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View Full Version : do you have to pay capitol gains on sale of silver



augernaut
20th October 2008, 06:22
or can you get around it:confused:

PSUDave
20th October 2008, 15:30
or can you get around it:confused:

Cash deals ;)

research24
20th October 2008, 19:37
Silly boy, that's why we buy silver!!! Well, at least one reason.

LETMYSILVERGO
20th October 2008, 20:17
One Should Be Careful Asking Law Braking Questions.

cdavport
20th October 2008, 20:37
I'm sure augernaut meant any "legal way" you can get around capital gains.;)

LETMYSILVERGO
20th October 2008, 20:38
You're Right. What Was I Thinking????

main1event
20th October 2008, 21:39
From what I've read silver is capitol gains free, unless you are dealing with comex deliverable.

LETMYSILVERGO
20th October 2008, 21:51
well, hot--digity--dog!!!

cdavport
20th October 2008, 22:00
Gold, silver, gems, stamps, coins, etc., are capital assets except when they are held for sale by a dealer. Any gain or loss from their sale or exchange generally is a capital gain or loss. If you are a dealer, the amount received from the sale is ordinary business income.

chux03
20th October 2008, 22:02
Let's say you're a rich guy and you invest $20k in silver. And the per ounce price was say $11 per ounce. You held the aforementioned silver for YEEEAAARRRS and in our hypothetical story you finally hit the big time and sell your silver for $33 per ounce realizing a PROFIT of 200% over all those YEEEAAARRRS.
Now, the question is whether you'll owe any taxes. As the 200% is PURE PROFIT, OF COURSE you owe income taxes on that part of the deal. Now whether you claim that deal on your taxes is another story. BUT....it's definitely income and you definitely made it and you definitely OWE IT. But nobody around here cares a rat's ass in Hell or Washington DC whether you forgot about that or somehow that just slipped from your mind accidentally on purpose.
There's no law breakers around here, you included. Just ask...we'll tell ya :D
The only tax that I know is waived by our GRACIOUS state for precious metals is the Washington state sales tax. There is no state sales tax here on PM's. Federally, those blood suckers want all of everything, what's left of your ass included.

main1event
20th October 2008, 22:16
Why sell all of it? There is no record of your cost basis as their is in stocks. If you buy a piece of furniture and sell it for a loss a few years later nobody knows where that money came from do they? Nobody is tracking your silver. Sell it off piece by piece instead of a large sum and you'll be fine.

One_of_Many
20th October 2008, 22:25
The answer to your question is yes. For the most part, everything you own and use for personal purposes, pleasure, or investment is a capital asset. Some examples are:

* Stocks or bonds held in your personal account,
* A house owned and used by you and your family,
* Household furnishings,
* A car used for pleasure or commuting,
* Coin or stamp collections,
* Gems and jewelry, and
* Gold, silver, or any other metal.

Any property you own is a capital asset, except the following noncapital assets.

1. Property held mainly for sale to customers or property that will physically become a part of the merchandise that is for sale to customers.
2. Depreciable property used in your trade or business, even if fully depreciated.
3. Real property used in your trade or business.
4. A copyright, a literary, musical, or artistic composition, a letter or memorandum, or similar property—
A. Created by your personal efforts,
B. Prepared or produced for you (in the case of a letter, memorandum, or similar property), or
C. Acquired under circumstances (for example, by gift) entitling you to the basis of the person who created the property or for whom it was prepared or produced.
For an exception to this rule, see Capital Asset Treatment for Self-Created Musical Works later.
5. Accounts or notes receivable acquired in the ordinary course of a trade or business for services rendered or from the sale of property described in (1).
6. U.S. Government publications that you received from the government for free or for less than the normal sales price, or that you acquired under circumstances entitling you to the basis of someone who received the publications for free or for less than the normal sales price.
7. Certain commodities derivative financial instruments held by commodities derivatives dealers.
8. Hedging transactions, but only if the transaction is clearly identified as a hedging transaction before the close of the day on which it was acquired, originated, or entered into.
9. Supplies of a type you regularly use or consume in the ordinary course of your trade or business.

