Legal Actions re: Illegal Shorts - I nominiate Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins

[Duffminster]

I recently read an article about a law firms working on Legal actions to challenge the massive illegal concentrated shorts by one or two banks that have destroyed the silver and gold markets. The thing of it is that no one seems to be offering up a name of a law firm.

I'm sick of this corruption. I just read and an article about the law firm the collected billions on behalf of the Enron Share holders. You guessed it; the name of the firm is Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins. They have a link on their site where you can report fraud. Not only am I sending links and excerpts from Ted Butler to them but I'm also sending them to every government official that allegedly represents me.

If you feel and think like I do on this subject, perhaps you can nominate a law firm or for the moment just send a fraud report to Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins. Here is the link to do that
http://www.csgrr.com/

You'll see the "report fraud link" on the left side. Obviously, unless you believe there is fraud taking place, you shouldn't report any fraud. I believe fraud is taking place. I've felt helpless against this intervention. I may not be able to beat these crooks, but I'll fight them every day and I hope other silver investors will too.

Here is the link I referenced the law firm to:
http://www.investmentrarities.com/09-02-08.html

And here is what I excerpted along with my personal story of loss in the silver and gold markets. I also mentioned I'm probably only one of millions of silver and gold investors who has been hurt by this.

"...In the following paragraphs I will outline and explain how a major bank or banks, in likely concert with the U.S. government, pulled off financial shenanigans that will literally take your breath away. This is an outrage that cannot be allowed to stand.

The recent revelations in the CFTC’s Bank Participation Report for August provided stunning proof of concentration and manipulation in the COMEX silver and gold futures markets. Two U.S. banks held a short position in COMEX silver futures, as of August 5, of 33,805 contracts, or almost 170 million ounces, an increase of 138 million ounces in one month. That increase is equal to 20% of the world mine production. If one or two entities bought or sold 20% of the annual world production of oil or wheat in a month, it would bring about a congressional feeding frenzy.

In gold, no more than 3 U.S. banks sold short in one month more than 10% of world annual mine production. This was the largest short position in gold and silver ever recorded by U.S. banks. After the massive and concentrated silver and gold short position was established by these U.S. banks, the markets experienced a historic decline in price. It all took place during the first widespread retail silver shortage in history. It is completely at odds how the law of supply and demand works.

The facts are so clear that the CFTC should have provided an immediate explanation as to why this doesn’t constitute manipulation. They should move against the manipulators just as promptly. Silence is not an option. The U.S. banks (or bank) in question are at the top of the financial food chain when it comes to size, power and importance. They are publicly owned by millions of investors. These banks are generally open about their financial dealings, which are closely scrutinized. There is an archaic rule that prevents the CFTC from revealing the identity of these banks. But there is no rule preventing these banks acknowledging they were responsible for these silver and gold short sales and explaining the economic justification behind them. These are material transactions that should be disclosed to their shareholders. Apparently transparency does not apply to manipulative transactions.

One U.S. Bank?

While the report lists two U.S. banks in silver and three in gold, it may be that only one bank, and perhaps the same bank, held the greatest amount of the total short position in silver and gold. The published data is not specific enough, but objective analysis raises the strong probability that just one bank held 30,000 or more short silver contracts (150 million ounces), and 75,000 gold contracts in the current report. What are the odds of two or three banks suddenly deciding to short unprecedented amounts of silver and gold contracts spontaneously? If it were two or three banks it would raise the issue of collusion. If it was just one U.S. bank, it would mean that bank held 34% of the entire COMEX silver market and 30% of the gold market. Such a concentration would be manipulation to any reasonable person...."

[sliver]

Well said and done......

Sliver

[strongman shelford]

the american citizens have the honor to start kicking the manipulators a$$es for once.

[hiyosilver]

The point is, if the law firms personal investments are in anything but silver and gold, they might believe they're cutting their own throats.

[Duffminster]

Here is the article I saw earlier on this subject and it was entitled:

Precious Metals Manipulation: Lawyers Prepare for Battle
http://seekingalpha.com/article/93744-precious-metals-manipulation-lawyers-prepare-for-battle

"...About two weeks ago, on August 18, 2008, I published an article titled “The Disconnect Between Supply and Demand in Gold & Silver Markets”. In the article, I explained how relatively small amounts of money can be strategically used to collapse the price of multi-billion dollar commodities markets, such as gold and silver. In short, unscrupulous manipulators can use either fictional silver/gold, or gold “swapped” to them by Central Banks, to create an artificial supply. This fake “supply” can then be strategically used to attack the price, on the futures markets, which, in turn, will profoundly affect the spot price. Collapsing the spot price can, in turn, destroy investor confidence, market stability, and the willingness of more conservative investors to take large permanent positions in precious metals. After collapsing a market, using the techniques described, unscrupulous manipulators can buy back their short contracts, from shell-shocked long position holders, at a profit.

Soon after my article was published, hard evidence of a vast change in short positioning began to emerge. The first discovery was made by tireless silver market researcher, Ted Butler. The data he found led to yet more work, and, soon, similar activities were revealed in the gold market. All this begs the question. Why would a handful of banks suddenly have the infinite wisdom to take incredibly large short positions, immediately before the unexpected rise in the value of the U.S. dollar, and the collapse of precious metals prices? Remember, these are probably the same players who got us, and themselves, into the credit crisis...."

[Duffminster]

The point is, if the law firms personal investments are in anything but silver and gold, they might believe they're cutting own throats.

I don't see how a law firms non silver assets would be in jeopardy when they choose to fight corruption in the silver and gold markets. Justice in one asset class doesn't imply harm in another, unless you are talking about the crooks who are behind the fraud.

