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prahudka
10th September 2008, 11:12
The fall in commodities is due to hedge funds exiting commodities and investing in equities and treasuries. Commodities are all about alternate investment. Commodities had gained this year due to lack of alternate investment and the slide in equity markets. If equity markets rise then funds will reflow back into equities which will result in commodities falling. Its less than two months before the US presidential elections are over

http://news.silverseek.com/asian.php

Allegedly, the big (smart) money left the PM market for equities.

Warren Buffet was in and then sold.

Why won't the billionaires listen to us and stop doing the wrong thing with their money? Its not fair. ;)

I am laughing at myself a bit. Maybe Buffet was screwed. Does it matter? The big money is not jumping on silver in any obvious way. Mr. Hommel has a conspiracy theory that driving down the prices is a way to get out of the short market before SHTF. Could be. Are the shorts going long? We little folks just dont know. Nothing wrong with conspiracy theories, its what we do when things dont make sense, and they dont.

Of course the prices are coming up. Maybe years. Whatever.

Am I dying to cash in and invest in the DOW? I would rather kiss a pig (even with lipstick).

Is anyone here really thinking more about their silver than the overall economic issue? I know I am not. I am concerned with getting positioned for a post-election drop in the dollar and increase in oil prices. Home heating issues. Who knows what the big money (and smarter money) is really up to?


Speaking of (really super) smart money:


Wall Street Trading Gets Zero Value From Lehman, Merrill Owners

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601083&sid=aPBMl6mTFuks&refer=currency

The irony meter is giving a strong signal.

Maybe putting your money into equities is the way to get a fed bailout?

nuslvrkwen
10th September 2008, 13:08
ARE WE REALLY? Screwed by the rich? ARE THEY STILL RICH? Well - what's been goin on is all this paper manipulation/accumulation in order to pay the bills. After all this rigamarole is over will any new money making products for equities and financials come to be?

The answer is no. I'm making this statement first because the rich folks can't have left PMs if PMs were too much trouble to hold onto in the first place. According to their advisors. The banks. The banks will loan these people with great credit ratings money FOR investment...

ARE these equity or financial products WORTH foregoing physical hedge investing? YEAH, if you don't understand why you should HAVE physical hedge investments.

What's the best hedge out there? WE know the answer to this one. So I'm now putting it to you again - ARE these people really RICH? OR just so pot committed they can't move other than to do interest rate swaps and debt leveraging. Silver's down below $11 today. BUT MAYBE we people holding it have more real money compared to these rich people.

Now, if you made your money super short term by shorting paper equities and financial products (ETFs) you wouldn't be able to see your own part in the worldwide shell game. However, the way you made this money - you'd expect that way to continue until you retired or changed careers. It can't possibly maintain its' volume of trades AND make money at the same time. Not with the financial foundations (the banks) running it - running on fumes.

Investing by buying precious metals is actually physically buying what would be a commodity, and considered real money! You HAVE to hold on to it to accumulate the wealth, OR have the hedge - insurance against inflation. The hedge doesn't transfer with every trade or completed trade transaction. The hedge against inflation has to be held in order for it to accumulate.

So the whole premise of investing this way is being questioned because it may actually lead the investor down a path that ultimately pays off the banks leaving the investor holding the bag! So I'm saying I'm not so sure WE on this forum ARE screwed by the rich. We may just be out of the way enough to give them plenty of room to strangle themselves.

prahudka
10th September 2008, 13:28
[QUOTE]ARE WE REALLY? Screwed by the rich? ARE THEY STILL RICH? Well - what's been goin on is all this paper manipulation/accumulation in order to pay the bills. After all this rigamarole is over will any new money making products for equities and financials come to be?

I am addicted to double entendre. On one hand, no one doing what they want with their own money is screwing anyone. I am also curious about what the smart money aren't heeding the call to corner the silver shorts, if it is such a great deal.

I have to say, I am concerned about whether these paper instruments will be worth much at all. As I noted, the smart money apparently thought Lehman was a better deal than silver stocks, or whatever. How smart were they? Depends how the bailout works, I guess.

Remember that last records spike in silver? That was when Bear went down.

However, I have to say I am too cautious to start telling the billionaires that I am smarter than they are. They apparently know how to pick the carcass of a wall street dinosaur better than I do.


