copper is worth. So that basically leaves everyone to compete on E-Bay with a few thousand other offers.

I can't say Copper is a bad investment at the COMEX level any more than I can say Silver is. However, as far as investing in Copper at the grossly-inflated retail level, all I can say is, it reminds my of that song. "Roll me over, lay me down and do it again"!!!

Nah...I absolutely understand what he is saying. That was why I used the italicized word, cents. I can't argue with anything your're saying. Your prerogative is as strong as mine, and both are right to each of us. I can only state this...in 1989 when my friends thought I was crazy for buying physical silver, and said ALL the same things you're saying, sans the eBay discussion, I looked past them then as well...not that you're a friend ;)

Ardent Listener
20th January 2011, 10:35
I really like copper too. But in my opinon it isn't a "precious" metal. That doesn't mean it can't be a good investment though. I expect copper to really gain if industrial demand for it gains.

TomServo
20th January 2011, 13:17
I think copper will be used less and less as time goes on. Here in Texas, we have a water that eats copper pipe, and the industry is moving towards PEX.
And aren't fiber optics and wireless going to replace communications copper? We'll still have electrical copper, I guess.
Copper boys, any thoughts?

Matthew Shelley
20th January 2011, 13:53
I think copper will be used less and less as time goes on. Here in Texas, we have a water that eats copper pipe, and the industry is moving towards PEX.
And aren't fiber optics and wireless going to replace communications copper? We'll still have electrical copper, I guess.
Copper boys, any thoughts?

The fiber optics and wireless thing has been happening for decades, but it's a slow process. Far different from the example of digital photography sweeping away a major consumptive use of Silver in a couple of years. Copper consumption has been shifting because of it but other uses have been more than taking up the slack.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

AgShaman
20th January 2011, 14:01
I can't trust copper to get involved...except maybe cranking some Steve E. and going down Copperhead road for a couple minutes.

The Chinese have been reported as hoarders for a couple years now.

Hoarders of scrap....but from whom? Where did they get all the scrap they've been hoarding?

JPM....no, I do not feel comfortable following their lead on the Copper play.

In a commodities bull market....taking a gamble with gold and silver seems like enough to me.

Copper? That's just getting a little too cute and complicating things in my opinion....hoarding precious is a good enough workout....getting "semi"....that's asking for back problems.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/5160120/A-Copper-Standard-for-the-worlds-currency-system.html

Crash Silver...Crash Damn You! (wait until tomorrow though)

valerb
21st January 2011, 02:14
I think copper will be used less and less as time goes on. Here in Texas, we have a water that eats copper pipe, and the industry is moving towards PEX.
And aren't fiber optics and wireless going to replace communications copper? We'll still have electrical copper, I guess.
Copper boys, any thoughts?

I bought a new house outside of Houston in 1983 and it was all PVC. I don't know what PEX is, but they were using some kind of flexible plastic pipe here in Atlanta in the late 80's - early 90's, that turned into a nightmare for some homeowners. With the high cost of Copper pipe today, using it for plumbing a new home is pricing itself out of the market and copper's second highest usage is for home plumbing after electrical wiring. Aluminum turned out to be a disaster as a replacement for Copper wiring, but that doesn't mean they won't create a new alloy to replace copper that is both safe and cost effective. You can't kill the number one and two uses for copper and expect it to not lose it's value.

Like Silver, Copper will never have a value of zero, but that doesn't mean that Copper will not retreat to a lower level to remain competitive in the market place.

valerb
21st January 2011, 03:57
Nah...I absolutely understand what he is saying. That was why I used the italicized word, cents. I can't argue with anything you're saying. Your prerogative is as strong as mine, and both are right to each of us. I can only state this...in 1989 when my friends thought I was crazy for buying physical silver, and said ALL the same things you're saying, sans the eBay discussion, I looked past them then as well...not that you're a friend ;)

I didn't enter the market until 1998 and it was still a fools gamble to most people, as Silver had been a dead duck for almost 20 years. The premiums have always been a major issue for me. Generic Silver in volume carried about a 12.5% premium at $4 spot price versus 35% to 50% for ASE's. Today you can buy generic rounds in volume for less than 3% premium and ASE's in the 9% - 15% range. In addition, if you care for 90% coinage, they can be had for the spot price of Silver.