[Kelly]

In the above article, when one clicks on the "at least one lawyer" link, http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1212764222.php
the lawyer who is apparently interested in battling CFTC and COMEX is one A. B. Goodman, Esq., Attorney at Law. The contact information was withheld in the article, but I did a search and found him right away. He is out of Fort Collins, Colorado. I couldn't find an e-mail listing for him, but this is his address: 419 Canyon Avenue # 215 Fort Collins, CO.

If anybody here wants to write him a snail mail letter and express their support for a class action lawsuit against the banks involved in PM manipulation, I sure don't think it would hurt the cause.

I am personally delighted to see an attorney finally expressing his rather informed opinion as to the level of illegal manipulation that is going on. If you go to the above link and read the letter he wrote to the CFTC, he certainly seems to be fully aware of who is really behind it and why.

[Duffminster]

The manipulation today is incredible. In my opinion, this is the most blatant criminal activity in the markets I am aware of at any time in this nation and by the very government charged with upholding the laws.

Today, OPEC cuts oil output to Sept 2007 levels, Hurrican Ike is heading in and looks like it could be bigger than Katrina, Lehman announces horrific news and yet the dollar is up, gold and silver are crushed and the stock market is roaring.

There is not a single fundamental reason that holds water for any of these price movement. The hand of central banks (probably not just US) is all over this and its getting to the point where investors either stand up or these criminals will steal every dime they have.

[JaySpizzy]

The manipulation today is incredible. In my opinion, this is the most blatant criminal activity in the markets I am aware of at any time in this nation and by the very government charged with upholding the laws.

Today, OPEC cuts oil output to Sept 2007 levels, Hurrican Ike is heading in and looks like it could be bigger than Katrina, Lehman announces horrific news and yet the dollar is up, gold and silver are crushed and the stock market is roaring.

There is not a single fundamental reason that holds water for any of these price movement. The hand of central banks (probably not just US) is all over this and its getting to the point where investors either stand up or these criminals will steal every dime they have.

Yes. Fundamental and Technical Analysis are both OUT the window!
The only thing that works to unveil the silver price is CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION!!!

[Kelly]

The only thing that works to unveil the silver price is CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION!!!

Hear, Hear! Ohhhhhh, bring it on baby, bring it on! I'd like to see these pricks spend the rest of their sick, sorry lives in a Federal prison.

[Duffminster]

In the above article, when one clicks on the "at least one lawyer" link, http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1212764222.php
the lawyer who is apparently interested in battling CFTC and COMEX is one A. B. Goodman, Esq., Attorney at Law. The contact information was withheld in the article, but I did a search and found him right away. He is out of Fort Collins, Colorado. I couldn't find an e-mail listing for him, but this is his address: 419 Canyon Avenue # 215 Fort Collins, CO.

If anybody here wants to write him a snail mail letter and express their support for a class action lawsuit against the banks involved in PM manipulation, I sure don't think it would hurt the cause.

I am personally delighted to see an attorney finally expressing his rather informed opinion as to the level of illegal manipulation that is going on. If you go to the above link and read the letter he wrote to the CFTC, he certainly seems to be fully aware of who is really behind it and why.

I found the phone number for attorney but it just answers and hangs up. I believe snail mail is smart. He is probably getting swamped. I believe that a much larger firm like the one I mentioned will be required for such a case. I haven't received a reply back but I'm hoping that there are investors on this board who may have other contacts. I am confident that there are thousand's of very angry silver investors who can see the degree of fraud and illegal price manipulation taking place. Someone will need to organize the legal battle. Lets all work together to pursue this until we have a case.

Are there any legal experts on this board or do they know of a firm that is willing to take this on. It won't happen by waiting for someone else to do it. So those with the knowledge and the means must take up the banner of Liberty.

[Kelly]

Duffminster, I should think that if there was any organization in the world that had the resources and cooperation of lawyers willing to bring a class action lawsuit against the manipulators, gata.org would know who those lawyers are.

We silver freaks need to remember that gold has been targeted too, and gold has been hit hard. I doubt that it would matter one whit whether a class action lawsuit was brought against the gold manipulators rather than the silver manipulators, since they both seem to be one and the same.

[nuslvrkwen]

I agree with trying to get dialog going with law firms interested in fraud and corruption cases. Coughlin Stoia et. Al is very into Tort, Class Action and Fraud perpetrated by corporations. Concentrate on contacts through the Washington DC office. I'm also thinking this law firm already has a relationship with GATA. So inviting silver investors into this would only strengthen any class action GATA already has started.

Maybe there are GATA members in this forum that would know who's backing them on their issue. I'm thinking about that ad they put in the Wall St. Journal back in Janurary. Trying to get the fed to agree to a bullion audit. Who's the firm that's helping them with that? The Fed never responded to their request! That information would be really useful in building this case.

[Duffminster]

Unfortunately it seems like he must be getting swamped. The phone answers and then immediately hangs up.

I'm hoping that some of the smart people in the Silver investing world and among the silver miners will collaborate to initiate a law suite(s) and will begin posting where potential members of any class action can make contact and contribute to the cause.

This won't happen unless the silver investors collaborate, and work to get this done and never give up until it is done. This is about more than money, its about liberty and justice and putting an end to this tyranny of price manipulation.

[Kelly]

I agree with trying to get dialog going with law firms interested in fraud and corruption cases. Coughlin Stoia et. Al is very into Tort, Class Action and Fraud perpetrated by corporations. Concentrate on contacts through the Washington DC office. I'm also thinking this law firm already has a relationship with GATA. So inviting silver investors into this would only strengthen any class action GATA already has started.


Do you have an email address for their DC office? If they are into class action lawsuits against corporations that commit fraud, I'm not shy; I'll write them a letter!

[nuslvrkwen]

Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins LLP Phone 202-822-6762 fax:202-828-8528. Washington DC snail mail address is:1100 Connecticut Ave.; N.W.; Ste. 730 Washington, DC 20036

Now I'll list the SF office because these two offices as far as going after corp. corruption should contact each other about this.

