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main1event
16th February 2010, 09:41
Seems this latest dip in prices has not affected the actual silver price as premiums on ASE's and GSE's are up.

Sakata
16th February 2010, 09:45
Isn't that pretty much what we should expect. It happened last time when spot dropped to $9. That is why I did not worry about buying in beliw $15. As luck would have it I happened to buy close to the bottom, but that was irrelevant. Cost + spot was pretty sure to not drop below what I paid, even is spot alone did.

Goldbrix
16th February 2010, 10:14
Everybody who is into Ag/Au Bullion or coins knows there is manipulation going on.
The problem evidently lies in that those two markets themselves are so small the regulators want bigger fish in the financial world.
Until Law Enforcement decides to investigate and hammer someone or some financial Institution ( Cough, Cough, J.P.M. Cough) this PREMIUM GAME will continue to be played.

Nobody is interested in losing money even if it is fiat. So big boys make money with their self-created "SHORTS". Then turn it around and make money as the fake low price slowly rises closer to actual market value, then begin the scheme all over again.

JMO,
Gb

What is Truth?
16th February 2010, 10:25
The premiums on generic silver jumped a few cents too. ;)

The title of this thread should had been worded Silver Eagle Premiums of $3.00.

DaleFromCalgary
16th February 2010, 11:28
The problem is that the paper silver market is disconnected from the physical silver market. The prices quoted in the media are for futures contracts which are not expected to be honoured in actual silver but rolled over into fiat currency. That is why I do not track the paper gold/silver ratio but instead use a GSR based on my own over-the-counter purchases of real bullion.

I've noticed that some bloggers get worked up over theoretical prices based on COMEX futures or ETFs. I suggest they only refer to prices they paid for bullion in hand and ignore the fraudulent paper market.

As another example, I own oil and natural gas wells in central Alberta, but the prices I get are only vaguely connected to the West Texas Intermediate futures contract. If any bloggers here are farmers, they could probably say the same for corn or wheat futures.

Sakata
16th February 2010, 11:58
The problem is that the paper silver market is disconnected from the physical silver market. The prices quoted in the media are for futures contracts which are not expected to be honoured in actual silver but rolled over into fiat currency. That is why I do not track the paper gold/silver ratio but instead use a GSR based on my own over-the-counter purchases of real bullion.

I've noticed that some bloggers get worked up over theoretical prices based on COMEX futures or ETFs. I suggest they only refer to prices they paid for bullion in hand and ignore the fraudulent paper market.

As another example, I own oil and natural gas wells in central Alberta, but the prices I get are only vaguely connected to the West Texas Intermediate futures contract. If any bloggers here are farmers, they could probably say the same for corn or wheat futures.

Once a quarter I reassess the value of the PM I hold. I never use the spot price. I take an average value of what I could sell it for on EBay (in case I want to sell small amounts, and less their fees) and what I could sell it for to APMEX if I wanted to sell large amounts. This is not an ideal estimate but it is far better than spot.

What is Truth?
17th February 2010, 19:35
I received my order from AMPEX today. I paid .49 an ounce over spot for it. We all have a choice, buy .999 silver at as low a premium as we can get it or pay much more for it because it has a certain mint mark on it and a dollar face value. It's as simple as that. .999 silver is .999 silver.

argent_pur
17th February 2010, 19:40
I'm taking Dale's advice and sticking to 10 ounce bars from now on. Just bought 30 heraeus 10 oz'ers from BD...thanks, Dale:)

Side note: I noticed silver Maples going for just > $3.00 over spot at BD.

What is Truth?
17th February 2010, 19:45
I'm taking Dale's advice and sticking to 10 ounce bars from now on. Just bought 30 heraeus 10 oz'ers from BD...thanks, Dale:)

Ten ounce bars are fine. I don't know what premium you paid on them but let's assume you paid as much as $1.50 over spot. So instead of paying $3.00 you saved $450 dollars. Now that's a heck of a lot more silver you could buy with your money isn't it?

junksilver
17th February 2010, 20:44
I received my order from AMPEX today. I paid .49 an ounce over spot for it. We all have a choice, buy .999 silver at as low a premium as we can get it or pay much more for it because it has a certain mint mark on it and a dollar face value. It's as simple as that. .999 silver is .999 silver.

Quite true, .999 is .999

Where I beg to differ is when folks lump them all in the same basket, but I will say it's good to diversify a bit. I would never advise someone to buy all 100 ounce bars or nothing but silver maples, eagles, etc.