Gold, silver, stamps, coins, gems, etc:

These are capital assets except when they are held for sale by a dealer. Any gain or loss you have from their sale or trade generally is a capital gain or loss. Gold, silver, platinum, and palladium investment products are not subject to the same capital gains tax treatment as equities like mutual funds. Instead, they are treated as collectables and taxed at a rate of 28 percent.The rate for equities and mutual funds is 15 percent. Currently precious metal bullion investment products are taxed at the disadvantaged rate of 28 percent.

Those seeking to invest in gold, silver and other precious metals will receive treatment equitable with other investors under legislation proposed by Idaho Sen. Mike Crapo and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Crapo and Reid are sponsoring the Fair Treatment for Precious Metals Investment Act, which places capital gains taxes on metals more in line with other investments.

"These are not collectables; they are liquid investment products with round-the-clock pricing structures and are traded on major exchanges all over the world. "We have a strong precious metals industry in Idaho, and treating these precious metals products as the kind of investment products they are will spur and strengthen the markets for these products," Crapo added.

I have no idea what the current status of this legislation is at this time.

LETMYSILVERGO
20th October 2008, 23:48
How 'bout My 7th Grade Ant Farm, After 45 Years, They Finally Got A Crop. Cash Crop Of Ganga, They Only Produced On Tiny Bud, But Hey, They Are Ants.

And Now It Is Gonna Cost Me!!

5-9's
21st October 2008, 00:33
I have no idea what the current status of this legislation is at this time.

I seriously doubt anything like that will ever get passed in a million years. Just look at the amount of Wall Street campaign contributions, pffft.

valerb
21st October 2008, 01:05
If there ever is a collapse of the dollar and the wealthy go all in on PM's, you can bet there will be changes in the capital gains tax on PM's at or before that time. For their own sake, they will probably justify the capital gains at an even lower rate than stocks or possibly eliminate it altogether for the good of the country or the benefit of our national interest.

TechGnosis
21st October 2008, 01:09
So if you buy , say, 100 oz @$20 and later you buy 100 oz @$10, even though for your own purposes, you have 200 oz @15, when you come to sell 100 oz later, you can declare it as having been purchased at $20?

Does law require you to keep receipts for all purchases? And if it's ten years later and you can't find any receipt?

TechGnosis
21st October 2008, 02:05
Of course, all these questions may well be moot. The ability of the American public to be blind is legendary, but surely it cannot be that far in the future that the public responds to the massive ripoffs and spreading poverty through tax revolt at the very least. After all, as Aaron Russo and several lawsuits have definitively demonstrated, the income tax is completely unconstitutional. In almost any possible apocalyptic scenario, enforcement agencies are going to be a lot too busy with more pressing problems to be able to enforce non-existent laws for the IRS. If the American people have not completely rejected the legitimacy of the Fed and its spawn (fractional reserve banking and the income tax) by that time, then one will only be able to say of them, quoting the bandit leader in Magnificent Seven, "If God did not want them sheared, he would not have made them sheep."

One_of_Many
21st October 2008, 02:23
So if you buy , say, 100 oz @$20 and later you buy 100 oz @$10, even though for your own purposes, you have 200 oz @15, when you come to sell 100 oz later, you can declare it as having been purchased at $20?

Does law require you to keep receipts for all purchases? And if it's ten years later and you can't find any receipt?

Hmm.. Are you selling your 100oz of 20$ silver or your 100oz of 10$ or at the ave of 15? Thats a darn good question actually. I will have to ask my accountant to answer that one for me. I can answer a little about receipts though.