SF Coughlin is 415-288-4545 fax 415-288-4534. It's located at 100 Pine St.; Ste. 2600 SF 94111.

I say this because it was a tiny SF firm (Scarlett Law) that was the last big stallwart against the ExxonValdez settlement that was never what it should have been after 25 years of legal rangling. Only to have the Appeals Court lower the Damages settlement. Saying Exxon had paid expenses for clean up when none of the businesses in the area of the spill have ever been able to be in business again. Scarlett specializes in maritime law. But it worked with other firms to get Exxon to pay out, what it paid out.

That said, I went back to Coughlin's site to check out what the current investigations are in case I can get a contact name from them. Maybe someone in the firm is already investigating other types of investment fraud. Coughlin WON In Re: NASDAQ Market Makers Anti-Trust Litigation. It took 3 1/2 years of intense litigation but this firm proved " NASDAQ Market Makers maintained artifical wide spreads pursuant to industry wide conspiracy." Sound familiar? NASDAQ settled (!) to the tune of $1.027 Billion. This explains why NASDAQ's numbers don't swing so much as the DOW and it didn't grow as much as the DOW has.

Hopefully Coughlin is familiar with the GATA audit request and this can grow to be the big class action we all hope for. It would be EXCELLENT if we could get dialog or press to write about it in time for the election. :p

[Duffminster]

Fellow Silver Investors,

Tomorrow the SEC will institute even stricter naked short selling rules but are they going to lift a finger against such criminal activity in other equities such as silver and other hard assets.

Doubtful. While the attention is high on criminal naked short selling, we have the opportunity to raise the inaction of the CTFC and the massive concentration of silver shorts that brought silver and then gold down.

We can not give up on this.

Has anyone received word. What can we as investors do to facilitate the most rapid pursuit of criminal and civil investigation?

Let us not stop until justice is finally brought.

[Duffminster]

I could not agree more with this statement. We need to get some PR resources in place. Does anyone have a current email list of opinion editors for TV, Radio, Magazines, and newspapers? We need to start a concerted effort and we need someone to write the press releases. If this is going to be an election issue we need to get it done now. If not, we need to get it done as soon as possible in any case.


Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins LLP Phone 202-822-6762 fax:202-828-8528. Washington DC snail mail address is:1100 Connecticut Ave.; N.W.; Ste. 730 Washington, DC 20036

Now I'll list the SF office because these two offices as far as going after corp. corruption should contact each other about this.

SF Coughlin is 415-288-4545 fax 415-288-4534. It's located at 100 Pine St.; Ste. 2600 SF 94111.

I say this because it was a tiny SF firm (Scarlett Law) that was the last big stallwart against the ExxonValdez settlement that was never what it should have been after 25 years of legal rangling. Only to have the Appeals Court lower the Damages settlement. Saying Exxon had paid expenses for clean up when none of the businesses in the area of the spill have ever been able to be in business again. Scarlett specializes in maritime law. But it worked with other firms to get Exxon to pay out, what it paid out.

That said, I went back to Coughlin's site to check out what the current investigations are in case I can get a contact name from them. Maybe someone in the firm is already investigating other types of investment fraud. Coughlin WON In Re: NASDAQ Market Makers Anti-Trust Litigation. It took 3 1/2 years of intense litigation but this firm proved " NASDAQ Market Makers maintained artifical wide spreads pursuant to industry wide conspiracy." Sound familiar? NASDAQ settled (!) to the tune of $1.027 Billion. This explains why NASDAQ's numbers don't swing so much as the DOW and it didn't grow as much as the DOW has.

Hopefully Coughlin is familiar with the GATA audit request and this can grow to be the big class action we all hope for. It would be EXCELLENT if we could get dialog or press to write about it in time for the election. :p

[Kelly]

Duffminster, you can go to congress.org and look at the left hand column. You'll see "media guide" in the column there. Click on it and you can get the info for all the major newspapers, TV and radio stations in any major city in the USA.

It's a STUPENDOUS resource!

[Duffminster]

Duffminster, you can go to congress.org and look at the left hand column. You'll see "media guide" in the column there. Click on it and you can get the info for all the major newspapers, TV and radio stations in any major city in the USA.

It's a STUPENDOUS resource!

Thanks. Here is the direct link. Now we just need a good press release. Is anyone up to the task.

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/dbq/media/

Is everyone ready to use this resource. I'll report back as I do so. Here is the piece I've written so far and I'm hoping for edits.

"...SEC 'Zero Tolerance’ on Naked Shorting - But its ok for One Or Two Banks to Crash the Silver and Gold Markets? - Hypocrisy 101 - Corruption.
http://www.hedgefund.net/publicnews/default.aspx?story=9256

While it is clear that the SEC intends to monitor and enforce this rule, which is long over due, what is also currently far from clear is whether a single finger will be lifted or a word spoken to stop the criminal enterprise of concentrated short seller manipulation in the gold and silver markets and the total lack of oversight, enforcement or transparency of these operations.

Ted Butler a silver analyst who has been trying to get people to understand this issue recently wrote:

"…Here are the facts. As of July 1, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 6,199 contracts of COMEX silver (30,995,000 ounces). As of August 5, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 33,805 contracts of COMEX silver (169,025,000 ounces), an increase of more than five-fold. This is the largest such position by U.S. banks I can find in the data, ever. Between July 14 and August 15th, the price of COMEX silver declined from a peak high of $19.55 (basis September) to a low of $12.22 for a decline of 38%. …"(I added bold for emphasis; Note Silver has recently dropped nearly all the way down to $10).
"…For gold, 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 7,787 contracts (778,700 ounces) in July, and 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 86,398 contracts (8,639,800 ounces) in August, an eleven-fold increase and coinciding with a gold price decline of more than $150 per ounce. As was the case with silver, this is the largest short position ever by US banks in the data listed on the CFTC’s site. This was put on as one massive position just before the market collapsed in price.