The answer is no. I'm making this statement first because the rich folks can't have left PMs if PMs were too much trouble to hold onto in the first place. According to their advisors. The banks. The banks will loan these people with great credit ratings money FOR investment...

ARE these equity or financial products WORTH foregoing physical hedge investing? YEAH, if you don't understand why you should HAVE physical hedge investments.


COuld be a house of cards. I understand. But, over the last 60 days, they are doing better than I am.

And still, with all this enormous opportunity, where is the big money that should be smelling the silver opportunity? I am humble about where I am, though I do believe silver will come back and I dont want the DOW or a bank CD for the reasons you cite.


What's the best hedge out there? WE know the answer to this one. So I'm now putting it to you again - ARE these people really RICH? OR just so pot committed they can't move other than to do interest rate swaps and debt leveraging. Silver's down below $11 today. BUT MAYBE we people holding it have more real money compared to these rich people.

You are correct that wealth is all relative to your comeupance and what actually can do for you in the long run. I suspect there will be some really hard falls and large fortunes ruined.

No one knows whether or not 1,000 oz bar buys a house in coming years. But, it might.

But, I do get a chuckle, at my own expense, out of the question, "Where are all the billionaire silver investors?"

nuslvrkwen
10th September 2008, 15:34
The Billionaire investors got that way shorting the market. Silver they are just learning about. Knowing they have to buy and hold physical is the 'old fashioned way' of investing. I'm having problems believing these millionaire/billionaire/trillionaire's seems everything they do has some financing behind it some where. So these are PAPER millionaires/billionaires/trillionaires the world is dealing with.

FIRST is was Auction Rate Securities. Good As Cash. Don't waste money buying a hedge like silver or gold. Then it was invest in Bear Stearns. Again, silver and gold were nothing compared to oil. Oil boomed. Oil slides. Invest in Lehman? AFTER what happened to Bear Stearns with all those 'in the know' SAYING invest in Bear Stearns? ONLY to have people or persons unknown who had insider knowledge though they may NOT have been employees - take the big corporate bank AWAY from its' owners during the weekend! Dude - the PERFECT crime.

So chuckle on Prahudka - YOU are BECOMING the billionaire silver investor you are looking for! :p

prahudka
11th September 2008, 09:59
The Billionaire investors got that way shorting the market. Silver they are just learning about. Knowing they have to buy and hold physical is the 'old fashioned way' of investing. I'm having problems believing these millionaire/billionaire/trillionaire's seems everything they do has some financing behind it some where. So these are PAPER millionaires/billionaires/trillionaires the world is dealing with.

FIRST is was Auction Rate Securities. Good As Cash. Don't waste money buying a hedge like silver or gold. Then it was invest in Bear Stearns. Again, silver and gold were nothing compared to oil. Oil boomed. Oil slides. Invest in Lehman? AFTER what happened to Bear Stearns with all those 'in the know' SAYING invest in Bear Stearns? ONLY to have people or persons unknown who had insider knowledge though they may NOT have been employees - take the big corporate bank AWAY from its' owners during the weekend! Dude - the PERFECT crime.

So chuckle on Prahudka - YOU are BECOMING the billionaire silver investor you are looking for! :p

And I didnt own any Lehman shares either.

Kelly
11th September 2008, 10:52
So the whole premise of investing this way is being questioned because it may actually lead the investor down a path that ultimately pays off the banks leaving the investor holding the bag!

Exactly. And from the looks of things, that's the way the banks have planned it.

But it's not just investors who are left holding the bag; not this time. It's every tax payer in America.

The heads of banks and hedge funds are paid HUGE salaries to make what has ultimately proven to be very, very bad decisions. In this day and age it's BAD decision making that is being rewarded. What happens to a bank that makes very bad decisions? Well, the precedent has been set; the government bails them out.