No receipts are required to be given by a dealer for the purchase or sale of pm's unless the transaction exceeds 10,000$. Over 10k and the dealer is required to report it. This applies to all transactions occuring during a calandar year. Meaning if you purchased 5k this month in cash and 6k next month in cash, or check, or whatever, for a total of 11k in one calander year, the dearler is suposed to report it as well. Most don't in my experience. They dont even ask your name when you pay cash, let alone fill out any forms. :)

You always have the option of requesting a receipt though, which is a good idea. It makes your record keeping easier and covers your ass in the event you have to but heads with the KGB,,,er, i mean the IRS.

Say you bought 100oz for 20$ and got a receipt. Today you sold it for 10$ and got a receipt. You have had a capital loss of 1000$ and can take a deduction on your taxes. KGB might want to see proof of your loss. No problem. You got receipts. Say you sold for 30$ and made 1000$. You have a gain of 1000$ and they want 280$ in taxes. You pay them cos your honest and love amerika. They probably wont bother to ask for the receipt then but you got one.

Say you sold for 30$ and lost all your recipts and paid cash in the first place and just walked off with your 1000 dollar profit whistling a happy tune and kept your mouth shut and... well..thats just silly, no ones gonna do that

TechGnosis
21st October 2008, 03:10
Interesting. In Japan, you can purchase up to 2 million yen (about $20,000) without identifying yourself. Over that and you have to give info, supposedly because of new laws aimed at curbing terrorist money-laundering, which is apparently a prerogative of legitimate businesses only.

[quote=You always have the option of requesting a receipt though, which is a good idea. It makes your record keeping easier and covers your ass in the event you have to but heads with the KGB,,,er, i mean the IRS.

Say you bought 100oz for 20$ and got a receipt. Today you sold it for 10$ and got a receipt. You have had a capital loss of 1000$ and can take a deduction on your taxes. KGB might want to see proof of your loss. No problem. You got receipts. Say you sold for 30$ and made 1000$. You have a gain of 1000$ and they want 280$ in taxes. You pay them cos your honest and love amerika. They probably wont bother to ask for the receipt then but you got one.

Yes, the receipt would be good to have as an option.

[quote=Say you sold for 30$ and lost all your recipts and paid cash in the first place and just walked off with your 1000 dollar profit whistling a happy tune and kept your mouth shut and... well..thats just silly, no ones gonna do that[/quote]

OF course not; one can instead expect that people will line up to turn in their precious metals at gov't-determined prices to support The War Effort, wherever it happens to be aimed at the time.

Trvlr45
21st October 2008, 03:44
enforcement agencies are going to be a lot too busy with more pressing problems to be able to enforce non-existent laws for the IRS.

Hello Tech,

No they won't be too busy. The economy is falling apart as we speak and the IRS is auditing everyone and anyone to cover the losses of the Fed. They just hired a huge amount of traitors to help them steal over the last couple of years. I was one of their victims and I am NOT rich or even "comforatable". I'm a truck driver and I don't even own my own business. They are already going after everyone.

When things get really bad the central bank will sick the Gestapo on everyone. You go try and sell your silver at a reputable dealer and there will be a cop or the IRS standing there at the door.

They will do what they do now. If you don''t tell them what you paid and can prove it with a receipt they will tell YOU what you paid for it just as they do if you have deductions and refuse to show your records under the 5th ammendment.

They just go by what your employer reported to them on you when they audit an emplyee. Illegally, I might add, if you fill out "exempt" on your W-4 as I did for eleven years. Don't get me wrong, I paid for protection EVERY year by April 15th after going to an accountant and finding out what I owed after taking legal deductions. They just wanted more. Unfortunately, every accouintant is different and the IRS changes what you can deduct all the time so it's a crap shoot.

Filling out your W-4 "exempt" does NOT reliquish your 5th ammendment rights therefore your employer cannot send ANY info to the IRS but they do it anyway due to fear and intimidation. THAT is what the W-4 was created for in the first place allowing you to VOLUNTARILY pay income tax on your labor. Your rights used to be written on the W-4 years ago. Now, decades later they don't print that on the W-4 anymore and have everyone believing they actually OWE and income tax on their labor which is a direct violation of the constitution. Research USA vs. Cryer.