Now when you look at Copper as an investment, your looking at a premium of 50% in volume and 150% - 200% for small quantities on E-bay. To get that 50% premium, your looking at buying several tons of Copper. On the other hand, if you can afford it and you have the storage space, you can buy it close to the spot price, but that's 25,000 pounds of Cooper. It's one thing to buy kilo bars at 150% - 200% premium and something all together different buying one ounce copper rounds and all the way down to 1 gram copper bars. Would you have been willing to pay several hundred percent markup on your $3.50 to $4.00 per ounce Silver rounds back in 1989? I know I would never have bought a single ounce of Silver with the premiums they are paying today for Copper products.

The only thing I can see going in Coppers favor for the future, is Copper being the only investment product available to the general public. That is, a true Silver shortage and runaway prices. With all the available Silver mints and stamping plants and no product to produce, I can see that capacity switching over to Copper in a hurry. Which would be great for the investors as they would see large volumes of Copper coming to the market place with realistic premiums due to competition and finally somewhere to sell their Copper when they are ready. BUT, we have to actually have a Silver shortage before that would take place. Which could be next month, next year or never. Even if there was this massive switch to Copper to replace Silver as an investment product, it would be no guarantee that Copper would actually be increasing in value. It is an industrial product and in great supply around the world waiting to be mined.

I can see Silver and Copper as investment products at the COMEX level, but not at the retail level. With the premiums for Copper being so far out of line with anything we have ever seen in Silver, they simply can not be compared. That's not an opinion, but real world facts.

ccjoe
21st January 2011, 05:42
I didn't enter the market until 1998 and it was still a fools gamble to most people, as Silver had been a dead duck for almost 20 years. The premiums have always been a major issue for me. Generic Silver in volume carried about a 12.5% premium at $4 spot price versus 35% to 50% for ASE's. Today you can buy generic rounds in volume for less than 3% premium and ASE's in the 9% - 15% range. In addition, if you care for 90% coinage, they can be had for the spot price of Silver.

Now when you look at Copper as an investment, your looking at a premium of 50% in volume and 150% - 200% for small quantities on E-bay. To get that 50% premium, your looking at buying several tons of Copper. On the other hand, if you can afford it and you have the storage space, you can buy it close to the spot price, but that's 25,000 pounds of Cooper. It's one thing to buy kilo bars at 150% - 200% premium and something all together different buying one ounce copper rounds and all the way down to 1 gram copper bars. Would you have been willing to pay several hundred percent markup on your $3.50 to $4.00 per ounce Silver rounds back in 1989? I know I would never have bought a single ounce of Silver with the premiums they are paying today for Copper products.

The only thing I can see going in Coppers favor for the future, is Copper being the only investment product available to the general public. That is, a true Silver shortage and runaway prices. With all the available Silver mints and stamping plants and no product to produce, I can see that capacity switching over to Copper in a hurry. Which would be great for the investors as they would see large volumes of Copper coming to the market place with realistic premiums due to competition and finally somewhere to sell their Copper when they are ready. BUT, we have to actually have a Silver shortage before that would take place. Which could be next month, next year or never. Even if there was this massive switch to Copper to replace Silver as an investment product, it would be no guarantee that Copper would actually be increasing in value. It is an industrial product and in great supply around the world waiting to be mined.

I can see Silver and Copper as investment products at the COMEX level, but not at the retail level. With the premiums for Copper being so far out of line with anything we have ever seen in Silver, they simply can not be compared. That's not an opinion, but real world facts.
Great post VAl!
I just love how CHEAP copper is AND the supply/demand matrix.
Personally I also love to clang 2 copper bars together throughout the day when I have the downtime.
It's all good for the PM'S and semi precious copper as this bullshit market downturn IS going to turn suddenly and we're all going to be rich.
FYI MATT----You are brilliant but get carried away with the few things you don't know. The NO CLUE anent you, is relevant to very few things as you seem to have a very good liberal arts background. Just don't nitpick with things that some of us feel strongly about.

duneyman jr
21st January 2011, 06:13
copper is not a pm regardless... can you call a 1972 penny precious. Joe you couldve made a killing in the real estate if you wouldve kept all the copper pipes and wiring out of the houses....there precious

duneyman jr
21st January 2011, 06:28
http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/corbis/DGT065/copper-cable-factory_~MAN040.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rko0gqXFlo
anyone buying copper for spot is crazy...anyone paying above spot is even crazier!!!! good luck the video says it all....

duneyman jr
21st January 2011, 06:37
Why would it make sense to go back in time too 2010 and 2011 and buy copper bars and bullion?..its only 1.50 pound from your local bank... hmmm lets see get for 1/3 of cost or pay full retail or even pay 10x the actual price...well lets be even smarter and tell people its a pm and buy off me for spot..

duneyman jr
21st January 2011, 06:42
if copper ever becomes precious maybe a roll of copper pennies would be 200 bucks... on ebay or maybe you can buy a precious can of pop with it then goto scrap yard and sell your can for rent.

duneyman jr
21st January 2011, 06:44
joe you would be better off selling ur copper stash and hiring some mexicans to sort some pennies..you could pay them in zinc.