This data suggests other questions should be answered by banking regulators, the CFTC, or by those analysts who still doubt this market is rigged. Is there a connection between 2 U.S. banks selling an additional 27,606 silver futures contracts (138 million ounces) in a month, followed shortly thereafter by a severe decline in the price of silver? That’s equal to 20% of annual world mine production or the entire COMEX warehouse stockpile, the second largest inventory in the world. How could the concentrated sale of such quantities in such a short time not influence the price? …" (see references below for link)

If people don't start demanding transparency in and accountability and enforcement from the regulatory agencies as well as rules that accomplish that, then the government just becomes one of players in the scheme to fleece investors.

Below is a set of proposed rules I believe every believer in the value of gold and silver should all pursue with the opinion editors, all politicians reachable by e-mail or fax, other message boards, blogs and so on.
(continued)

The purpose of the following set of proposed rules is to eliminate speculation in commodities by those who have no intent to ever use the commodity, without interfering in the true purpose of what a futures market should do, namely to provide liquidity and to stabilize and guarantee prices between legitimate users and producers of commodities.


1) Futures contracts, both short and long, shall have a maximum term of one year.
2) Contracts may be rolled forward for a maximum of three years. It is then expired.
3) A contract's identity and final expiration limit travels with that contract and remains in force, even if swapped for another commodity contract.
4) On or before the final expiration date of a contract a short must physically deliver the commodity specified in the contract, a long must physically accept delivery of the commodity specified.
5) After delivery/acceptance that commodity may not enter the futures market again. (i.e. the physical holder must now do something productive with that commodity, such as fabricate it into something or break it down into smaller units for wholesale to distributors)
6) Commodities which are still in their substantially originally recognized form (such as individual 1000 Oz. bars from a 5000 Oz. contract delivery) must be stamped or otherwise identified as "Non Futures Tradable Material".

References:
http://www.investmentrarities.com/08-22-08.html
http://www.investmentrarities.com/09-02-08.html
http://www.investmentrarities.com/11-13-07.html
http://www.investmentrarities.com/11-20-07.html
http://www.investmentrarities.com/12-10-07.html
http://www.investmentrarities.com/12-18-07.html

[Duffminster]

We've slowed on this effort.

Has anyone had any feedback from the discussed law firms. I haven't as of yet. I need to work harder at this and hope you will too.

Please keep this alive as justice will only be done if the people do not give up in the face of great adversity.

Thanks for your help.

[nuslvrkwen]

Duffminster - I think we all got distracted but we should get back to this issue very soon. I'm interested in writing PR pieces or letters to media, and government, etc. Today Darren Robbins - partner from Coughlin Stoia Geller Rudman & Robbins was quoted in Bloomberg as saying "CEOs & CFOs who drew bonuses based on earnings that had to later be restated, for whatever reason, MUST automatically return the excess amount of the bonus." This statement was in reference to Lehman Brothers' bankruptcy!

We are freaking out about the amount the government is planning on spending to bail out these institutions. What we haven't come to terms with is - this class action and litigation regarding the Wall Street melt down in general will ULTIMATELY PAY for the bailout! All hundreds of trillions of dollars worth! Many of these biggest firms will try to settle the lawsuits after two years, in order to repair their reputations. Their reputations are what gave them the ability to generate as much leverage to make reckless loans and investment trades anyway! THAT's when new corporate governance rules and court rules can be implemented that would change the way business has been being run for decades now and keep this stuff from happening again.

Because of this we all have to acknowledge that this is proof the paper dollar and the dollar's value will not crash and burn anytime soon.

[Duffminster]

If you can create a template for a press release or a form letter we can send to Congress or both and post them hear, I'd be most grateful.

Also a standard complaint letter for us to send to the law firms would be very useful. I've posted a very rough letter I've used on various economic and financial message boards.

Thanks for your offer to help. This is a fight that will require staying power and follow through. I'm glad for any and all that will join in the struggle for justice on this.

Best regards,
Out for the Weekend

[nuslvrkwen]

I've printed out this thread so I can do some brainstorming on the letters you are looking for over the weekend.

I want to send a copy to Coughlin Stoia in particular; because of the 'market maker's' requests to get OFF the SEC's short selling bans list! The NASDAQ suit that Coughlin won had to do with suing NASDAQ's 'market makers' and making them change their trading practices!

We work on the formal wording for our concerns. When we get the law firm that wants to move the class action THEY will draft the wording for the complaint building the basis for the class action. All WE have to do is give enough information for the firm to determine they have a legitimate case to proceed with the class action.

[Duffminster]

nuslvrkwen,

Thanks for your help on this. Please identify anything I and other forum members can do as you complete these documents. We can mail to media (perhaps splitting the tax up by our own Senators). I'd like an actual email list ready for bulk mailing of Senators and Representatives at the State and Federal levels as well as a current list of principal editors and op-ed contacts as well as
PR types at print and other outlets.

I think having an email list of the CEO's of all silver and gold companies would be good too. Then if we can really blitz all avenues continuously, working blogs, message board and other ideas that we can collectively come up with and keep up regardless of how long it takes, we might finally bring this up some level where it finally gets on to the radar.

This issue can not be dropped even if silver climbs back to $21 and gold over $1000. Many of us know that both should be at least twice these numbers based actual supply and demand.

I await your next post and am ready to move on this.

Thanks,
Duffminster

[nuslvrkwen]

Duffminster - I'm still working on my writing, will not post what I've got tonight because I'm planning on speaking with Ron Gosling of Coughlin Stoia et. Al on the phone on Tuesday! Coughlin's Headquarter office is in San Diego of all places...

Hopefully others will see this post also: I'm printing out the suggestions for futures trading to be included in my conversation and or written dialog with Mr. Gosling regarding taking on this class action. I'll print them out so I can better discuss them. I think we just have to really check out what's been going on with this bailout to get even more information to better build our case! Are you all aware that any entity filing for bankruptcy protection and those the government took over ALL the CEOs who get golden parachutes and stock option payments MUST RETURN THEM when their entity/companies are taken over by the government.

