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silversurfer1
9th February 2010, 07:10
Looks like we headed for "phase 2" sooner than later...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/7182739/Greek-Ouzo-crisis-escalates-into-global-margin-call-as-confidence-ebbs.html

Jake
9th February 2010, 12:32
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Relayer
9th February 2010, 19:45
How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

By Beat Balzli


Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.

Greeks aren't very welcome in the Rue Alphones Weicker in Luxembourg. It's home to Eurostat, the European Union's statistical office. The number crunchers there are deeply annoyed with Athens. Investigative reports state that important data "cannot be confirmed" or has been requested but "not received."

Creative accounting took priority when it came to totting up government debt. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,675793,00.html)Since 1999, the Maastricht rules threaten to slap hefty fines on euro member countries that exceed the budget deficit limit of three percent of gross domestic product. Total government debt mustn't exceed 60 percent.

The Greeks have never managed to stick to the 60 percent debt limit, and they only adhered to the three percent deficit ceiling with the help of blatant balance sheet cosmetics. One time, gigantic military expenditures were left out, and another time billions in hospital debt. After recalculating the figures, the experts at Eurostat consistently came up with the same results: In truth, the deficit each year has been far greater than the three percent limit. In 2009, it exploded to over 12 percent.

Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.

Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.

Fictional Exchange Rates
Such transactions are part of normal government refinancing. Europe's governments obtain funds from investors around the world by issuing bonds in yen, dollar or Swiss francs. But they need euros to pay their daily bills. Years later the bonds are repaid in the original foreign denominations.
But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.

This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer.
In previous years, Italy used a similar trick to mask its true debt with the help of a different US bank. In 2002 the Greek deficit amounted to 1.2 percent of GDP. After Eurostat reviewed the data in September 2004, the ratio had to be revised up to 3.7 percent. According to today's records, it stands at 5.2 percent.

At some point Greece will have to pay up for its swap transactions, and that will impact its deficit. The bond maturities range between 10 and 15 years. Goldman Sachs charged a hefty commission for the deal and sold the swaps on to a Greek bank in 2005.

The bank declined to comment on the controversial deal. The Greek Finance Ministry did not respond to a written request for comment.

Jim Sinclair’s Commentary
And today guess who, amongst others, downgraded the euro because of Greece.
When I see these things daily, I wonder if I am on the right planet.

goldsilber
12th February 2010, 08:52
"The Greek parliament and government are now virtually stripped of power. They're not allowed to decide on any new expenditures without EU approval. Finance Minister Giorgos Papakonstantinou is required to report every four weeks on progress made in budget restructuring.

Brussels, not Athens, now controls whether and how the austerity program takes effect. If "detailed and ongoing inspection" shows that the actual results fall short of those predicted, Almunia says, then Brussels' watchdogs will demand additional measures. There were even calls at the European Parliament last week to send a special EU representative with extensive authority to Greece. The small country has become little more than an EU protectorate."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,676507-2,00.html

bambipower
12th February 2010, 09:02
funny,

on this side of the water (us) everybody is talking about Greece. So a little country... does anybody cares? Us is doing there best to devaluate the euro. I dont believe this crap. I'm from belgium, europe.
Europe wil help greece, why dont i read about that in us newspapers?

http://www.europa-nu.nl/9353000/1/j9vvh6nf08temv0/vibtgos6pfz9?ctx=vgaxlcr0e023&start_008_05c=5

Have you seen how little greece is? http://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/world-map.gif try to find it...
And what about california? Are they doing well? I dont think so...
How big is california?

edit :

Greece Population
- 2010 estimate 11,306,183

California Population Ranked 1st in the US
- Total 36,961,664 (2009 est

Ardent Listener
12th February 2010, 09:42
"The Greek parliament and government are now virtually stripped of power. They're not allowed to decide on any new expenditures without EU approval. Finance Minister Giorgos Papakonstantinou is required to report every four weeks on progress made in budget restructuring.

Brussels, not Athens, now controls whether and how the austerity program takes effect. If "detailed and ongoing inspection" shows that the actual results fall short of those predicted, Almunia says, then Brussels' watchdogs will demand additional measures. There were even calls at the European Parliament last week to send a special EU representative with extensive authority to Greece. The small country has become little more than an EU protectorate."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,676507-2,00.html


A sign of things to come ..........

Jake
12th February 2010, 12:10
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Ardent Listener
13th February 2010, 20:53
I thought Grease was going to get bailed out.
WAH Hahpin?
Is Grease on a Slippery Slope?
Is it possible that one socialist govt doesn't
want to bail out another socialist govt?

Hmmmm--- I wonder who might come to the rescue?
Start the Printing Presses!
http://recessionreadyamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/printing-press.jpg


On the other hand why should they bail them out when they can buy them cheap later on? If the goal is a one world government then what better way for a people to lose their sovereignty than by defaulting on their debts?

Cup-of-Ruin
13th February 2010, 21:13
Bail - in criminal proceedings; the release of a prisoner from legal custody into the custody of persons acting as surities, undertaking to produce the prisoner to the court at a later date or forfeit the security deposited as a condition of the release.


Thats what 'Bail' means in English.

But in Communist NewSpeak 'Bail' means to give the wealth of poor people to the rich criminals, so that the criminals are better equiped and free to steal more wealth!