There are some advantages to having each

argent_pur
17th February 2010, 21:30
Ten ounce bars are fine. I don't know what premium you paid on them but let's assume you paid as much as $1.50 over spot. So instead of paying $3.00 you saved $450 dollars. Now that's a heck of a lot more silver you could buy with your money isn't it?

I paid $1.10 over spot:)

Sakata
17th February 2010, 22:59
I received my order from AMPEX today. I paid .49 an ounce over spot for it. We all have a choice, buy .999 silver at as low a premium as we can get it or pay much more for it because it has a certain mint mark on it and a dollar face value. It's as simple as that. .999 silver is .999 silver.

No it is not as simple as that. Not all .999 is equal. I can be pretty confident that when I sell my ASEs I will get more for them than when I sell my generic rounds. The premium I pay up front will probably be returned to me. And when I sell my 100oz bars I will probably get even less.

Silver Oldie
18th February 2010, 00:14
I received my order from AMPEX today. I paid .49 an ounce over spot for it. We all have a choice, buy .999 silver at as low a premium as we can get it or pay much more for it because it has a certain mint mark on it and a dollar face value. It's as simple as that. .999 silver is .999 silver.


How many oz did you buy? Although in the main body of the sale announcement it may say $.49 over spot you never actually get them that low. Today, their best price for 10 oz bars is listed as $.79 over spot, yet at the right hand side of the box it says for 100+, the price is $1.04/oz. For smaller amounts than 100 it is even higher. You better go back and refigure what you paid. Also you need to factor in S/H.

What is Truth?
18th February 2010, 06:05
No it is not as simple as that. Not all .999 is equal. I can be pretty confident that when I sell my ASEs I will get more for them than when I sell my generic rounds. The premium I pay up front will probably be returned to me. And when I sell my 100oz bars I will probably get even less.

So you are more bullish of a growing ASE premium than the general price of silver bullion? Not me, the extra money saved and put into silver will grow much faster. I don't want my premium back (someday maybe), I want more silver now that will grow in value.


How many oz did you buy? Although in the main body of the sale announcement it may say $.49 over spot you never actually get them that low. Today, their best price for 10 oz bars is listed as $.79 over spot, yet at the right hand side of the box it says for 100+, the price is $1.04/oz. For smaller amounts than 100 it is even higher. You better go back and refigure what you paid. Also you need to factor in S/H.

When I bought I paid $.49 over spot (200 ounce min) plus $25 shipping. If I had to drive to my dealers I would be the better of the $25 into gasoline alone.

For those interested, APMEX will put you on an email waiting notification list for their generic silver offer.

argent_pur
18th February 2010, 08:56
I tested the "you'll get your premium back" theory yesterday at a coin shop in the area. I sold an ASE that I paid 2.50 over spot for and a generic round I paid 0.75 over spot for. I got 50 cents under spot for the generic and spot for the ASE:( Sure, the exact amounts will differ from shop to shop based on what they have in stock, but these guys said they have almost no ASE's left and hardly anyone had come in to sell silver lately; people had only been buying...which one would think would make my ASE look more attractive. In summation, it is my experience that you don't get the premium back you that paid in the first place. If anyone has a different experience, post it.

Viva 10-ounce bars!!:)

silverheartbone
18th February 2010, 09:01
Viva 10-ounce bars!!:)

After I finish my diverse accumulation plan for 732 ounces of silver stash,
I'll accumulate some 10 ounce bars for "trading" purposes.

argent_pur
18th February 2010, 09:04
732 ozs!!! LOL, heartbone, why? I just gotta know!

Sakata
18th February 2010, 09:16
I tested the "you'll get your premium back" theory yesterday at a coin shop in the area. I sold an ASE that I paid 2.50 over spot for and a generic round I paid 0.75 over spot for. I got 50 cents under spot for the generic and spot for the ASE:( Sure, the exact amounts will differ from shop to shop based on what they have in stock, but these guys said they have almost no ASE's left and hardly anyone had come in to sell silver lately; people had only been buying...which one would think would make my ASE look more attractive. In summation, it is my experience that you don't get the premium back you that paid in the first place. If anyone has a different experience, post it.

Viva 10-ounce bars!!:)

Right now Apmex is buying generic ASEs for $1.25 over spot and buying 1oz bars at spot, for a difference of $.125. There is a $3 difference on theig buy price. It seems your dealer is offering very low.

