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gottago
4th December 2010, 17:41
Well Joe,
It seems as though you have some good company, however I would be careful or you may get burned...



JP Morgan revealed as mystery trader that bought 1bn-worth of copper on LME


The American investment bank JP Morgan is the mystery trader that grabbed more than half the copper on the London Metal Exchange, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

The $1.5bn (1bn) trade was described in the LME's daily update as "between 50pc and 80pc" of the 350,000 tonnes in reserves. This pushed up the price for the immediate delivery of copper to $8,700 its highest level since the financial crisis in October 2008.

A high premium on the spot copper price normally reflects fear of a shortage of the metal, which is in hot demand across the world as a vital component in a mass of products from electrical gadgets to wiring.

A source close to the situation said that JP Morgan had bought the copper contracts, adding that amount is closer to the "lower portion of the range" disclosed by the LME.


Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/8180304/JP-Morgan-revealed-as-mystery-trader-that-bought-1bn-worth-of-copper-on-LME.html

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silverheartbone
4th December 2010, 18:15
I'm just thinking the next logical thought. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

orlando_wrx
4th December 2010, 19:17
maybe use silver to hedge copper short?

ccjoe
4th December 2010, 20:09
maybe use silver to hedge copper short?
I tried the opposite and of course got creamed shorting the silver paper market:(

ccjoe
4th December 2010, 20:13
Well Joe,
It seems as though you have some good company, however I would be careful or you may get burned...



[B]JP Morgan revealed as mystery trader that bought 1bn-worth of copper on LME[/B


I bought the physical as in over 4 tons so I'm in the driver's @13 bucks a key.
Let JP get creamed in the paper.
I do very limited futures and options trading> fun money> good thing as I have NOT been very successful there on W. Monroe.


The American investment bank JP Morgan is the mystery trader that grabbed more than half the copper on the London Metal Exchange, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

The $1.5bn (1bn) trade was described in the LME's daily update as "between 50pc and 80pc" of the 350,000 tonnes in reserves. This pushed up the price for the immediate delivery of copper to $8,700 – its highest level since the financial crisis in October 2008.

A high premium on the spot copper price normally reflects fear of a shortage of the metal, which is in hot demand across the world as a vital component in a mass of products from electrical gadgets to wiring.

A source close to the situation said that JP Morgan had bought the copper contracts, adding that amount is closer to the "lower portion of the range" disclosed by the LME.


Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/8180304/JP-Morgan-revealed-as-mystery-trader-that-bought-1bn-worth-of-copper-on-LME.html

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The core of my investment strategy is ALWAYS physical possession in a high tech security facility. I was there today with the fam shipping out the 2 mb's of ase's and clearing out the area to make room for 3750 keys of cu.

ccjoe
4th December 2010, 20:15
I'm just thinking the next logical thought. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif

I will sell when it goes up 25 fold to 100 lb as I think it will in fairly short order 3-5 years.
It is not liquid NOW as si is and is too bulky to trade often as I do with si.

orlando_wrx
4th December 2010, 20:37
Maybe we should begin tracking the Si/Cu ratio?

ccjoe
4th December 2010, 20:57
Maybe we should begin tracking the Si/Cu ratio?

We are at goldismoney and it's an incredible 126/1!!
When copper literally began the Bronze Age in 3500 B.C.and for thousands of years the ag/cu ratio was 15/1 much like the gsr has almost always been 15/1.
How I missed this is how I missed the real estate> listened to the MSM and did not spend 18 hrs a day studying this stuff like I do now.
CU WILL be 100 lb within a year or 2. PERIOD!

orlando_wrx
4th December 2010, 21:29
Cool, thanks for the lesson. I'll study up! However, if Ag/Cu approaches historic I think that would be the best time to trade into silver. I think silver may eventually push gold aside and be victorious!

valerb
5th December 2010, 05:41
:p
We are at goldismoney and it's an incredible 126/1!!
When copper literally began the Bronze Age in 3500 B.C.and for thousands of years the ag/cu ratio was 15/1 much like the gsr has almost always been 15/1.
How I missed this is how I missed the real estate> listened to the MSM and did not spend 18 hrs a day studying this stuff like I do now.
CU WILL be 100 lb within a year or 2. PERIOD!