DaleFromCalgary
14th February 2010, 10:09
People fret about one-world government and a single currency, but the PIIGS situation suggests that many governments around the world will decline to join in. Far better to have your own currency and then depreciate it with high inflation to get out of debt. Greece's mistake was to join the EU, rather than it being EU's mistake was to let Greece join.

Gold is the only true one-world currency, but it imposes financial discipline which no politician anywhere wants.

fansubs_ca
15th February 2010, 01:04
Is Grease on a Slippery Slope?

I've gotta admit, that pun was funny.:D

Jake
15th February 2010, 12:02
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goldsilber
16th February 2010, 14:05
"Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.


It was obvious that not only Greece is involved. Other countries has made such business with Goldman Sachs, but they have not yet revealed it. And I'm not meaning only the pigs states.
I wonder what will happen when they too will be forced to reveal the real numbers of their debt.

Jake
20th February 2010, 18:30
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goldsilber
24th February 2010, 10:14
A sign of things to come ..........

In an attempt to rein in the shadow economy and collect more tax revenue, Greece outlaws cash transactions greater than 1500 Euros.
"From 1. Jan. 2011, every transaction above 1,500 euros between natural persons and businesses, or between businesses, will not be considered legal if it is done in cash. Transactions will have to be done through debit or credit cards."
http://seekingalpha.com/article/188441-greece-outlaws-cash-transactions-above-1500-euros-unveils-new-taxes

BTW there are people here who don't say "Goldman Sachs has helped Greece to cheat on the European Community", but "The Americans have helped ..."
Next time you send a mail to Lord Blankfein congratulate him on having defamed you and your country around Europe.

goldsilber
24th February 2010, 10:50
It was obvious that not only Greece is involved. Other countries has made such business with Goldman Sachs, but they have not yet revealed it. And I'm not meaning only the pigs states. I wonder what will happen when they too will be forced to reveal the real numbers of their debt.

LONDON (Reuters) - Italy did more than Greece to mask the state of its finances to secure euro zone entry, Greek Deputy Prime Minister Theodoros Pangalos said.
"You simply put some amounts of money in the next year ... it is what everybody did and Greece did it to a lesser extent than Italy for example," Pangalos said in an interview with BBC World Service radio broadcast on Wednesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/02/24/business/business-uk-greece-pangalos.html?_r=3&dbk

silverheartbone
24th February 2010, 11:00
Especially the United States of America.
WTFU
Time to disband the Union and leave the unholy bill with the District of Columbia.

silverheartbone
24th February 2010, 11:05
Those nations are....

Iran ~ North Korea ~ Sudan ~ Cuba ~ Libya

A.K.A. The Axis of Evil.

Iraq was on that list...
Afghanistan was on that list.....

Peace....
I mean war.

goldsilber
30th March 2010, 06:56
Woe is Greece. Athens needs to raise $67 billion to pay back creditors this year, and will still have to manage a ruinous mountain of public and governmental debt after that. The country faces default, and the European Union -- led by France and Germany -- has started to negotiate a bailout. But some Greeks' protests of austerity measures have commentators in Europe proposing more creative solutions -- such as a "euro-holiday," during which Greece would devalue its currency and thus bolster its exports; a departure from the European Economic and Monetary Union; or, even more far-fetched, Greece's ouster from the European Union. But can Europe actually kick Greece out?

In a word, no. EU bylaws provide no mechanism for expelling a member state. Indeed, the EU's laws in spirit are integrative and unifying, "conciliatory" rather than "punitive." Therefore, in letter, they provide no option for kicking a country out, no matter how much other member countries might want to. Even if Greece invaded France -- and it would take as much for Brussels to contemplate expulsion -- the European Commission, a body of ministers that initiates EU laws, would have to craft new legislation to do it.

That said, Greece could choose to withdraw from the European Union. Before the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, which came into effect on Dec. 1, 2009, there was no clear pathway for withdrawal for any member state. But the revised Article 50, or the "Exit Clause," holds that in order to leave the EU Greece would have to inform the European Council that it intends to withdraw, explaining why it no longer can meet its obligations; obtain an OK from a "qualified majority" of European Council members; and negotiate a withdrawal agreement with the consent of the European Parliament.

The process sounds straightforward, but in likelihood it would be anything but. Say Greece chose to file for withdrawal in order to take control of its own monetary policy and ease its financial crisis. Other member states, like Germany, would certainly object on a number of grounds and would head to the European courts to sort out their concerns. (Chief among them would be the impact of Greece's departure on the stability of the euro.) Resolving such disputes would take millions of dollars in legal fees and months, if not years. Plus, it is not clear what would happen if a majority of countries said no to Greece's request for withdrawal.


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/03/23/could_greece_get_kicked_out_of_the_european_union

(Any similarity with US federal laws?)

Silvature
30th March 2010, 07:21
Eritrea as well. NE corner Africa. Only financially viable country in Africa. Strangely enough, Ethiopia, their neighbor, largest and most advanced military in Africa, which invades and causes financial problems for Eritrea. Guess who subsidizes Ethiopia's military. Yep.



Those nations are....

Iran ~ North Korea ~ Sudan ~ Cuba ~ Libya

A.K.A. The Axis of Evil.

Iraq was on that list...
Afghanistan was on that list.....

Peace....
I mean war.

bambipower
30th March 2010, 08:37
as a european citizen, i think greece should get out of the Euro... they got in by lieing a lot and who needs lie'ers? Its there own problem, europe doesnt need to fix this....