For one thing - WHY would an investment bank use future's trading when THEY don't physically hold any commodities? Lehman/Bear Stearns/Morgan Stanley and the like didn't have ANY commodities. JPMorgan is also questionable - they are a consumer bank, but they don't SELL commodities, so why do they have access to futures trading?

I can't believe people on the street believed the US could do this bail out and stay out of a recession - what are people smoking? I also didn't like hearing when Bush signed the bailout agreement he pretty much left the amount blank, as though the bailout was a blank check! That's proof the politicos DON'T fully understand what exactly IS going on.

[Duffminster]

I believe that there is also a serious need to evaluate whether there is a conflict of interest in having Barclay's SLV physical silver under the trusteeship of JP Morgan, given the large derivatives positions that JP Morgan has.

I don't know if there is data related to this that factors into a class action, but I wouldn't leave it out of the mix of data to evaluate in the whole scenario.

[nuslvrkwen]

Hi All -

I've been trying to speak with Ron Gosling; a lawyer at Coughlin et. Al regarding taking on the current Wall Street meltdown as a class action suit. This firm sued NASDAQ regarding trading practices and won. The issues concerning trading practice and the corporations in hot water for short trading on the DOW are very similar to the NASDAQ class action. I'm more interested in talking to lawyers and lawmakers (AFTER the lawyers) because I don't believe the lawmakers have a clear idea how to resolve this issue. Our input would give the lawmakers and the lawyers a better idea of the concerns the individual investor would have concerning this anyway.

Here's my speaking points/notes regarding what I'm going to speak with Mr. Gosling about. If others can come up with more points, put them in so I can include them. It's still early in the week, Mr. Gosling is supposed to call me back, but I've got an email address for him so I'll be able to send him an email with this issue written out. That way our concerns don't fall through the cracks. I know we'll eventually do a bulk mailing to press and bloggers etc. But we have to have the nuts & bolts of this litigation worked out. Everybody else is complaining and making knee jerk suggestions that are basically unworkable. The things we've been able to observe everytime the spot price dropped is probably something other investors didn't see OR understand when it was happening.

Class Action:

Coughlin Stoia et. Al won NASDAQ Market Makers Anti-Trust Litigation. This action proved: NASDAQ Market Makers maintained artificially wide trading spreads pursuant to industry wide conspiracy. Sorry, could't get this part to STAY BOLD...

WHAT information did Coughlin Stoia pursue in order to argue its’ point? What information came from the Plaintiffs in this class action matter?

I’m sure Coughlin Stoia’s counsel has been watching events unfold in the current economic situation with regards to individual investors and those investors holding mutual funds; what information would Coughlin be interested in receiving regarding individual investors holding mutual funds in 401ks for example that current commodity speculation impacted?

Could Coughlin’s review open up dialog regarding long term manipulation of the physical commodity markets for such individual investors in physical gold and silver bullion?

Individual investors believe the broad oversight on speculation limits currently in place make for speculative manipulation of the markets.

Individual investors believe merging of futures price for commodities and the actual price for the physical commodity are two different prices. The merging of the prices in the marketplace makes for speculative manipulation of the markets.

Individual and non corporate investors are impacted by such lax oversight when prices can fluctuate rapidly downward or upward based on the amount of futures trading going on at any given time.

Individual investors also believe investment banks and commercial banks should not have access to the futures trading platform to trade commodities price when investment and commercial banks are not commodities producers or those directly responsible for funding future commodities trades. These banks speculate on ‘toxic assets’ . Equities that have been inflated. These assets are currently going through correction in value. Hedge funds get funding to protect against inflation for commodities producers, they are also impacted by the current situation.

How can a forum or group of individual investors inspire Coughlin Stoia et. Al to pursue such a test to determine if there is indeed grounds for class action litigation in this matter?

[Duffminster]

Hi,

I'm looking for additional information. I think that Bix has some very valid points in regard to naked short sales of SLV and some related issues about just what can be done as far COMEX, physical location of silver reported with SLV and somewhere buried behind wall of secrecy there may be something happening with JP Morgan's trusteeship of the SLV gold. The article is long and you may have read it, but I believe you may be able to extract germane facts from this post. Here is the link:

http://news.silverseek.com/SilverSeek/1212127200.php

[nuslvrkwen]

Rather than believe I'd been given the run around; I haven't had a call back from Ron Gosling. I emailed Mr. Robbins directly at Coughlin. He's the guy that was quoted in Bloomberg as saying CEOs that get golden parachutes and stock options from companies that go bankrupt or get taken over by the fed should give the monies back. Now with the FBI investigation; the proof of fraud can happen and those monies will come back! I don't believe Coughlin Stoia et. Al will simply let the concept of my email 'slide'. This is a great way to get a class action that would get their name out there and implement new procedural rules to protect the consumer.

Also there's so many things happening daily with this bailout. For one thing I already know it's NOT going to get passed as it was originally drawn up. The stipulation for judges to renegotiate those loans is GREAT in that it would speed up the process to re evaluate equity making it possible to renegotiate a home mortgage to pre 2004 levels when equity got over valued in the first place.

I'm all for pursuing this avenue to get our manipulation concerns out in the public discussion. But I'm worried if we don't engage some lawyer/law firm that can DO something besides just get our written concerns out there to the media, our concerns won't get discussed!

[Duffminster]

It is disappointing that you haven't heard back as of yet but in the struggle for justice, we need to pursue every available avenue in parallel.