There is a strong reason for that and it's only going to become even further apart, not closer. It's called PLASTIC. Copper has too much competition to take it's place and copper is in abundance, Silver is not and can not be easily replaced. We might see some gains in copper in that ratio, if Silver takes a hit and it could drop well below 100 to 1. On the other hand, Copper could also take a hit and drop to $3 in a hurry and the ratio could jump to 160 to 1 without Silver moving at all.

Back to the usage, copper is an industrial metal with a lot of competition and can be replaced if it's cost rise. Short of hyper-inflation, we will never see $100 Copper prices, unless they find some new use for Copper that will make it revolutionary and in greater demand than it can be mined. Something like turning copper into a super fuel that would replace gasoline, run cheaper and last longer. At the same time, all the other uses for Copper would be replaced by other metals, bi-metals and numerous types of plastic. At $10 a pound, I think copper would no longer be used for plumbing as it would be far too expensive and it would free up one hell of a lot of copper, which would drive the price back down. The only reason Copper is where it's at today is because of a serious manipulation in London and that has only driven Copper up to $4 a pound.

But I'd like to be fair about this and make a wager. If Copper reaches $100 a pound without hyper-inflation, you WIN. If Silver reaches a 300 to 1 ratio over Copper, I WIN! If Copper never reaches $100 and Silver never reaches a ratio of 300 to 1 or more, it's a draw.

The wager is, we'll meet in Manhattan and the winner gets two hours to draw a crowd and then the loser has to kiss the winners ass in Macy's department store window. Pucker up CChttp://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon7.pnghttp://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon7.pnghttp://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon7.png

ccjoe
5th December 2010, 05:52
1.3 billion Chinese; 1.1 billion Indians; hundreds of millions of nouveau middle class from both countries; hundreds of millions of newly purchased cars from them; 100 lbs of cu in every car= cu @ 100 a lb
I will wait till the Thanksgiving Day parade to collect as I like the cameras to collect:)

orlando_wrx
5th December 2010, 06:23
Well, then...aluminum is the next logical step after copper. Of course if things get dicey, lead would be before aluminum. Think I'll just keep stacking silver, as I believe it to be THE rocket, and im just a simple working man so i cant pile up all kinds of metal at home.

valerb
5th December 2010, 06:54
1.3 billion Chinese; 1.1 billion Indians; hundreds of millions of nouveau middle class from both countries; hundreds of millions of newly purchased cars from them; 100 lbs of cu in every car= cu @ 100 a lb



Think about that statement and do the math: 100 X $100 = $10,000 in raw material, which will probably equal $30,000 to $50,000 in finished products and I'm not talking about the whole car, just the items using copper. We won't be able to afford a new car at those prices, let alone two an a half billion people in Asia. Remember that is $10,000 in raw material, which has to go through numerous steps to produce the copper in a usable form that will go into making the parts for these cars. It's not simply adding $10,000 to the cost of producing a car, it's the end cost and mark up. If someone produces a product for $20 today in actual labor and material. they will probably sell it for at least double that cost if not triple. So there markup is $20 to $40. If it cost them $85 dollars to produce the same part, they are still going to double or triple that price. They will not simply settle for the old $20 to $40 markup. So your not simply adding the additional cost of material, but the manufactures increased profits as well.

Based on some of the tinker toy cars I see on the highways in Europe, I can imagine the quality and lack of safety standards they probably have in Asia. Which can make cars much more affordable and well under $10,000, assuming they are made locally. So you cut out all of the extra goodies we have in our cars here and in most of the world. No power seats, no power windows, no wires running all over the place checking if seat belts are fastened, you are still going to end up with at least 25 or 30 pounds of Copper in each car. Which would end up being more than a car cost to produce today. Then you are not using 100 pounds of copper per each one of the 2.5 billion people.

Now if no one can afford cars at these prices and Cooper has been replaced in most other application in Coppers rise to fame and glory. How would Copper ever reach this enormous value to begin with?

You better hold off on calling the press!!!

orlando_wrx
5th December 2010, 07:12
Regardless of the dollar values, you're right that WE won't be able to afford new cars. The mountain of FedRes (dollar system) debt is comming home to roost. Looking at warehouse supply levels of various metals it almost looks like the western world has been cut-off from supply. The endgame of humongous trade deficit running years and years on end.

valerb
5th December 2010, 07:27
Regardless of the dollar values, you're right that WE won't be able to afford new cars. The mountain of FedRes (dollar system) debt is comming home to roost. Looking at warehouse supply levels of various metals it almost looks like the western world has been cut-off from supply. The endgame of humongous trade deficit running years and years on end.


