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TechGnosis
19th September 2008, 21:47
Am I correct in thinking that the recent moves in the US and UK to ban short-selling apply only to financial stocks, and not to precious metals or other commodities?

Tribal Warrior
20th September 2008, 00:44
That's how I took it. They don't want Gold/Silver to sky rocket. Just the paper money institutions.

balou2
20th September 2008, 01:52
No...I believe it is a blanket order. Naked shorting for a PM fund is no different than the naked shorting of a financial fund. The only difference is what the paper reads. Naked is, as naked does.

TechGnosis
20th September 2008, 02:22
After that last reply, there now remain two questions rather than one.

1. Does the shortselling ban apply to PM or not?
2. Is the ban only on Naked short selling, not on short-selling in general?

Kelly
20th September 2008, 04:12
Based on Friday's gold and silver charts, I'm going to agree with Balou.

I saw absolutely no sign of the big short (straight down) activity in either chart, and I watched it like a hawk. The SEC put the ban in place and the SEC is also mandated to watch the commodities market as much as over-the-counter stocks. Based on todays action, it looks like the ban effected PMs too.

TechGnosis
20th September 2008, 04:20
Yeah, I noticed that, although generally the silver price has dipped every time the market has rallied with another "Everything Will Be O.K." announcement, it seems to be rising today, perhaps reflecting the fact that many do not believe in fiat salvation...

Kelly
20th September 2008, 04:34
And it was a slow, STEADY rise with no wild fluctuations. That's the best sign I've seen in months that the shorts have fled the scene. And I was certainly gratified to see that nice gain of 69 cents. It wasn't earth-shaking compared to what happened a couple of days ago, but still, it was a good gain.

And halleluia! The London market banned shorts too. I was really afraid that if the short sellers couldn't play their game here, they'd move over to the London market. This ban pretty much went into effect on all the world's major exchanges. So you can count on it, the Bank of International Settlements is issuing orders around the world.

digger
20th September 2008, 08:58
According to news articles the ban only applies to 799stocks.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122181688114256411.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
http://www.startribune.com/business/28676594.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsX (http://www.startribune.com/business/28676594.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4OW3ckUiD3a Pc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsX)

The SEC temporarily banned naked shorting of 19 financial companies in July. On Wednesday, it restricted the practice but did not ban it outright. Some money managers have called for the SEC to prohibit naked shorting.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.short20sep20,0,3791055.story

TechGnosis
20th September 2008, 09:48
[quote=digger;11909]According to news articles the ban only applies to 799stocks.

e/SB122181688114256411.html?mod=googlenews_wsj (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122181688114256411.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)
http://www.startribune.com/business/28676594.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD 3aPc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsX (http://www.startribune.com/business/28676594.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4OW3ckUiD3a Pc:_Yyc:aUnciaec8O7EyUsX)

That article has this classic paragraph:

"But experts say short-selling is a useful market tool that allows investors to sniff out trouble and keep overly optimistic companies in check. For example, short-sellers were among the first to uncover problems at Enron and WorldCom. "If you outlaw short-selling, people with bad information [about a stock but who don't own it] have no way to vote," Meschke said."


Imagine the unfairness of, for instance, knowing in advance about 911 and having no way to vote against American Airlines. The bog mindles.....

Kelly
20th September 2008, 10:53
Good for you for bringing that up! By the way folks, all the short selling that went on a couple of days before 9-11 led straight back to Deutch Bank and Israel. Funny how everybody in DC worked so very hard to cover that up...

Sushi
20th September 2008, 11:04
Can you tell me more about this?


Good for you for bringing that up! By the way folks, all the short selling that went on a couple of days before 9-11 led straight back to Deutch Bank and Israel. Funny how everybody in DC worked so very hard to cover that up...

Kelly
20th September 2008, 11:15
Yes. Let me read through this morning's posts first, and then I'll hunt up some links for you. Okay?

TechGnosis
20th September 2008, 11:29
In the meantime, here are some from the website of he of the velvet-toned voice and unfailing understatement, Alex Jones:

Insider trading immediately prior to 9/11 (http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html#trading)
(http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html#trading) (http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html#trading)

TechGnosis
20th September 2008, 11:32
Actually, i just realised I don;t know exactly what the difference is between Put Options and Short Selling. Perhaps Put Options don't involve borrowing or pretending to borrow actual shares?

Kelly
20th September 2008, 11:42
In the meantime, here are some from the website of he of the velvet-toned voice and unfailing understatement, Alex Jones:

Unfailing understatement? Bwahahahahahaha! :D

But all giggles aside, that article is a very good place for Sushi to start. Alex Jones has some excellent info.

Kelly
20th September 2008, 12:16
Here are some links to the Israeli side of the short selling too. I don't see much about this side of the equation on the Alex Jones page.

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315296.shtml

http://www.rense.com/general64/moss.htm

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/31262

If the implications that the Mossad were in on the 9-11 attacks are true, then Israel played a huge part in 9-11 as well as worked to manipulate us into the war in Iraq. They want our military in the Middle East real bad, because if we weren't there, the Arab nations would likely attack Israel in full force.

Kelly
20th September 2008, 13:06
Lynne Howard, a spokeswoman for the Chicago Board Options Exchange (CBOE), stated that information about who made the trades was available immediately. "We would have been aware of any unusual activity right away. It would have been triggered by any unusual volume. There is an automated system called 'blue sheeting,' or the CBOE Market Surveillance System, that everyone in the business knows about. It provides information on the trades - the name and even the Social Security number on an account - and these surveillance systems are set up specifically to look into insider trading. The system would look at the volume, and then a real person would take over and review it, going back in time and looking at other unusual activity."

Howard continued, "The system is so smart that even if there is a news event that triggers a market event it can go back in time, and even the parameters can be changed depending on what is being looked at. It's a very clever system and it is instantaneous. Even with the system, though, we have very experienced and savvy staff in our market-regulations area who are always looking for things that might be unusual. They're trained to put the pieces of the puzzle together. Even if it's offshore, it might take a little longer, but all offshore accounts have to go through U.S. member firms - members of the CBOE - and it is easily and quickly identifiable who made the trades. The member firm who made the trades has to have identifiable information about the client under the 'Know Your Customer' regulations (and we share all information with the Securities and Exchange Commission.)"

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/315296.shtml

In terms of short selling precious metals, it seems a given that if the Chicago Board of Options Exchange (CBOE) has the ability to immediately know just who purchased put options (same as short selling in the Commodities market) then it seems reasonable to assume that the CFTC has either the same or a similar software program.

If so, then all their excuses that they either "see no evidence of manipulation" or "have no idea who is doing it" seems like nothing but BS to me.

digger
20th September 2008, 13:14
If so, then all their excuses that they either "see no evidence of manipulation" or "have no idea who is doing it" seems like nothing but BS to me.

That's what Ted Butler's been saying for years.