I believe the following should be done:

1. Find alternative law firms and put the same opportunities before them.

2. Lets get our PR material together and start sending it to the following:
a. Every Silver Mining CEO and PR contact
b. Every op-ed writer for every media outlet (print and electronic)
c. Post it on every blog and bulletin board we can find

The pr should have a link to a site which like others provides a way for silver and gold investors to automatically send a form letter to their congress people and to invite others to do so. I believe there is a free site that enables us to do that. I'll look into it.

We should send press releases to alternative media organizations as well, even if they are not our political cup of tea, they may be more likely to print this kind of story. Perhaps www.truthout.org, and similiar sites like ww.counterspin.com

Whatever form of campaign we do, it needs to be with viral marketing tactics that will build a grass roots ground swell and keep the momentum moving.

The first step is to write a great press release and a form letter and then a complain letter.

Next we need to create the viral marketing engine to build the momentum and we need to get the Silver and Gold miners off their posteriors and fighting for their own survival.

If you can get the media done, I'll look at getting email address for each sector and some kind of form letter service. Then its a matter of emailing, and making phone calls to mining companies and getting people like Jim Sinclair and GATA involved where possible.

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
Edmund Burke

"The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
-Thomas Jefferson

[Duffminster]

Because of the Arcane secrecy laws that prevent the CTFC from revealing who the two large banks were, the investigation will proceed with blinders on.

We can not expect transparency or openess in today's environment unless there are major rules changes.

Who the banks were is paramount. Was either bank one of the large bullion banks or a trustee of Barclay's SLV?

If the positions were un-economical, what would the motive have been. Is either of the banks one of the major market makers for US Treasuries?

Was one of the banks involved in resolving the massive short positions of Bear Stearns. Who the bank was is central to the investigation.

I believe this may just be a token investigation to try to quash any class action litigation.

We can not stop at this time. In fact it has never been more paramount to keep up the effort.

[nuslvrkwen]

Watching what's going on right now; I KNOW WE SHOULD keep up the effort, but at this point I'm not sure about how to direct our message. There's a lot of stuff going on in the media today. It's like mis information overload. I KNOW it's 'cutting out' other ideas and information we need to know in order to proceed.

The Bailout 'back & forth' (rangling and stalling) means all the other investigations are going back & forth as to when to get started. Realize right now; the people we need to engage are working on their own agendas. Do you honestly think what we put out would get dialog started among people on the street? OR get the situation resolved any sooner? If constant letters to our representatives gets them to talk that's all well and good. They are talking now. Will they actually STOP illegal short trades? YES if there's incentive to do so. The bailout details would make the incentives. The government's stake in these businesses means they got to liquidate the assets they take on. The investigations would give insight to the state of assets being sold, downgraded in value, and traded. There's going to be regular litigation from shareholders of all these banks that are getting taken over.

My bank is WaMu for example. That bank's employees used to be able to buy its' stock directly for their retirement savings! So that group alone is going to have to sue to recoup something from the loss of value of stock that happened this year; until JP Morgan took over today. JP Morgan said new stock is supposed to be issued. How much you want to bet, those employees who can stay with them will get more shares and administration fees waived or some such pacifier? Learning WaMu's depositors took out nearly $18 BILLION in cash from the bank in the past 9 days is pretty freightening HOWEVER; I don't have a need to visit the bank. I don't feel like the sky is falling. I have no mortgages or loans with WaMu. If I did, they'd be on autopay and would pay anyway. I don't have more than $100,000.00 in my accounts there, and I'm confident the money I move through those accounts to pay my bills will actually pay out. This is NOT like all transactions stop and even with wheel barrels full of paper money you can't buy bread. Maybe that's why most people seem so apathetic. They don't have a lot of money in banks anyway. Maybe these other people know dealing with banks isn't how they will grow their wealth.

So I'm all for pursuing some kind of action. But I'm not sure what I should do YET! Other than write my government representatives. I'm confident our concerns are valid and our ideas regarding new procedures and rules for future's trades should get implemented. But I'm also willing to let what's happening happen.

[prahudka]

Because of the Arcane secrecy laws that prevent the CTFC from revealing who the two large banks were, the investigation will proceed with blinders on.

We can not expect transparency or openess in today's environment unless there are major rules changes.

Who the banks were is paramount. Was either bank one of the large bullion banks or a trustee of Barclay's SLV?

If the positions were un-economical, what would the motive have been. Is either of the banks one of the major market makers for US Treasuries?

Was one of the banks involved in resolving the massive short positions of Bear Stearns. Who the bank was is central to the investigation.

I believe this may just be a token investigation to try to quash any class action litigation.

We can not stop at this time. In fact it has never been more paramount to keep up the effort.

Funny how everyone assumes the government is disingenuous about everything. That aint the way it used to be. And, your suspicions are well grounded. CFTC is literally shameless.

[Duffminster]

During this period we must build the foundations of the ongoing efforts.

Lets write the press releases, figure out how to initiate a viral marketing plan to get the message out to the CEOs of silver mining companies, opinion editors and so on.

Online petition systems and other systems.

Also, there is the need to look several moves ahead. As I mentioned, the CTFC investigation is welcome but will they answer these questions from Ted Butler. If in fact the Working Group or ESF or the Fed was behind Ted's speculation, would the CTFC tell us? Doubtful in my opinion.

Striving to gain transparency through legislative and rule changes that would allow the public to know who holds what shorts and what longs is paramount to halting un-economic manipulation. Who the primary bank was with the massive short position is paramount to justice in the long term.

I am convinced that CTFC will strive to support their previous position on the subject. So the issues in the excerpt below are prime material for public relations and demand for inquiry. I'll try to put together a media contact list, a list of silver mining CEO email addresses or at least snail mail addresses.

If someone can come up with a letter and a press release that would be very helpful. I'll post as I put the elements together. Here is the Butler link:

http://news.silverseek.com/TedButler/1220376924.php
"...
I am going to speculate based upon the known facts. Maybe I will be proven correct, maybe not. However, the nature of this speculation is so disturbing, that I hope I am wrong. But I need to state it because if I am close to the mark, the implications for the silver market are profound.