I think I need to re-qualify that statement about "we" not being able to afford a new car. We Silver stacker's will of course be able to buy them, because we will all be rich, maybe!

silverheartbone
5th December 2010, 08:08
:p

There is a strong reason for that and it's only going to become even further apart, not closer. It's called PLASTIC. Copper has too much competition to take it's place and copper is in abundance, Silver is not and can not be easily replaced. We might see some gains in copper in that ratio, if Silver takes a hit and it could drop well below 100 to 1. On the other hand, Copper could also take a hit and drop to $3 in a hurry and the ratio could jump to 160 to 1 without Silver moving at all.

Back to the usage, copper is an industrial metal with a lot of competition and can be replaced if it's cost rise. Short of hyper-inflation, we will never see $100 Copper prices, unless they find some new use for Copper that will make it revolutionary and in greater demand than it can be mined. Something like turning copper into a super fuel that would replace gasoline, run cheaper and last longer. At the same time, all the other uses for Copper would be replaced by other metals, bi-metals and numerous types of plastic. At $10 a pound, I think copper would no longer be used for plumbing as it would be far too expensive and it would free up one hell of a lot of copper, which would drive the price back down. The only reason Copper is where it's at today is because of a serious manipulation in London and that has only driven Copper up to $4 a pound.

But I'd like to be fair about this and make a wager. If Copper reaches $100 a pound without hyper-inflation, you WIN. If Silver reaches a 300 to 1 ratio over Copper, I WIN! If Copper never reaches $100 and Silver never reaches a ratio of 300 to 1 or more, it's a draw.

The wager is, we'll meet in Manhattan and the winner gets two hours to draw a crowd and then the loser has to kiss the winners ass in Macy's department store window. Pucker up CChttp://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon7.pnghttp://forums.silverseek.com/images/icons/icon7.png

Although I doubt that you'd lose this bet,
you should know that there are very few large domesticated animals anywhere in Massachusetts.
So if you lose, you'd probably have to kiss a substitute. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

valerb
5th December 2010, 09:37
Although I doubt that you'd lose this bet,
you should know that there are very few large domesticated animals anywhere in Massachusetts.
So if you lose, you'd probably have to kiss a substitute. http://forums.silverseek.com/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

CC doesn't live in Massachusetts, he lives in Wonderland.

ccjoe
5th December 2010, 09:47
Think about that statement and do the math: 100 X $100 = $10,000 in raw material, which will probably equal $30,000 to $50,000 in finished products and I'm not talking about the whole car, just the items using copper. We won't be able to afford a new car at those prices, let alone two an a half billion people in Asia. Remember that is $10,000 in raw material, which has to go through numerous steps to produce the copper in a usable form that will go into making the parts for these cars. It's not simply adding $10,000 to the cost of producing a car, it's the end cost and mark up. If someone produces a product for $20 today in actual labor and material. they will probably sell it for at least double that cost if not triple. So there markup is $20 to $40. If it cost them $85 dollars to produce the same part, they are still going to double or triple that price. They will not simply settle for the old $20 to $40 markup. So your not simply adding the additional cost of material, but the manufactures increased profits as well.

Based on some of the tinker toy cars I see on the highways in Europe, I can imagine the quality and lack of safety standards they probably have in Asia. Which can make cars much more affordable and well under $10,000, assuming they are made locally. So you cut out all of the extra goodies we have in our cars here and in most of the world. No power seats, no power windows, no wires running all over the place checking if seat belts are fastened, you are still going to end up with at least 25 or 30 pounds of Copper in each car. Which would end up being more than a car cost to produce today. Then you are not using 100 pounds of copper per each one of the 2.5 billion people.

Now if no one can afford cars at these prices and Cooper has been replaced in most other application in Coppers rise to fame and glory. How would Copper ever reach this enormous value to begin with?