Every single dime the Fed prints up and turns over to bail out a bank is YOUR BILL. You didn't make the bad decisions. The banks did. But you and every single one of us will end up paying for it.

mick silver
11th September 2008, 17:23
http://www.321gold.com/editorials/mathid/mathid091008.html

MetalWorx
11th September 2008, 17:45
.....times does this link have to get posted?
Great article, but only need to read it once, thanks:rolleyes:


http://www.321gold.com/editorials/mathid/mathid091008.html

nuslvrkwen
11th September 2008, 17:54
The heads of banks and hedge funds are paid HUGE salaries to make what has ultimately proven to be very, very bad decisions. In this day and age it's BAD decision making that is being rewarded. What happens to a bank that makes very bad decisions? Well, the precedent has been set; the government bails them out. - Kelly

Too much stupidity running businesses today. But this stuff is not new, Kelly. Corporate America has been screwed for decades. I work for a law firm now, but I used to be a jeweler! This job pays about $20-25K a year more than running my own business. The Fannie & Freddie CEOs are all getting golden parachutes, it's expected they won't be able to get other jobs now they're out of Fannie/Freddie. Big lie, ain't it? They get these big pay outs as a reward for taking their businesses down peg by peg. I just read what I at first thought was a joke: Bank of America may be buying Lehman's? It bought Countrywide! Lawsuits and all! Cool! Does this mean if they buy Lehman's they'll also be on the hook for that debt as well? I hope they buy them before the Fed bails them out! I once worked for BOFA in their systems dept. THEY were never really solvent enough to buy anything once the hostile purchase through Nation's bank went through. They are listed 14 on the 'banks still afloat' list. Wamu is listed as #7. Maybe investors like the BOFA CEO's hairdo and suit. Why else would anyone buy them...

What's really amazing is corporations pay these guys off and shoo them out the door when they've implemented bad policy. Just following orders, right? But the people for some of the largest corps in the US who build the infrastructure of the business have to sue if they become ill as a result. They too were following orders.

hekura
11th September 2008, 19:00
As usual...thank you everyone for extremely enlightened thinking contributed to wrestling with today's situation (091108).

...I have read the thread speaking to inviting those of us who "lurk" in the background...to post, and contribute. I can only speak to my own sentiments, but I typically "lurk" in the background to garner information from many different perspectives...about this idea of holding physical PM.

I am never disappointed by my investigation of this forum.

I am occasionally compelled to offer my perspectives...but usually only to provide an oblique insight to the study of financial events. I have been so compelled by this thread, in that the comparison has been made regarding mill/bill/trill-ionaires...and those who may or may not be classified as such.

I do not presume to know...but I expect that decisions regarding these amounts of (paper) value can be quite time-consuming, and that their net effect can be far more pervasive than intended by the individual making them. I suspect that even the aforementioned mill/bill/trill individual, falls into a "herd" category, and thus, is mightily influenced by their "expert" financial counsel. It would appear that such an influence is occurring, and the collaborative leverage of these, possibly "handled" accounts, seems to present a united front away from the advisability of PM.

The other end of the spectrum vastly outweighs this vague definition of mill/bill/trill-ionaire...and seems to support the central idea of physical value, or at least the perception of. Over the last months, I have witnessed a distinct third group, championing the "middle" ground of ETF/SLV. Today, it appears as though the current high-profile and highly suspect evaporation of physical silver worth, is failing to effect the traditional wholesale abandonment of the “actual” commodity...rather, it seems to be having a polarizing effect upon those who hold the "middle" ground, on this issue. The "middle" individuals are having to identify themselves as either a mill/bill/trill (or one in the making), or they are having to align with stalwart "working-class" investors. Further, those who fiercely champion one end or the other, of this continuum, appear to be “digging-in” deeper into their positions. The difference, here, seems to be the level of "liquid" money availability required by the individual.

At the end of the day, “value” is really only about being able to draw another breath, hold close those to whom we have become attached, and celebrating the liberty of planning into the future…isn’t it?

It does not take much time for me to cursorily reflect upon the “value” of a lonely ounce of silver sitting here on my desk…nor do I require expert counsel to determine what I will do with it. What DOES consume a tremendous amount of my time, is the translation of the implications of this simple thing into global perspective. Regardless the ultimate disposition of our private financial empires, whether it consists of a lonely ounce, or a mill/bill/trill dollars, are we not going to be required at some point, to select a group with which we align our values?

My “personal” bias, at the moment, is with the idea that, “YOU are BECOMING the billionaire silver investor you are looking for!”…and I whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment that, “Every single dime the Fed prints up and turns over to bail out a bank is YOUR BILL. You didn't make the bad decisions. The banks did. But you and every single one of us will end up paying for it.” However, I believe that mill/bill/trill are just numbers…and assigning them as a measure to assess the worth of an individual is meaningless. The deeper issues surrounding this distinction are to me, where the “real” value lies.