I think the data in the COT and the Bank Participation Reports indicate that the U.S. Government may have bailed out the biggest COMEX silver short by arranging for a U.S. bank to take over their position. This coincides with JP Morgan’s takeover of Bear Stearns. In fact, it would not surprise me if the bailout was JP Morgan taking over Bear Stearns‘ short silver position, at the government‘s request. While this silver bailout (if it happened) was no doubt undertaken with financial system stability in mind, it has disturbing implications of legality and equity.

JP Morgan has been mentioned as a possible big silver and gold short. If it’s not them, it is someone like them. How many big U.S. banks fit the profile? Certainly, if JP Morgan isn’t one of the big silver or gold shorts, they can instantly dismiss such talk by stating so.

Logically, there would appear to be no way that a big money center U.S. bank would choose this time and place to suddenly decide to short 150 million ounces of silver and 7 million ounces of gold voluntarily. The banks are hemorrhaging losses due to poor quality mortgages and other ill-advised bets. They’ve cut back credit and are circling the wagons. A CEO, like Jamie Dimon, is not going to risk the wrath of shareholders with a massive and dangerous impromptu bet on the short side of precious metals. No bank CEO would, as it is too reckless to contemplate. And no CEO would do it without prior approval from the regulators.

I believe the bank involved did not seek approval, but merely followed the request of the U.S. Government to sell quantities of silver and gold to bailout the former big short. If that former big short bought back this position, we would have seen $50 or $100 silver in a flash. If my speculation is correct, someone in the government wished to prevent that. Worse, the government (most likely Treasury and the Federal Reserve) allowed the new short to further rig the market to the downside with a variety of dirty tricks.

In other words, it was the U.S. Government that arranged and sanctioned the sell-off. That the government might undermine confidence in our markets and sanction manipulation and illegal market behavior for any reason is beyond my understanding. I love this country. But I certainly don’t love our government. Nor do I trust them. What to do about it?

Well, a start is to insist that the CFTC disclose how many contracts the largest trader held short in COMEX silver and gold futures on 7/22 and 8/5. Ask them and ask your elected officials to ask them. I’m including the e-mail addresses of the commissioners and the Inspector General. ..."

[Duffminster]

Here is a link that has lots of contact information. If you look around you can find media contacts as well. Keep in mind that grass roots efforts stopped a very poorly constructed pieced of legislation from being passed and while Wall Street is throwing a fit, its an opportunity to get some real reforms included instead of just a hand out and one of these reforms should involve ending quasi-governmental interference in gold and silver prices.

http://www.conservativeusa.org/mega-cong.htm

I'm hoping that any new Bail Out Package will bring market reforms including reforms to the following:

ESF,
Working Group on Financial Markets,
Federal Reserve,
SEC,
CTFC,
Ratings Agencies,
Treasury

And Repeal of Gramm-Leach-Bliley and rules which put a stop to silver and gold price manipulation:

This is still and ideal time to do this especially given what Ted is saying about the CTFC probably just making a token investigation to White Wash the issue. If they actually find manipulation, I'll be shocked. That is why it is imperative to keep the momentum going on this issue and to not expect the CTFC to do their job correctly.

[Duffminster]

I posted this on a few message boards and am getting ready to send it to a number of opinion editors.

Please feel to use, edit and re post a more effective template. Any word from the lawyers???

Subject:

Presidential Working Group Announces Strong Support for Market Integrity??? Oil vs. Silver and Gold. The CTFC White Wash???.- I've Lost Faith in Market Regulators. (Could use a shorter subject for many message boards)

Message Body:

This is written in two Pages (both equally important). If you've ever felt like the deck was stacked on Wall Street and not in your favor this post may be of interest to you.

Today the Presidential Working Group on Financial Markets issued a statement, which included a commitment to "Market Integrity."
http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/hp1177.htm

Lets take two commodities which have shown equally dubious treatment by the regulatory bodies and their investigative and enforcement practices as just one example of what I consider failing regulation at best and corruption as likely in my opinion.

The investigation of price manipulation in the oil markets was launched with the expected policy of doing the investigation quietly before making a public announcement. See http://coltonspointtimes.blogspot.com/2008/06/us-treasury-secretary-paulson-fuels-oil.html

"…The CFTC indicated the investigation had been quietly launched six months earlier and the announcement sent shock waves through the financial sector…."

However, when the CTFC decided to conduct an investigation of silver price manipulation, they made a huge splash in the Wall Street Journal before or just as the investigation had just begun and in that publicity splash, their investigative bias was clearly affirmed in the article. (see http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122231175151874367.html

So when they are trying to do an honest investigation, they keep quite until the investigation is well under way or the case solved, but when they are doing an investigation of silver, they announce it to the world as loudly as possible and state their bias. Does this seem like a real "Support for Market Integrity?"

Here is what Theodore Butler, a noted silver analysts, had to say on the subject:
http://www.investmentrarities.com/09-29-08.html

"…Whether an entire market, like silver (or gold), is manipulated or not is a matter of utmost importance. In fact, nothing could possibly be more important. Market manipulation is a violation of law and a serious crime. Market manipulation damages everyone in the long run…."

"…Because market manipulation is the number one priority of the CFTC, any revelation that they might be investigating a manipulation in any commodity is big news. So big, in fact, that such investigations are almost always kept strictly confidential while the facts are determined. This is usually so as not to disturb the market. That the CFTC has chosen to openly reveal this silver investigation is almost unprecedented…."

"…Moreover, what makes this silver investigation a rare event is that the allegations are of a manipulation in progress. To my knowledge, all past investigations were revealed after the manipulation itself was concluded. Not only is it rare for the CFTC (or any government agency) to reveal a serious active investigation, it is unheard of to reveal an investigation of a potential crime in progress. If a regulator suspects a crime in progress you would assume the regulator would first end the suspected crime and then finish the investigation. If the regulator didn’t think there was a sufficient evidence of an ongoing crime, then why reveal that an investigation has been opened?..."