You better hold off on calling the press!!!
I just point to PD to disprove your ALMOST rational thought process. They will obviously have to replace some of the copper in the cars to attain affordability but I left out the myriad other utilitarian uses of copper. NOT as many as silver but........
Just saying that 4 bucks a lb. is ludicrous as JPM just bet. They copied me as my wife tells me with tongue in cheek.

kvanar
5th December 2010, 10:19
To be honest I didn't think this topic was in the right folder. But after this bit of news of jp morgan being the mystery buyer, it's really got my interest. Yippee! A new thing for me to research!

valerb
5th December 2010, 12:17
I just point to PD to disprove your ALMOST rational thought process. They will obviously have to replace some of the copper in the cars to attain affordability but I left out the myriad other utilitarian uses of copper. NOT as many as silver but........
Just saying that 4 bucks a lb. is ludicrous as JPM just bet. They copied me as my wife tells me with tongue in cheek.


Speaking of Cheek, please start using chap stick as Silver can go on a terror at any time and I don't want you to be using any dried up crusty old lips on my cheeks, especially if cameras are going to be involved. You had to call the press didn't you!!!!
I do agree that $4 a pound seems ludicrous, not only for Copper but to bring any metal to market for that price, but hey, I'm not in the metal producing business.

SilverHawk
6th December 2010, 02:22
Looks like a good one to bump

gottago
6th December 2010, 07:58
It seems like someone else is pushing this copper mania!!!




Copper: Part I The new currency
ZeroHedge


I don’t know if you have noticed what I have, but lately it appears that people are using Copper as a poor mans currency. I started to notice during the crash of 2008, that copper was being sold in a .999 pure bullion. The photo attached is for a single troy oz of “Fine Copper”. The list price for this copper, as is, was 12 dollars. Think about that for a moment.

Copper sells for about $4 per pound in the futures market. The contract size is for 25,000 pounds, and it costs $250 dollars per penny when quoting copper, the December forward month is currently quoted at 400.60 pennies, for a total cash cost of $100,150 per contract.

I dont know about you, but I would love to have a business where my future cost of inventory was 27 cents per oz, and after some remarketing costs, I am able to charge $10 to $12 per oz.

Check out this google link to Copper Bullion for sale. It’s not just the 1 oz bars, people are now selling copper bullion in kilo bars, coins, rounds and pretty much anything else they can make it look like a legitimate currency.

The ironic aspect to this, is that if the rumored one world currency is deployed, and it has in it, physical commodities like copper, you can expect an increase in crime to break out. If people started to look up at power-lines and instead of seeing a few pennies per pound in realized value at a junk shop, instead becomes thousands of future World Dollars, we will have problems.

Utilities, which are already heading underground will have to be moved there even quicker, and the deployment of new communications like WiMax will be necessary. The era of cell phones, and 4G internet, will end the need for copper to be installed in homes going forward. The Net will always be there, and why leave your phone at home wired to the desk?

In simple terms, we are close to turning a point in the technology curve, where the value of the copper in the old POTS (plain old telephone system) is more valuable torn out of the walls, than left in them. Consider that for a moment. Now, think about how easily accessible to anyone this stuff is. Savaging will greatly outweight the cost of trying to find job’s for our chronically unemployed.

The streets are currently lined with money hanging from wood poles. When you think about buried fiber optics, WiMax and Cell phones, the question becomes why do we have all of this copper in the walls, buried under the yard, etc.

Ironically, copper is already one of the most owned metals, due to its usage in home building. It could be argued that it is already distributed to the masses, and as such could be considered a currency already.

A buyer of an abandoned house in today’s economy *already* has to make sure that it still has its copper in the walls. It takes very little effort in the big picture, to strip out hundreds or thousands of pounds of copper from an abandoned home or factory.

If Copper becomes part of the next global currency, the world will have a new crime wave. The only difference, is that it will be based on a physical commodity changing hands, or at least represented in the exchange. While there is not enough Gold in the world, or Silver in the world to act as the physical basis of a currency, there is enough Copper.

Is that enough of a reason to develop it into an international currency? What say you?

Disclosure: Jack Barnes has no exposure to Copper, or any companies listed in this article. This disclosure and others are available at JackHBarnes.com


http://www.zerohedge.com/article/copper-part-i-new-currency



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ccjoe
6th December 2010, 09:14
People have been stealing copper esp at construction sites for years. One of the myriad reasons I feel stupid for not seeing this until 168 hours ago.
At least I beat JP to the punch:)

kvanar
6th December 2010, 22:03
bump to get idiot's posts off front page