TomServo
21st January 2011, 06:44
The fiber optics and wireless thing has been happening for decades, but it's a slow process. Far different from the example of digital photography sweeping away a major consumptive use of Silver in a couple of years. Copper consumption has been shifting because of it but other uses have been more than taking up the slack.

Matthew C. Shelley
Commodity Broker

As always: Trading in futures and options is very high risk investing. You can lose all or more of the money you invest. Only risk capital should be used.

I should have also mentioned that copper pennies have been on death row for quite a few years, and eventually will take the walk. Copper would be easily replaceable in nickels; if the Mint was a business, it would have been by now.
As for photography, that silver was mostly recycled, and silver is used to make millions of digital cameras and isn't recycled. I wonder how that averages out?
People have come up with new uses for copper, but it's niche markets with negligible impact, and not always the only choice. It looks nice on roofs, but that's a luxury.
And of course, the U. S. and Chile have large untapped reserves.

I imagine you're a great investment adviser, Shelley. You say a lot, but not many specifics. :p

TomServo
21st January 2011, 06:51
I bought a new house outside of Houston in 1983 and it was all PVC. I don't know what PEX is, but they were using some kind of flexible plastic pipe here in Atlanta in the late 80's - early 90's, that turned into a nightmare for some homeowners. With the high cost of Copper pipe today, using it for plumbing a new home is pricing itself out of the market and copper's second highest usage is for home plumbing after electrical wiring. Aluminum turned out to be a disaster as a replacement for Copper wiring, but that doesn't mean they won't create a new alloy to replace copper that is both safe and cost effective. You can't kill the number one and two uses for copper and expect it to not lose it's value.

Like Silver, Copper will never have a value of zero, but that doesn't mean that Copper will not retreat to a lower level to remain competitive in the market place.

PEX is great stuff. Even This Old House is pushing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethylene#Uses

silverheartbone
21st January 2011, 07:01
I didn't enter the market until 1998 and it was still a fools gamble to most people, as Silver had been a dead duck for almost 20 years. The premiums have always been a major issue for me. Generic Silver in volume carried about a 12.5% premium at $4 spot price versus 35% to 50% for ASE's. Today you can buy generic rounds in volume for less than 3% premium and ASE's in the 9% - 15% range. In addition, if you care for 90% coinage, they can be had for the spot price of Silver.

Now when you look at Copper as an investment, your looking at a premium of 50% in volume and 150% - 200% for small quantities on E-bay. To get that 50% premium, your looking at buying several tons of Copper. On the other hand, if you can afford it and you have the storage space, you can buy it close to the spot price, but that's 25,000 pounds of Cooper. It's one thing to buy kilo bars at 150% - 200% premium and something all together different buying one ounce copper rounds and all the way down to 1 gram copper bars. Would you have been willing to pay several hundred percent markup on your $3.50 to $4.00 per ounce Silver rounds back in 1989? I know I would never have bought a single ounce of Silver with the premiums they are paying today for Copper products.

The only thing I can see going in Coppers favor for the future, is Copper being the only investment product available to the general public. That is, a true Silver shortage and runaway prices. With all the available Silver mints and stamping plants and no product to produce, I can see that capacity switching over to Copper in a hurry. Which would be great for the investors as they would see large volumes of Copper coming to the market place with realistic premiums due to competition and finally somewhere to sell their Copper when they are ready. BUT, we have to actually have a Silver shortage before that would take place. Which could be next month, next year or never. Even if there was this massive switch to Copper to replace Silver as an investment product, it would be no guarantee that Copper would actually be increasing in value. It is an industrial product and in great supply around the world waiting to be mined.

I can see Silver and Copper as investment products at the COMEX level, but not at the retail level. With the premiums for Copper being so far out of line with anything we have ever seen in Silver, they simply can not be compared. That's not an opinion, but real world facts.

That makes good sense to me old man. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon14.gif Now back to silver.