The misuse of power and financial enterprise is a crime against all of us. Within this forum, the majority stand on holding physical PM seems to be a challenge to the established policies of secrecy, greed, and privilege. The resolution of this disparity will only serve to make all of us “rich”. Just as we are all made to suffer through wrongful government manipulation, and the dilution of debt…will we not ALL benefit from the truth?

I suspect that my lonely ounce of silver will regain its relative value, and far surpass the value of paper illusions. By itself, this single ounce will be relatively insignificant to the financial “world-to-come”…but its shifting “value” simply underscores my responsibility to the truth. There will be no joyful celebration of the shifting of “value”, at the expense of those fooled by paper promises…rather; it seems to me that the work of building a “truthful” paradigm will be just beginning. Those of us who become “rich” by holding physical PM, will likely be required to be responsible to our respective societies by generating the means for others to survive.

In other words:

When this change comes about, and holders of PM rightfully realize their respective worth…is the real “value” in just having it, or is it in spending it wisely?

To me, “Holding” PM or dollars makes absolutely no difference, unless you responsibly manage the disposition of this resource. Consequently, I suspect that the mill/bill/trill-ionaires of which you speak, do not invest in physical PM because they are not really responsible for the disposition of their funds…or at least they choose to let others determine what is best for them. Unfortunately, the illusion that, “whatever makes money” serves their best interests, for now.

I would hope that wealth transferred to a fortunate few idealists (as is represented by contributors of this forum), would result in an exciting, fun, and dynamic wave of “truthful” prosperity.

hiyosilver
11th September 2008, 19:20
I would hope that wealth transferred to a fortunate few idealists (as is represented by contributors of this forum), would result in an exciting, fun, and dynamic wave of “truthful” prosperity.


My personal observation to this forum finds that the majority of the regular posters to it are not only inquisitive and intelligent individuals, but also caring people in search of fairness and truth. We don't always agree in every detail or idea, but we gracefully work through our differences and usually find we are in agreement, just from different approaches. There can be expected to be a few driven by greed and personal gain in any crowd, but it's basically been a group here comparable to the founders of our nation who sought a union by the people and for the people, and I would be proud to be a part of a government made up of people as I've found here.

Kelly
11th September 2008, 19:50
Hekura, aside from your very insightful and thoughtful post, I think somebody here should tell you this: whether you know it or not, you write beautifully.

That's a real talent. I hope we hear more from you in the future. I'll be looking forward to reading your posts.

hekura
12th September 2008, 00:49
Thank you for your kind words. I am honored that you have found worth in the ideas I have been compelled to write about.

I'm afraid that my knowledge of technical commodity markets might be found wanting...but where technical knowledge often falls short, I am moved to fill in the picture with my spiritual perspectives.

It is a good feeling to share powerful emotion with many of you, related to the outrage of injustice, concern for our collective future, and joy about the pure principles of saving. I have learned much, here.

I am proud to be counted among you.

Kelly
12th September 2008, 00:53
Hey friend, there are some GREAT people on this forum. I've posted to hundreds of forums over the years, but the quality of people here makes this one the absolute tops on my list. True story.

balou2
12th September 2008, 01:07
Thank you for your kind words. I am honored that you have found worth in the ideas I have been compelled to write about.

I'm afraid that my knowledge of technical commodity markets might be found wanting...but where technical knowledge often falls short, I am moved to fill in the picture with my spiritual perspectives.

It is a good feeling to share powerful emotion with many of you, related to the outrage of injustice, concern for our collective future, and joy about the pure principles of saving. I have learned much, here.

I am proud to be counted among you.

Not to turn this in to a lovefest or anything, but in my short months here, I have garnered the same picture you've painted above, and feel lucky to share in the spirited debate and exchange of information that takes place here. I do NOT agree with everything here, but would not have it any other way. Thanks for making your voice heard. It's actually quite motivating.
mike

JesterJay
12th September 2008, 17:05
MOST people have something important to say, but never say it.
Glad to hear YOU ALL here.
JesterJay



Not to turn this in to a lovefest or anything, but in my short months here, I have garnered the same picture you've painted above, and feel lucky to share in the spirited debate and exchange of information that takes place here. I do NOT agree with everything here, but would not have it any other way. Thanks for making your voice heard. It's actually quite motivating.
mike