But those numbers are not the real issue. When I sell I plan on selling a lot of what I have on auction sites such as Ebay. I hope I will not have need to sell a large amount at one go. Yesterday's premiums on Ebay for ASEs were much higher than for generic bars and rounds and this is almost always the case. For example, the average price of an ASE on EBay yesterday was over $25 but for a generic round it was less than $19. Admittedly the ASE price is probably inflated by some of them being slabbed or 1996s, but it is pretty much always much higher than for generic. I am fairly confident that holding a small percentage of my silver in ASEs will reap rewards if I choose my time wisely when trying to sell.

silverheartbone
18th February 2010, 09:49
732 ozs!!! LOL, heartbone, why? I just gotta know!

I have planned on acquiring the equivalent of a $1000 face bag of %90 silver.
That is 715 ounces of silver for a fractional bag and 770 ounces for a bag of dollars.

My stash equivalent is in the form of half 90% silver, and half .999 fine silver because I do not know what will be favored in the future.

The 90% silver is in four 1/8 bags, one each dollars, halves, quarters, dimes ($125 face each).

The .999 fine is in two groups 1) government issued (20% of total stash),
and 2) generic rounds/ingots (30% of the total)

You got me, it really should be 728 ounces of silver, but roundup ounces in some groups comes out to 732 ounces which will satisfy the requirement for sure.

argent_pur
18th February 2010, 23:53
Just got 10-10 oz. NTR Metals bars for $0.90 over spot:) I'm a happy guy!!

DaleFromCalgary
19th February 2010, 15:36
"Ten ounce bars are fine. I don't know what premium you paid on them but let's assume you paid as much as $1.50 over spot. So instead of paying $3.00 you saved $450 dollars. Now that's a heck of a lot more silver you could buy with your money isn't it?"

I recently bought 25 silver Maple Leafs (as gifts) over the counter at the same time as my regular 10-ounce silver bars. The bars were 30 cents per ounce cheaper or a saving of C$3 per bar. I'm currently at about 1,900 ounces of silver, so the savings do add up over time.

I think the 10-ounce size for silver is an ideal compromise between being able to cash in small amounts of silver at a time without going over reporting limits and a reduced premium. I could buy 100-ounce bars at an even cheaper premium but these are reportable under Calgary by-laws ($2,000 is the trigger), and a 1,000-ounce bar is waving a red flag at Revenue Canada.

My gold is all 1-ounce Maple Leafs, again as a compromise between premiums and reportability.

argent_pur
20th February 2010, 01:39
I subscribe to your view of America's decline, Dale. Not overnight, but a slow ratcheting down of our standard of living, and I'm not sure I see gold or silver coins as being used as final payment in the future. Given that belief, like you said, 10 ounce bars are the perfect hybrid of premium and reportability.

I would much rather take the savings and buy more ounces than hold out hope that I'll get my premium back. The coin shop I went to didn't give me near as much as what APMEX could have, but it's not like APMEX was paying out every penny of the premium they were charging on ASE's. If someone likes ASE's great...I do...but I'll take the ten oz'ers.

This is not intended to disparage anyone, but everyone makes a big deal about the recognizability of ASE's that justify their premium. But who are we expecting to recognize them? Any coin dealer worth their salt will recognize them at any time in the future of course, but assuming we're talking about ASE's being used to barter with avg. joes in a madmax scenario, ASE's, in my experience, are recognized by virtually nobody. Maybe folks are more silver-literate in other areas. Again, if you own ASE's, great! But, is anyone's experience different in talking to people about ASE's? Do avg. folks really know much more about Silver Eagles than generic rounds? (Real question, not rhetorical)

Islandman
20th February 2010, 07:19
This is not intended to disparage anyone, but everyone makes a big deal about the recognizability of ASE's that justify their premium. But who are we expecting to recognize them? Any coin dealer worth their salt will recognize them at any time in the future of course, but assuming we're talking about ASE's being used to barter with avg. joes in a madmax scenario, ASE's, in my experience, are recognized by virtually nobody. Maybe folks are more silver-literate in other areas. Again, if you own ASE's, great! But, is anyone's experience different in talking to people about ASE's? Do avg. folks really know much more about Silver Eagles than generic rounds? (Real question, not rhetorical)[/QUOTE]

I think in a Mad Max scenario, the average Joe will become educated very quickly, and will recognize the value between ASEs and generic silver

DaleFromCalgary
20th February 2010, 08:53
The recognizability isn't that critical because we would be selling to dealers and then using the fiat currency to pay the bills. When discussing bullion with non-bugs I try to disabuse them of the idea that we would expect to pay our bills with silver or gold. The bullion is a store of value, not a medium of exchange.