The IRS lost a case about a year or so ago based on that LEGAL argument down in Louisiana. They get everyone in court because the average person can't afford $20,000 for a lawyer and the judges rig the proceedings just as they did in New Hampshire about a year ago and they TRIED to do with Cryer. He was a seasoned trial lawyer and had one of the best constitutional lawyers defending him. A combination of experience the vast majority of us don't have. Just the way they want it. He was also assisted by the "We the People Foundation" who is sueing the IRS because they won't provide the law that states we have to pay INCOME tax which is derived from PROFIT not labor. They won't provide it because it doesn't exist.

There are NO laws requiring an emplyeee OR a private owner of a business to file or pay taxes on their labor. They won't start obeying the constitution with silver either. Why do you think they give all the tax breaks to corporations? Once you're a corporation you aren't PRIVATE anymore and you are under control of government but without the tax breaks you can't compete. That is how I understand it. I'm not an accountant or a tax lawyer and if there is someone here that is then please tell me I'm wrong. I won't mind.

The only argument you can possibly have is that your silver is not a capital gain because an illegal fiat currency went DOWN in value. Your silver, which is real legal tender didn't go up.

Since we have a kangaroo court system in this country and there is no justice system anymore (Look at the O.J. trial or the most recent Irwin Schiff trial) the judge will rig the proceedings in favor of the Gestapo and after spending all the money on a lawyer who also works for the system you will pay whatever capital gains tax they want at the time anyway.

They don't need any laws to do what they do. Just fear and intimidation. The Gestapo has the courts AND most of the lawyers and accountants on their side. If the law was important we wouldn't have a Federal Reserve or an IRS to begin with.

Barter is the best way to spend your silver when the balloon goes up. Not touching FRN's in the transaction is the only hope you will have to avoid a massive tax and I'm sure they have a plan for that as well.

I have NO doubt that if PM's take center stage in the economy there will be legislation passed for HEAVY capital gains taxes which, of course, are also unconstitutional as well. You have the RIGHT to own property, not rent it and without a fiat currency and central bank manipulation of our economy we wouldn't have property making these wild swings in value in the first place. You're paycheck is YOUR private property just as your silver is.

Just my two cents.

TechGnosis
21st October 2008, 05:04
That bad, is it? I've been quite curious about how the various court cases that determined the income tax not to be binding were playing out on the larger scale. So each person has to undertake an expensive lawsuit to get the facts realised? The recent rulings don't serve as sufficient precedent?

When I left the US in 1961 for England, one of the thoughts uppermost in my mind was that I didn't want to live in a fascist country. At the time I didn't know that fascism was the alliance of business and government, i.e. corporatism, and understood it more as authoritarian totalitarianism, and had already come to see America as inimical to independent thought. I had gone to prep school with the children of the east coast establishment (I knew guys like George Bush at school, and they were typically the ones who would be stepping into their fathers' shoes. In fact, in the class just behind me were both John Kerry and Robert Mueller, neither of them the brightest bulbs on the tree...), and had realised that the country was run by second and third rate minds in control of the money, and that the notion of it being a democracy was nonsense.

It certainly seems to have continued down that path. I can't imagine going back without at some point becoming so outraged by one of the pigheaded minions you describe that I would do something extreme. I'm not a violent person, but I sometimes wonder why people there don't start distributing lists of the actual addresses of the policemen, IRA agents, or other such who carry out these atrocities, such as handcuffing children, evicting 80 year-olds, etc. I somehow imagine that when the revolution comes, it may take this form, with the low-level agents learning to live in fear of their properties or lives, rather than any massive storming of the Winter Palace with pitchforks and burning brands, so to speak...