"…I think this is why there is universal expectation (including by me) that the silver investigation will be a whitewash. I know that silver is manipulated, and I’m glad to see the CFTC investigate. But I can’t help but feel suspicious of their objectivity, because they have adamantly denied such a manipulation for more than 20 years…."

"…The data is clear - one or two U.S. banks sold short the equivalent of 140 million ounces of silver in one month. That’s more than 20% of world annual mine production. Less than three U.S, banks sold more than 10% of world annual mine production of gold simultaneously. The price of silver and gold then collapsed by an historic amount. These same banks have used the sell-off as an opportunity to buy back as many of their short positions at a giant profit. Those are the facts.

It is important to put these numbers into perspective, in order to appreciate their significance. One way to do that is by comparing what just took place in silver to other commodities. If one or two U.S. banks sold short, in a period of one month, the equivalent of 20% of world annual production of corn, that would equal one million futures contracts. (25 billion bushels x 20% divided by 5000 bushels). Since the entire open interest in corn futures is one million contracts, a sudden short sale of that amount would crush the price.
If one or two U.S. banks sold short 20% of the world annual production of crude oil, that would be the equivalent of 6 million NYMEX futures contracts. (30 billion barrels x 20% divided by 1000 barrels). Since the entire open interest on the NYMEX is around 1 million contracts, a sudden sale of 6 times that amount would drive the price of oil to ten cents a barrel. It would also be market manipulation beyond question.
The CFTC doesn’t need to investigate. They only need to explain why their own data fails to prove manipulation in silver and gold.…"

Why would the government treat Silver and Gold market integrity differently than other commodities? One is because for thousands of years silver and gold have served as currencies, with many banks continuing to keep tons of Gold in their Reserves. While the US has officially declared that Gold is not money, it has allegedly maintained several thousands tons in reserve and the world over coins are still minted with Gold and Silver, including the US Liberty Dollar and the Gold Eagle among others. Many people still consider gold and silver the currency of last resort in the event that debt and corruption destroy currencies and nations, which in virtually every case has been historically true. None the less in a society where central banks, not governments control the issuance of currency (money creation) as well as debt, the existence of a more lasting store of wealth remains a threat to them. This gives further confirmation that among the people of the world, many consider gold and silver to be the only real lasting currency.

[Duffminster]

This may be incidental but it seems relevant:

This is an excerpt from the Midas report, which you can get through http://www.lemetropolecafe.com/

"...As previously reported I bought two Jan. large silver contracts from COMEX. They are paid for and HSBC in NYC has been assigned to deliver them to me. I have certificate numbers and a contact person in Manhattan. For six days now I have been calling this person every day between 3 and 10 times. The phone is never answered. There is voicemail and I have left a polite message. I have not received any response. I have also sent them a FAX politely asking for delivery.

I am now in the process of trying to contact someone higher up at HSBC to see why their custody department is not open for business.

Needless to say, they are making it very hard (ney impossible) for me to get my silver bars. I cannot wait for months as my broker says some of his clients have.

So, I checked with my broker to see what the contract says about physical delivery, terms, conditions, failure, that sort of thing. Guess what. It says nothing. These guys have rigged the game. Even though the COMEX says these contracts are PHYSICAL contracts, which certainly implies that you can pick up your silver or gold, there are no rules regarding delivery, failure, etc. I find this amazing. He said that is because they cash settle 99.9% of all contracts so they are not set up to worry about the 0.1%. Fair enough, but here is my question for lawyers who might be Café readers. Doesn’t making it constructively impossible to take possession of that which they have sold to you constitute fraud? My broker says if you make a big stink they will just give you your money back. That is not what I want. I want the friggin silver. At 11.24 per ounce. They claim to offer physical delivery, but so far that has certainly not been my experience.

So let me get this straight. The paper market dominates the physical but you cannot take possession? And the people who are running the scheme have no rules regarding delivery failure? I mean WTF? Where is the CFTC? Where is the press.

If any CAFÉ members are lawyers or know a good lawyer who is familiar with these issues I would like to hear from them. This is the weak underbelly folks. Jim Sinclair and others are right. Buy a COMEX metals contract and take delivery. I suspect that if enough of us do this they are going to have a problem.

Show me the metal!
Best,
Larry
..."

[sunsetcliff]

the grid understands only one thing.




money.



I dont know that lawyers involved will be of any help. the deal is stacked. if we scream about it=- the result could be the deal being MORE stacked, but sold off as a fix.

I dont want government to fix any more problems.

[nuslvrkwen]

I tried emailing this firm 3 times. Didn't get any replies, or negative stuff at my firm either. I believe they and other lawyers are sitting on the sidelines right now trying to figure out where they should look for strategy to actually bring these guys to court. I really applaud you Duffminster for trying so hard to figure out what else to do to get this going! But about all I can think of is it's US the people - that are going to have to bring the dialog about naked short trading and the potential for manipulation to the average consumer funds.

Oddly enough, most of the stuff that's been done by the banks is illegal. I'm even thinking the reason NASDAQ's fall though sharp hasn't killed it off completely is BECAUSE of the class action lawsuit in 2003! There's precident on law books to back up a legal argument for what we want to do. But I don't know WHY a firm just doesn't go after Wall Street. You would think some partner; a lawyer with a firm that has to bring in business - wouldn't do this as it would be almost a tort law matter. That partner would have business for years. The stuff that happened to all the banks during last spring/summer's meltdown may affect how to go about this too. Some went bankrupt, some got bailed out as they were being sold. Lots of different business movement scenerios going on that would change how a law firm would go about litigation. So the law could go after all of them.

If we KNEW a lawyer who was also a physical bullion holder; we'd be able to get some direction. Haven't found any at this firm....